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gtrenewed
Guest
Scripture tells us of the Bereans who when told of Jesus diligently searched the scriptures to see if what was told them was true. Perhaps you need to be more diligent or perhaps you are not called to this path but to slander what has renewed the journey for many and been approved by authority is what is spiritually dangerous.I have investigated, I just don’t see what other people see about it. I find it to be spiritually dangerous. I don’t think the RCC knows what it has gotten itself into by approving it.
In Christ,
Andrew
Since we do not know you, whatever your opinion is, is not worth very much. Perhaps you could give facts instead of opinion and that would be worth something. Like the people in this thread that asked a question or told of their experience. Too many times people use this forum, especially on Charismatics, to spread hateful opinions. As Christians we are held to higher standards by God so that in the world people sharing hateful opinions are protected by the first amendment to our constitution. But as brothers and sistes in Christ, we are required to give each other grace.
You should have left your post at the first sentence. To slander Charismatics as spiritually dangerous and the pope and the majesterium as incompetent is a very arrogant accusation, and so, by what authority do you proclaim to be in Christ?
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CoachSTL
Guest
Harp,I have investigated, I just don’t see what other people see about it. I find it to be spiritually dangerous. I don’t think the RCC knows what it has gotten itself into by approving it.
In Christ,
Andrew
Listen to what you are saying, “I just don’t see what other people see about it”. My point is this. Just because you don’t “see it” does not mean that “it” is not good. YOU just don’t see “it”.
Having said this, I DO see your point, and in many cases it may be true because many people may be acting too much on emotion, rather than reason, and this can be “dangerous”. But, it is not dangerous as long as people are recognizing the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Charisms are nothing new to the Church, and it is not something that the Catholic Church approves or disapproves. Charisms have been around since the start of the Church. You are charismatic in your own way too.
You are not called to like all people, just love them.
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CoachSTL
Guest
Get Renewed,
You are sounding defensive and mean. Harpazo IS entitled to his opinion whether you think they are right or wrong. A person “in the Spirit” does not talk to another in Christ like you just have done so. Having said this, Harpazo would benefit from changing his delivery.
And you too are correct. Too many times people abuse this wonderful forum.
I have seen many Catholics, renew their spirituality in a charismatic way and then “leave the Church” because they feel that their new found “faith” has broken down the make believe “walls” between Catholics and Evangelicals. The problem was that they played upon their emotion too much and it led them away from the Sacraments.
I think this is what Harpazo is trying to say, and if this is what he is saying, than he is correct to say that “it is dangerous”. But, he is incorrect to say sweepingly, that the “charismatic movement”, as we know it today, is dangerous for all.
Like Christ has stated, we are called to love everyone.
O
odinakachukwu
Guest
I thank God that we are sharing our understanding of what God is doing in His Church and in us as His children. I thank God for those who went searching the scriptures for the word “Charismatic” which may not be found in the bible. Charism was derived from Charismata and it means Spiriyual gifts. In Isaiah Chapter 11 we have a list of such gifts. In 1Cor.12 we find another list of Spiritual gifts. The word of God tells us, “My people perish for lack of knowledge”. In the letter to the Ephesians we have a list of Ministries that are found in the Church. The Charismatic gifts are meant for all Christians who are willing to take them and use them for building up the Church. Let us build up the Church by following the Church Fathers and allowing ourselves to be instruments for the spread of the good news. Christ gave out that universal command, to go to the whole world and spread the good news. Your world are the people around you. Show them Chrits, Be the light that will lead people to Christ. Thank God for His wonderful gifts.
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gtrenewed
Guest
This is what I am talking about - ‘Get Renewed’ (my name is gtrenewed) comment is a personal attack aimed at my character. These do not help the flow of discussion. This opinion of yours is not welcome, but an opinion without personal attack is. That is what I was trying to point out to Harpazo and to everyone, the broad stroke comments that assault the character may be good reality TV material but to a real religious discussion these opinions should be kept to one’s self. Harpazo is entitled to an opinion but I do not believe this forum gives them the right to go beyond an opinion to a personal attack!
If I come across as defensive it is because I have been reading these posts on Charismatics since 2004 and every thread eventually goes to personal attacks on character rather than helpful insights. I.E. charismatics are just showing off or think they are better or closer to God. These are broad strokes that do not shed any light on this renewal but express an opinion on someone’s motivation or private thoughts, maybe true maybe not, who knows since we do not know these people. Not only here but I have received these in person. Ask me a question, say it is not for you, but don’t say I am doing this just because I want attention. Say you don’t like it when I raise my hands at mass but don’t add that it’s because I want attention because you don’t know that. I consider this an attack on my character.
To say that people are leaving the church because they are emotional because they have become charismatic and this makes the renewal dangerous is ludicrous. I grew up in pre-Vatican II church where some people left because they preferred a service that was not in Latin. So by your logic the Latin mass is dangerous. People leave, people come back for various reasons, the most basic is that they are looking for that connection with God. Sometimes they don’t even know what they are looking for or why they don’t like something but if we don’t judge them but keep an open ear maybe somewhere along their journey we can help them reconnect.
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Philthy
Guest
Cant you just see the love of Christ in a person who feels the need to denigrate others?
It just reeks of a sense of self-righteousness.It is truly pathetic and foreign to anyone who has a living, vibrant relationship with Christ to feel the need to malign others…what is the point of dragging others down when you know the love God has for you in your own pitiful state? Think about it - they are so insecure in their personal relationship with God that they feel the need to attack others who have a different one. It makes no sense at all - it is primarily an emotional reaction. They are deserving of - and in great need of - our prayers.
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CoachSTL
Guest
gtrenewed,
Your comments are almost confirming everything I stated. First and foremost, I cannot see where anyone is attacking your character. If you feel that you are being attacked for how you choose to express your feelings, than this is an issue you have with yourself, and those who disagree with you. You have totally missed my point about Harpazo.
Also, Scripture clearly states that it is by our works that we can see who is in the Spirit or not. It is not by our words and expressions. Having said this, I do not care if you want to wave your hands or close your eyes or whatever. But, what I do know is that if you are disturbing ones focus on the Eucharist at Mass, then something must not be right about your actions at Mass. E.g. If I am at Mass, and a person starts shouting and singing in the middle of the Eucharsitic prayer, than I am going to wonder what the intentions of this person are about. Surely, an action that averts attention away from the Eucharist is not a sincere Christ inspired action.
My question to you would be this - I you knew that your “charismatic” actions were disturbing another’s focus on the Eucharist at Mass, would you continue to do them?
H
Harpazo
Guest
Where did I say that Charismatic Catholics were spiritually dangerous?
I apologize if you took my comments wrongly, but this is a forum and we each express our own opinions (hopefully as men and women of God). I see the “Charismatic” movement as spiritually dangerous. It smacks of mediumism. Charismatics are seeking the spirit to indwell in them and give them gifts, yet they do not know what spirit they are seeking.The reasons I see Catholics and Protestants flocking to this type of “spirituality” if one can call it that (and it IS firmly rooted in Evangelical Protestantism), is because they have lost touch with the Apostolic faith. Both Catholic and Protestant theologies (which from my opinion, I see Catholics and Protestants as two sides of the same coin) are entrenched in rationalism, leaving very little room for “mystical experience.” Yes, there are “mystics” in Catholicism, this I know. But they are few in number and are definitely exceptions.
Did not Christ say something about “an evil and adulterous generation seeks signs and wonders”? I see the Charismatic movement as completely foreign to Apostolic Christianity and why the Catholic Church has adopted it really has me puzzled. It is such a Johnny-come-lately to Christianity and attracts those looking for “experience” rather than repentance and complete conversion. The only churches that adopt “Charismatic” style worship are those with a very poor liturgical life. Obviously most Protestants are more susceptible to it because they lack much by way of liturgical life, but to see Catholics adopt it caught me a little off guard.
I have read a really great book on the subject called “Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future” by Fr. Seraphim Rose. He speaks of this subject and other subjects related to it with great depth and wisdom.
I am not about to say that people did not have sincere conversion to Christ in a charismatic activity, but I will not say that charismaticism is beneficial to the soul of the Christian.
In Christ,
Andrew
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Harpazo
Guest
I’m not talking about the emotionalism as being dangerous, per se, but the openness to “the spirit.” This openness allows for any spirit to come in, especially the demons. Many in the West have become so lax and spiritually care free that they do not recognize Satan (who we know masks as an angel of light) when he is right in their midst! People forget that Satan can deceive, yes, even in matters of the Holy Spirit. Why do you think he is called the “Great Liar”?
It’s very, very sad, I believe. Seeing Catholics adopt something from religions they consider to be heretics, to me, is very telling of the direction of the Catholic Church in the modern world.
I apologize if anyone took offense to any of my posts. It was not my intention at all for anyone to be offended.
In Christ,
Andrew
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Coco82
Guest
I don’t feel it’s a threat of any kind. The feeling that the Charismatic movement gives one is to to be a better Christian (Catholic or Protestant). It doesn’t replace something, it makes you respect these things more. Plus, Pope John Paul II spoke highly of the movement and his spiritual advisor, Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa a Charismatic himself I believe has praised it in his writings.
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Dominique1234
Guest
I think your accusations are wrong. This is one man’s opinion, not fact, and he has a right, as everyone does, to their own opinion. This is not what you call slander. It’s an opinion. His experiences with this has lead him to feel this way. That is not wrong in itself. Yes, the Catholic Church has accepted the Charisms of the Holy Spirit. But there are so many liturgical wrongs which I’ve seen first hand at Charismatic Masses. I’ve seen possession in people, not certain if it was demonic or not. I am no expert on the matters. But the convulsions and responses were inhuman… almost scary. I’ve seen priests misconstrue liturgy in the Mass so as to ‘bring the spirit into us all!!!’
Agnes Ozman, ever heard of her? Google her and you’ll know where I’m going with this. Acts 2: 4-8. Read it and understand what speaking in tongues means. This doesn’t mean that saying, “lalalalalalilililililolololollulululu” is speaking in tongues, which is what was done to me as I was being ‘prayed over’ at a Life in the Spirit seminar. I refuse to believe that this person was speaking in tongues, unless this is the language of the Angels… I thought that was Latin. But then i may be mistaken. One can never be right.
I understand what he means by ‘spiritual dangers’. I’ve seen and heard it first hand. I’ve had to deal with people going against what the Catholic Church teaches, deal with priests teaching AGAINST the Catholic Church, saying that it’s because of the Catholic Church that we have a Protestant reformation today. It’s because we’ve STUCK to our guns when it comes to dogma, doctrine and Catholic teaching.
I KNOW the Catholic Church accept the Charisms of the Holy Spirit. But to accept heresy within the Church is an utter fallacy in itself, especially when dealing with these types of characters. I’m speaking of liturgical faults, preaching against Catholicism at a Mass, allowing things that are not taught by our Faith into our Churches, etc…
God bless those who have had the gifts of the Spirit and use them humbly, honestly and with FULL AND UTTER reverence to God. Continue on your journey to Christ! God bless you ALL!
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Dominique1234
Guest
Ditto. I agree. And can be disturbing and distracting at times when one wants to pray peacefully and solemnly and not be distracted by a person tapping on the shoulder so they can hold your hand during the Pater Noster… This is not Catholic Teaching, yet te Charismatic Renewal has taught this and enforces it time and time again. NOT TAUGHT BY THE CHURCH…And when people seated behind you, during the sermon, would say, “AMEN!” to every little thing the priest says in his sermon, it works on a man’s patience and attention. I guess that’s why we must strive for perfection! haha…!
If I’m asking God for patience, the only way I’ll get it is if I go through the trials right?! God bless you!
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Philthy
Guest
Where did I say that Charismatic Catholics were spiritually dangerous?
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Philthy
Guest
I dont believe the “holding hands” issue has anything whatsoever to do with the Charismatic movement. It started long before we had any Charismatic group in our Church. Do you have any evidence that it was started or promulgated by the Charismatic movement at all or are just throwing mud?
Blessings!
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Dominique1234
Guest
During the Pater Noster, it is not allowed by the Church to hold hands. One is going against liturgy if they choose to do so. Maybe you should reflect on who your pastor was and if he was part of the movement himself when you attended Church at that time. Usually, in parishes, it’s the priest of the parish that allows these things to happen, only the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith have this right, and if it is not accepted, (which it isn’t) cannot be done.
Please follow the link: catholicdoors.com/faq/qu174.htm
I hope this answers your question. This link uses sources from Catholic teachings. Please understand the faults one is committing by holding hands.
God bless you and please, despite everything, continue your journey to Christ! I will keep you in my prayers! Pax
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gtrenewed
Guest
Quick answer - no. However consider the following:
The hypocritical Jews had works but Jesus called them whitewashed tombs because He knew the inner man according to Scripture. We can judge the outward not the inward motivation. That is why I call anything that says what another’s motivation is as character attacks. Again, you can disagree with me raising my hands but do not call me a show off because I am doing so.
Also, Scripture says our spirit bears witness with anothers spirit to confirm if we are in the Spirit. The works you speak of is found in James and shows our faith, our conversion to the Gospel.
The example you gave about distraction is legitimate. Merely raising one’s hands should not distract though if you are sincerely focused; however, shouting at an inappropriate time certainly can. At a regular Mass where the norm is not charismatic we must be sensitive to those around us who are not. At a Mass attended by mostly charismatics and announced as a charismatic Mass then one should expect more outward displays of Love towards Jesus just as King David danced before the Ark even though others thought it inappropriate.
Bottom line is that the Charismatic Renewal is just that, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the charisms, gifts, of the Holy Spirit. Like all outpourings of God they must be received by faith. It is Scrpitual, it was practised by the first Church so it has tradition, and it is approved by all Church authority. Like all things human there can be abuses. Scripture also teaches that if my walk in the Spirit disrupts your walk, then I will only do my walk in private or with other like minded people until such time as it does not disrupt you.
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gtrenewed
Guest
You contradict yourself alot - if one is converted through a charismatic activity; how can you say it is not beneficial to the soul?Where did I say that Charismatic Catholics were spiritually dangerous?
The reasons I see Catholics and Protestants flocking to this type of “spirituality” if one can call it that (and it IS firmly rooted in Evangelical Protestantism), is because they have lost touch with the Apostolic faith. Both Catholic and Protestant theologies (which from my opinion, I see Catholics and Protestants as two sides of the same coin) are entrenched in rationalism, leaving very little room for “mystical experience.” Yes, there are “mystics” in Catholicism, this I know. But they are few in number and are definitely exceptions.
Did not Christ say something about “an evil and adulterous generation seeks signs and wonders”? I see the Charismatic movement as completely foreign to Apostolic Christianity and why the Catholic Church has adopted it really has me puzzled. It is such a Johnny-come-lately to Christianity and attracts those looking for “experience” rather than repentance and complete conversion. The only churches that adopt “Charismatic” style worship are those with a very poor liturgical life. Obviously most Protestants are more susceptible to it because they lack much by way of liturgical life, but to see Catholics adopt it caught me a little off guard.
I have read a really great book on the subject called “Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future” by Fr. Seraphim Rose. He speaks of this subject and other subjects related to it with great depth and wisdom.
I am not about to say that people did not have sincere conversion to Christ in a charismatic activity, but I will not say that charismaticism is beneficial to the soul of the Christian.
In Christ,
Andrew
Myself and people I know personally have not lost the Apostolic faith, we have found we have more access to the kingdom of heaven than we knew before. These are the things of the Apostle’s faith according to Scripture, tradition, and the church authority.
We can experience the Spirit of God like the first century church did. And if we are renewed by this discovery, why is that a bad thing? Most Charismatics enjoy a more fulfilled sacramental and community life. Although, some feel persecuted and seek fellowship elsewhere where they are accepted. Some seem go off the deep end and are seen as radicals. Humanity has messed up Christianity from the beginning but this does not make Christianity dangerous. A corrupt pope, an abusive priest, or any other bad Catholic person does not make the Catholic faith dangerous. It just means that a bad person is masquerading as something he is not.
I have experienced first hand that most Evangelical Protestant denominations consider Charismatics, also known as Pentecostals, as not mainstream Christians. In fact Charismatics are not accepted at most denominations, that is why they have created their own denominations. Speaking in tongues is not accepted during services at most Protestant services except the Pentecostal denominations.
You may not like it but you have more in the Protestant world that agree with you about people displaying the gifts of the Spirit. It does not matter, God has chosen this time for a renewing, not a johnny-come-lately event but a renewing of the Apostolic gifts of the Spirit displayed by ordinary and extraordinary Christians. I feel this renewed outpouring had to be grassroots, like early Christianity, because established authority had more faith in rituals than in reality as demonstrated by the charisms. However, some in church authority were able to discern the divine outpouring and others in authority soon followed proving that authority saw it good to have reality through the rituals.
Again, if you disagree I support your right to share your opinion. Also again, I do not support as your right opinions that slander the character of the ones you disagree with. Such a comment is one where you say we are looking for “experience rather than repentance and complete conversion.” In fact, through the life in the Spirit with the charisms we experience we find renewed repentance and a path to complete conversion and that is something to get emotional about!
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gtrenewed
Guest
Simply put, if you make a statement that disagrees, I support that. If you make a statement that claims to know the motivation behind my action, I do not support that because it is slander.I think your accusations are wrong. This is one man’s opinion, not fact, and he has a right, as everyone does, to their own opinion. This is not what you call slander. It’s an opinion. His experiences with this has lead him to feel this way. That is not wrong in itself. Yes, the Catholic Church has accepted the Charisms of the Holy Spirit. But there are so many liturgical wrongs which I’ve seen first hand at Charismatic Masses. I’ve seen possession in people, not certain if it was demonic or not. I am no expert on the matters. But the convulsions and responses were inhuman… almost scary. I’ve seen priests misconstrue liturgy in the Mass so as to ‘bring the spirit into us all!!!’
Agnes Ozman, ever heard of her? Google her and you’ll know where I’m going with this. Acts 2: 4-8. Read it and understand what speaking in tongues means. This doesn’t mean that saying, “lalalalalalilililililolololollulululu” is speaking in tongues, which is what was done to me as I was being ‘prayed over’ at a Life in the Spirit seminar. I refuse to believe that this person was speaking in tongues, unless this is the language of the Angels… I thought that was Latin. But then i may be mistaken. One can never be right.
I understand what he means by ‘spiritual dangers’. I’ve seen and heard it first hand. I’ve had to deal with people going against what the Catholic Church teaches, deal with priests teaching AGAINST the Catholic Church, saying that it’s because of the Catholic Church that we have a Protestant reformation today. It’s because we’ve STUCK to our guns when it comes to dogma, doctrine and Catholic teaching.
I KNOW the Catholic Church accept the Charisms of the Holy Spirit. But to accept heresy within the Church is an utter fallacy in itself, especially when dealing with these types of characters. I’m speaking of liturgical faults, preaching against Catholicism at a Mass, allowing things that are not taught by our Faith into our Churches, etc…
God bless those who have had the gifts of the Spirit and use them humbly, honestly and with FULL AND UTTER reverence to God. Continue on your journey to Christ! God bless you ALL!
Example, let’s say you disagree with me on raising my hands during a song during Mass because you feel it is not liturgically correct. OK.
If you add that my motivation is that I want attention. NOT OK. Slander.
Also, you have lost the opportunity to convert me. Present arguments that are based in fact and now you have a chance to convert me. Such as, quoting scripture or articles of faith or other church laws or traditions. You could even say you find it distracting and that would be OK. We are to work together on our journey as brothers and sisters in Christ.
The “lalala…” exercise is wrong. It may have been well intentioned as a means to relieve fear of tongues but it is misguided. God will grant tongues to whom He will. The tongues you refer to is the gift of tongues. There is another tongues as a prayer language, the language of angels, Rom 8:26-27, 1Cor 14:2-5, Jude verse20.
Heresy you speak of seems to be just the error of men. Corrupt popes and child abusing priests are the errors of men not the heresy of the priesthood. The Charismatic Renewal is not heresy but there is error at times because a human is involved. Just as there is error by human priests but the priesthood is not heresy.
Finally, you’re opinion of reverent actions is not necessarily the end all. God enjoyed King David’s dance before the ark of the covenant even though it was considered irreverent for a King to do such a thing. Pharisees walked the streets reverently but Jesus called them hypocrites while sinners yelled out irreverently for deliverance and were granted their desire.
In a normal Mass, if we were both attending, I would not do anything that was not considered reverent according to the Bishops’ definition, just out of respect. In a Charismatic service, I just may get up and dance during a song if I felt so moved by the Holy Spirit. I would also talk with those who are clearly in error by that same Holy Spirit and have done so, bringing together others who agree that it is error so that it is by two or three witnesses that the word is established as is scriptual.
You tell me to continue on my journey, but you do not mention continuing on yours. Are you saying you have arrived and are perfect? Since St. Paul says that he had not arrived nor is perfect in Phil 3:12-16, I do not believe any of us alive have arrived. So, humility would say let us continue on our journey to be found complete in Christ.
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CWBetts
Guest
I go to Franciscan University of Steubenville, in Steubenville, Ohio. I do not consider myself a Charismatic Catholic, but the university is very active in the Charismatic Renewal. I was unaware of this when I first came to the university. What drew me here was the top-motch faculty in the theology department. I would describe myself as being mainstream, with some fairly traditional tendencies. For example, I love the Latin High Mass, and do not care for contemporary music in the Liturgy. That being said, the Charismatic Renewal may have begun “about 30 years ago” as one poster said, but baptism of the Holy Spirit (which is really what the movement is all about) has its roots in Sacred Scripture. If anyone on this thread has suggested that the movement is “dangerous,” than they are wrong, plain and simple. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is what happened at Pentecost. When we were baptized (no matter what age we were at the time), we received the Holy Spirit. The Charismatic Renewal is not about waving your hands in the air, contemporary music, or anything else so superficial. The renewal is about recapturing what we have lost. It is about recieving the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Charismatic Renewal is not Catholics adapting a “Protestant thing.” The Charismatic Renewal is reclaiming what is ours.
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