Charismatic Catholics?

[Philthy]

During the Pater Noster, it is not allowed by the Church to hold hands. One is going against liturgy if they choose to do so. Maybe you should reflect on who your pastor was and if he was part of the movement himself when you attended Church at that time. Usually, in parishes, it’s the priest of the parish that allows these things to happen, only the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith have this right, and if it is not accepted, (which it isn’t) cannot be done.

Please follow the link: catholicdoors.com/faq/qu174.htm

I hope this answers your question. This link uses sources from Catholic teachings. Please understand the faults one is committing by holding hands.

God bless you and please, despite everything, continue your journey to Christ! I will keep you in my prayers! Pax

Hi Dominique!

Sorry for the delay in replying. Thank you for the info and link. I distinctly remember speaking with my parochial vicar when the issue first arose (pun intended!) He condemned it on the spot and even had a name for the hand raising that the priest does during the prayer. As to my post, I wasnt questioning the validity of holding hands, I was questioning it having been attributed to the Charismatic movement. The allegation was put forth that it emanated from the Charismatic movement, but I dont think so. Do you have any reason to believe and proof to substantiate it was introduced and promoted by the Charismatic movement?

Blessings!

 

[Dominique1234]

Simply put, if you make a statement that disagrees, I support that. If you make a statement that claims to know the motivation behind my action, I do not support that because it is slander.

Example, let’s say you disagree with me on raising my hands during a song during Mass because you feel it is not liturgically correct. OK.
If you add that my motivation is that I want attention. NOT OK. Slander.

Also, you have lost the opportunity to convert me. Present arguments that are based in fact and now you have a chance to convert me. Such as, quoting scripture or articles of faith or other church laws or traditions. You could even say you find it distracting and that would be OK. We are to work together on our journey as brothers and sisters in Christ.

The “lalala…” exercise is wrong. It may have been well intentioned as a means to relieve fear of tongues but it is misguided. God will grant tongues to whom He will. The tongues you refer to is the gift of tongues. There is another tongues as a prayer language, the language of angels, Rom 8:26-27, 1Cor 14:2-5, Jude verse20.

Heresy you speak of seems to be just the error of men. Corrupt popes and child abusing priests are the errors of men not the heresy of the priesthood. The Charismatic Renewal is not heresy but there is error at times because a human is involved. Just as there is error by human priests but the priesthood is not heresy.

Finally, you’re opinion of reverent actions is not necessarily the end all. God enjoyed King David’s dance before the ark of the covenant even though it was considered irreverent for a King to do such a thing. Pharisees walked the streets reverently but Jesus called them hypocrites while sinners yelled out irreverently for deliverance and were granted their desire.

In a normal Mass, if we were both attending, I would not do anything that was not considered reverent according to the Bishops’ definition, just out of respect. In a Charismatic service, I just may get up and dance during a song if I felt so moved by the Holy Spirit. I would also talk with those who are clearly in error by that same Holy Spirit and have done so, bringing together others who agree that it is error so that it is by two or three witnesses that the word is established as is scriptual.

You tell me to continue on my journey, but you do not mention continuing on yours. Are you saying you have arrived and are perfect? Since St. Paul says that he had not arrived nor is perfect in Phil 3:12-16, I do not believe any of us alive have arrived. So, humility would say let us continue on our journey to be found complete in Christ.

Dear gtrenewed,

My intention is not to ‘bash’ the Charismatic movement, or bring bad tidings to it whatsoever. My intention is not to ‘convert’ you either. My intention is to bring the truth to people who seek it. I understand that one’s views may be strong, and sometimes it is obvious that some Charismatics which are overly gestural seem to bring attention to themselves. If they TRULY wished to be one with God during Holy Mass, and NOT be a distraction to everyone else, they could possibly sit at the back of the Church and wave their hands all they want during christian music playing and the Pater Noster, etc… rather than sit right in the first pew in front of everyone, distracting the priest at times as well. Obviously I’ve seen the extreme type of over emotional Charismatic. My opinion isn’t to offend either. I’m sorry if I’ve done so.

I was always taught, since I started taking Catechism classes (from my parents) beginning at 5 years old, that we must be united in our Faith, in prayer, motives, and gesture. If I personally do not agree that hand holding, which is NOT accepted by the Catholic Church, is going against Catholic teaching, then I personally need to rethink my motives as to why I am Catholic. Hence, is it only for my own personal emotional gratification? If I am to go against any teaching of the Catholic Church, or even as far as to say anything that they do not necessarily teach, then that is adding to my Faith. This adding is excommunicating me from the Faith.

I consider myself a Charismatic Catholic. But I also follow what the Holy See teaches. I shouldn’t have to ‘convert’ you if you are already a Faithful. I never claimed that you were not either, and my intention is not to do so. If you seek answers, you can do that all on your own. There are SO many resources ( Catechism of the Catholic Church, vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM Code of Canon Law, The Bible) that can be used to help one grow in their Faith.

 

[Dominique1234]

Simply put, if you make a statement that disagrees, I support that. If you make a statement that claims to know the motivation behind my action, I do not support that because it is slander.

Continued…

I cannot take credit for the last two paragraphs. It is not of the Holy See either. But it makes a good point. Out of everyone from the Old Testament, David was probably the biggest disobedient person who had first hand communication with God Himself. And he STILL disobeyed! I’d be the last one to follow what he says, THAT’S for sure! I do believe that this entire book is to show that there is still hope for the descendants of David, hence Christ. That sin and disobedience is forgivable. As God Himself forgave David for his transgressions.

In a Charismatic service, I just may get up and dance during a song if I felt so moved by the Holy Spirit. I just hope that if you did so, it would not be during a Mass, because that would not be liturgically correct. These are the wrongs I speak of. I am sure this is not what you thought I meant. There’s a difference between Mass and a Praise and Worship service, I hope you know that right? Which I’m sure you do. I speak of those who deliberatly sit in the front pew doing aerobic exercises, it seems, during the liturgical songs of the Holy Mass.

Have you ever watched any videos on youtube concerning liturgical wrongs at Mass? You can find all kinds of videos relating to this. Here’s one in particular that I just love… youtube.com/watch?v=SZ6KWt49wIA

All one needs to do is look for it. I’m not saying that these things are lead by Charismatic movements, but it seems to they are the most likely candidates. I’m assuming I know. Why do I say this? Because any orthodox, traditional Catholic would NEVER allow this in their parish. Nor would a Traditional priest or bishop. Again, I’m not saying it’s from the Charismatic movement, but it is from a source where emotion is leading the people rather than the soul.

I know this is a debate on whether this is right or wrong. The main issue is that there are wrongs in the movement, as there are wrongs being done in our Churches… hence the clown Mass… sickening.

As for sending blessings your way. I’m sorry if you think that I am perfect. This is NOT the case, and I never claimed to be. I hope you can rethink how you view me. I would not want you to have futile jealous feelings for something that isn’t true. I am FAR from perfect and need prayers like everyone else. If you could, please pray for me, as I am a sinner.

My statement was only to encourage you rather than discourage you from seeking God’s help in all aspects of your life, as I seek God in the same way. It works for me, as I’m sure it would for you. I hope that this is not offending, because I’m a firm believer that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. (Hence, bring back our Church to the way it was, as Pope Benedict XVI is doing. Kneeling for communion, solemnity and peace during Mass, gregorian chant, etc. Traditional, not episcopal/protestant.) But that’s a whole other subject.

When churches used to have Faithful people, meaning those who only needed faith rather than every answer in the book (there were many abuses, don’t get me wrong) there were approx. 85 % attendance at Mass. Today approximately 35% attend Mass only on a weekly basis.

I hope I bring legitimate points to the table. If you need resources, please feel free to look for them yourself. You’re an adult after all, and are quite capable of finding these things on your own, I’m sure. Continue to raise your hands all you want. The Catholic Church does not frown upon that during liturgical songs, which should be sacred music, not christian songs brought in to our Mass without Holy See approval. Would you raise your hands to Gregorian Chant? Or an Ave Maria? That’s where it’s wrong, because the liturgical music being played is going against what the Church asks of us. I feel like raising my hands to Josh Groban’s, ‘you raise me up’. That doesn’t make it Church worthy. The Pope has spoken strongly about liturgical music: ceciliaschola.org/notes/benedictonmusic.html#Active_Participation

Here’s that site. ceciliaschola.org/notes/benedictonmusic.html

Anyhow. I’m sure this is long enough. Thanks for reading, God bless and I hope this helps. In my prayers.

 

[Dominique1234]

Hi Dominique!

Sorry for the delay in replying. Thank you for the info and link. I distinctly remember speaking with my parochial vicar when the issue first arose (pun intended!) He condemned it on the spot and even had a name for the hand raising that the priest does during the prayer. As to my post, I wasnt questioning the validity of holding hands, I was questioning it having been attributed to the Charismatic movement. The allegation was put forth that it emanated from the Charismatic movement, but I dont think so. Do you have any reason to believe and proof to substantiate it was introduced and promoted by the Charismatic movement?

Blessings!

The practice started around the 1970’s in Protestant Churches, infiltrated the Catholic Charismatic movement and is now found in many Catholic Churches around the world.

The holding of hands during Holy Mass appears to be an imitation of the priest who prays with his arms outstretched. This is the traditional posture for priests and bishops during the liturgy. The U.S. Bishops have considered permitting the laity to mimic the gestures of the bishop or priest, but the Holy See has not approved this, and the 1997 Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the non-ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priests, prohibits the laity from mimicking the gestures appropriate to a priest. Specifically it states: “Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi-preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity. [ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2].”

Go to this site and see what EWTN has to say on the matter. charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/orans.html

Go about one third down the page, or read the entire article. (Orans posture) This site, however, has a very strong opinion on the matter, so if you’re offended, don’t take it up with me…

 

[DCNBILL]

The practice started around the 1970’s in Protestant Churches, infiltrated the Catholic Charismatic movement and is now found in many Catholic Churches around the world.

The holding of hands during Holy Mass appears to be an imitation of the priest who prays with his arms outstretched. This is the traditional posture for priests and bishops during the liturgy. The U.S. Bishops have considered permitting the laity to mimic the gestures of the bishop or priest, but the Holy See has not approved this, and the 1997 Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the non-ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priests, prohibits the laity from mimicking the gestures appropriate to a priest. Specifically it states: “Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi-preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity. [ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2].”

Go to this site and see what EWTN has to say on the matter. charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/orans.html

Go about one third down the page, or read the entire article. (Orans posture) This site, however, has a very strong opinion on the matter, so if you’re offended, don’t take it up with me…

I find it interesting how many people use these gestures during Mass (which are not noted in the Missal), yet there is hardly anyone who bows at the appropriate time during the Creed (which is noted in the Missal)

 

[Philthy]

The practice started around the 1970’s in Protestant Churches, infiltrated the Catholic Charismatic movement and is now found in many Catholic Churches around the world.

Is this a quote or your opinion? The reason I ask is that it makes absolutely no sense to me: the Charismatic Movement isn’t even on the radar for most Catholics - they have no idea what it is, and to think that they would somehow be influenced by it is illogical.
In addition, in my Parish, this hand holding issue was an issue before the Charismatic group began organizing. Anyhow, it doesnt really matter - in the grand scheme of things it’s the least of the problems the Catholic Church in America is facing.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

I find it interesting how many people use these gestures during Mass (which are not noted in the Missal), yet there is hardly anyone who bows at the appropriate time during the Creed (which is noted in the Missal)

Thats because most of them dont really care, Bill. That’s one of the bigger problems facing the Church in America - bowing and holding hands are relatively insignificant.
Just out of curiousity, do you have any idea why we are to bow during those 2 lines and no other, or is simply enough that it says to bow in the Missal? Im just curious because I have never once heard an explanation for it. I have my own ideas, but what do you think?

Blessings!

 

[DCNBILL]

Thats because most of them dont really care, Bill. That’s one of the bigger problems facing the Church in America - bowing and holding hands are relatively insignificant.
Just out of curiousity, do you have any idea why we are to bow during those 2 lines and no other, or is simply enough that it says to bow in the Missal? Im just curious because I have never once heard an explanation for it. I have my own ideas, but what do you think?

Blessings!

We bow because this is the part of the Creed that describes the Incarnation of God on earth. During Christmas one should kneel during this phrase.

 

[Dominique1234]

Is this a quote or your opinion? The reason I ask is that it makes absolutely no sense to me: the Charismatic Movement isn’t even on the radar for most Catholics - they have no idea what it is, and to think that they would somehow be influenced by it is illogical.
In addition, in my Parish, this hand holding issue was an issue before the Charismatic group began organizing. Anyhow, it doesnt really matter - in the grand scheme of things it’s the least of the problems the Catholic Church in America is facing.

Blessings!

If you look at the site from the previous comment, that’s where you’ll find that. And no, it is not my opinion. It’s Charismatic members who use the orans posture, which is only supposed to be used by priests, who introduced this gesture into the Mass. Most Charismatic people part of the movement will use the Orans posture in their personal worship and prayer, also at praise and worship get togethers. Not even deacons have the right to do so during a Mass. Although it is allowed during the Pater Noster in most parishes, it just goes to show where our leadership is leading us… against Catholic teaching.

 

[Dominique1234]

I find it interesting how many people use these gestures during Mass (which are not noted in the Missal), yet there is hardly anyone who bows at the appropriate time during the Creed (which is noted in the Missal)

AGREED!!!

 

[CWBetts]

If you look at the site from the previous comment, that’s where you’ll find that. And no, it is not my opinion. It’s Charismatic members who use the orans posture, which is only supposed to be used by priests, who introduced this gesture into the Mass. Most Charismatic people part of the movement will use the Orans posture in their personal worship and prayer, also at praise and worship get togethers. Not even deacons have the right to do so during a Mass. Although it is allowed during the Pater Noster in most parishes, it just goes to show where our leadership is leading us… against Catholic teaching.

The posture is hardly dogma. It is a practice, which can, and does develop over time. You are clearly overreacting to a non-threat.

 

[Coco82]

I think whether a person bows or holds hands is the least of the Church’s concerns in the US. There are a lot bigger things that hinder the Church.

 

[Philthy]

We bow because this is the part of the Creed that describes the Incarnation of God on earth. During Christmas one should kneel during this phrase.

Why does the Incarnation merit bowing whereas, say, the Crucifixion is ignored? The Father Almighty is ignored? The death of our Lord is ignored? Any ideas why this singular event is bowed at?

 

[DCNBILL]

Why does the Incarnation merit bowing whereas, say, the Crucifixion is ignored? The Father Almighty is ignored? The death of our Lord is ignored? Any ideas why this singular event is bowed at?

It would seem that for Gods work on earth, the Paschal Mystery and all the work that The Christ performed including the sending out of the Holy Spirit on the earth, The Incarnation must happen first. So instead of bowing throughout the whole of the Creed, I presume that this phrase was chosen to reverence all the work of The Christ.

 

[Philthy]

It would seem that for Gods work on earth, the Paschal Mystery and all the work that The Christ performed including the sending out of the Holy Spirit on the earth, The Incarnation must happen first. So instead of bowing throughout the whole of the Creed, I presume that this phrase was chosen to reverence all the work of The Christ.

Sounds like you dont really know - I dont know either!
Wanna hear my speculation? The humanity of Christ is probably the greatest mystery of our faith - right up there with the Trinity. One of the first heresies was the denial of Christ’s humanity. I think this bowing serves to emphasize this great mystery of the faith which simultaneously illuminates the profound dignity that God has given to all of humanity by becoming one of us.
Im sure most people bowing do so simply because it’s “the rule”, which is perhaps better than nothing. As far as the holding hands issue, I think that is a relatively natural expression of unity in prayer - a prayer that emphasizes unity in it’s first two words “Our Father…” - not “My Father” or “Father in Heaven”, but OUR Father. this is very different than, say the prayer of confession that we say “together”, but as “individuals”: “I confess…” See the difference? The Our Father would naturally draw people to a type of unity as the children of God that might reasonably be expressed by some physical expression such as holding hands. I suppose I can understand not wishing to have people imitate the priest, but I cant think of a good reason why holding hands during the Our Father is worthy of controversy. I dont do it, mind you, but I don’t merely because I know it’s inappropriate. It would be nice to know why. Perhaps someone will explain it other than to point out that it is against canon law.

 

[Philthy]

If you look at the site from the previous comment, that’s where you’ll find that. And no, it is not my opinion. It’s Charismatic members who use the orans posture, which is only supposed to be used by priests, who introduced this gesture into the Mass. Most Charismatic people part of the movement will use the Orans posture in their personal worship and prayer, also at praise and worship get togethers. Not even deacons have the right to do so during a Mass. Although it is allowed during the Pater Noster in most parishes, it just goes to show where our leadership is leading us… against Catholic teaching.

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone using the Orans posture, come to think of it. People hold hands during the Our Father. Im sure that is objectionable as well, but do you have any idea why? My post above to DCNBILL goes into some detail as to why holding hands briefly during the Our Father seems reasonably natural. What is the basis of the objection?

 

[Ignatius]

Hello,

How many of you are charismatic catholics? I am only 20 years old, but i dont feel like im Charismatic, I have a hard time trying to wave my hands during a song for our Lord… Now is this what Charismatic means? I really enjoy gettin on my knees and praying instead, thankin God for all his blessings… Am I wrong for not being Charismatic?

Thanks guys

Nope, you’re not wrong. Some of us prefer the more quiet and reverent type of worship. I know of only one out of 35 or 40 local parishes that are heavily Charismatic. You should be able to find a Catholic parish that has a more reverent type of parish.
In the top right of this webpage (catholictruth.webs.com/locateus.htm%between%) there is a “Parish Finder” link. Just click it, then enter your zipcode to find a nearby parish.

 

[DCNBILL]

Sounds like you dont really know - I dont know either!
Wanna hear my speculation? The humanity of Christ is probably the greatest mystery of our faith - right up there with the Trinity. One of the first heresies was the denial of Christ’s humanity. I think this bowing serves to emphasize this great mystery of the faith which simultaneously illuminates the profound dignity that God has given to all of humanity by becoming one of us.
Im sure most people bowing do so simply because it’s “the rule”, which is perhaps better than nothing. As far as the holding hands issue, I think that is a relatively natural expression of unity in prayer - a prayer that emphasizes unity in it’s first two words “Our Father…” - not “My Father” or “Father in Heaven”, but OUR Father. this is very different than, say the prayer of confession that we say “together”, but as “individuals”: “I confess…” See the difference? The Our Father would naturally draw people to a type of unity as the children of God that might reasonably be expressed by some physical expression such as holding hands. I suppose I can understand not wishing to have people imitate the priest, but I cant think of a good reason why holding hands during the Our Father is worthy of controversy. I dont do it, mind you, but I don’t merely because I know it’s inappropriate. It would be nice to know why. Perhaps someone will explain it other than to point out that it is against canon law.

I believe that you have an excellent point here. The generous, humble and vulnerable love that God demonstrated in The Incarnation is a great and truly awesome mystery! And very much worth our reverence.

 

[Mickey]

I’ve come to view “Charismatic Catholics” as no more than Protestants that may or may not believe in the Real Presence. This is one man’s understanding, however.

In Christ,
Andrew

Yes. it is the aping of the protestant pentecostalist movement. It was introduced at Duquesne University, Pittsburgh, Pa about 30 years ago. The history is disturbing.

 

[Mickey]

This openness allows for any spirit to come in, especially the demons. Many in the West have become so lax and spiritually care free that they do not recognize Satan (who we know masks as an angel of light) when he is right in their midst! People forget that Satan can deceive, yes, even in matters of the Holy Spirit. Why do you think he is called the “Great Liar”?

Yes. It is called prelest.