Charismatic Catholics?

[DrPiano]

While Rome hasn’t made a definitive statement (ie one that is infalliable, that MUST be held by faith), we ought to take what She says rather seriously. As the catechism says (p893)

Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magesterium at teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it. (emphasis mine)

The Church (and in particular the Popes) has repeatedly said, rather seriously, that when practiced authentically, the Charismatic Renewal is very much in line with Church teaching. For example, JPII, in his address to the World Congress of Ecclesial Movements and New Communities stated:

Whenever the Spirit intervenes, He leaves people astonished. He brings about events of amazing newness; He radically changes persons and history. This was the unforgettable experience of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council during which, under the guidance of the same Spirit, the Church rediscovered the charismatic dimension as one of her constitutive elements: “It is not only through the sacraments and the ministrations of the Church that the Holy Spirit makes holy the people, leads them and enriches them with His virtues. Allotting His gifts according as He wills (cf. 1 Cor 12:11), He also distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank….” (Lumen Gentium, # 12) The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential, as it were, to the Church’s constitution. They contribute, although differently, to the life, renewal and sanctification of God’s People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church’s charismatic dimension that, before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclesial movements and new communities. (emphasis mine) (source)

Rome speaks of the CHARISMS of the Holy Spirit, not the movement itself. The movement provides, AT TIMES, some religious education on the Charisms, but to say that EVERYONE has a gift, EVERYONE gets to speak tongues, etc… is wrong. This is false and is what is being taught today in the Charismatic movement. I’ve been to many, in different areas of the world, and I can tell you STRAIGHT UP that there is practically NO difference from one or the other… MAYBE a more reverent leader or priest including a rosary or a less lenient priest saying a more traditional Mass…

This is why, as a past Charismatic, I say what I do. You can judge a tree by it’s fruits, and **all I can say is that you have a bunch of nuns, over emotional lay people, and modernist priests getting together to ‘pray’ or ‘worship’, when in the end, it’s who can scream up to the heavens the loudest, or can cry the longest, or can ‘feel the spirit’ and roll on the ground the most times… **

I can see why these people say that it changed their lives! They’d look CRAZY if they said anything opposing that! I’m sorry… the truth hurts… take it from someone who’s known it for a LONG time. Not saying I’m perfect… FAR from it. But to avoid what’s in your face and deny the fact that it’s wrong… you get the idea…

As far as what I quoted of yours above, I think you’d find my own parish (a truly authentic Charismatic parish) very different from your previous experiences. As I stated earlier, I know that there have been warped teachings that masquerade under the guise of the “Charismatic Renewal”. It seems that your experience of the Charismatic Renewal is very different from my own. I don’t deny that there are abuses. But you cannot mistake the abuse for the authentic movement. It is not about who can scream the loudest or cry the longest or roll on the ground. That is a distorted characterization of what we do. It is a distorted characterization of what we’re about. Our goal is to be more open to the leadings of the Holy Spirit, to worship God more fully (in whatever way he directs) and to fall more deeply in love with Jesus.

What you say doesn’t hurt me. It just makes me sad that you’ve had such a terrible experience. It isn’t, however, the Truth. The Truth is that the movement has been examined by many Bishops, including people in Rome. The Truth is that to this point it has been approved and even embraced as an authentic expression of the Catholic Faith, when practiced appropriately, which includes submitting itself to the direction and authority of the Bishops and Rome. That is the Truth. And unless and until Rome decides to change her mind on the subject, I am going to give it my “religious assent” while I seek to understand it more fully - just as I would any other teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium I do not understand.

 

[CWBetts]

I don’t have a problem with any of that done in the right place at the right time. I bounce and sway with the best of them, just not at Holy Mass. It’s not in the rubrics or teachings of the Church.

I don’t mean to offend anyone, and if I did, I’m terribly sorry. My intention is to bring some truth to the table. Some things that are done in the liturgy are not part of our Faith. Anyone who opposes this cannot and should not call themselves Catholic. It’s like disagreeing with Confession but going to Communion… it just doesn’t fit. I don’t believe that it is good or correct to try and make the Catholic Church our own, or change it to our liking so that we can get a better feeling out of it.

If one leads their life this way, they don’t live for God. They live for themselves, for their own personal feelings. It’s the hard, honest truth. Hard to hear sometimes. But it’s got to be said.

God bless you and please pray for me. Thanks.

You and i are on the same page. I do not care for contemporary music in the Mass, and hands swaying in the air, at least for me, a major distraction from the Sacrifice. At the same time, a “Praise and Worship” service, that is not part of the liturgy, is perfectly fine. I have yet to meet a Charismatic that says that their form of worship is the only acceptable form. Quite to the contrary, I know of Charismatics who go to the TLM every time it is offered. The same respect unfortunately is not afforded by the traditionalists that I have come in contact with. I have stated before that I do not consider myself a Charismatic Catholic. Neither do I consider myself a traditionalist. I am a mainstream Catholic that can appreciate the enthusiasm of Charismatics and the quiet reverence of traditionalism. There is a place for both attitudes within the Church.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;6280556:

FRANKYG;6226667:

I am only 20 years old, but i dont feel like im Charismatic, I have a hard time trying to wave my hands during a song for our Lord… I really enjoy gettin on my knees and praying instead, thankin God for all his blessings… Am I wrong for not being Charismatic?

Nope, you’re not wrong. Some of us prefer the more quiet and reverent type of worship. I know of only one out of 35 or 40 local parishes that are heavily Charismatic. You should be able to find a Catholic parish that has a more reverent type of parish.
In the top right of this webpage (catholictruth.webs.com/locateus.htm) there is a “Parish Finder” link. Just click it, then enter your zipcode to find a nearby parish.

Sorry. I’ve been following this thread since the beginning and I just can’t stay silent any more. I attend a parish that is considered a “personal parish of the bishop” and has been granted special permissions to incorporate several “charismatic”

Hi Dr. Piano,

If you go back and reread the post and the one that it was a reply to (I’ve quoted it above), I think you will see that I didn’t say anything against charismatic masses.

I’ll clarify: The OP, FrankyG, wrote: " I am only 20 years old, but i dont feel like im Charismatic… Am I wrong for not being Charismatic?"

The key question, and the one I was addressing is “Am I wrong for not being Charismatic?”. In my answer, I told him that he’s not wrong, it is not manditory to be charismatic, which it is not. In fact, most parishes are not charismatic and it should be fairly easy to find a parish that is compatible with his spirituality. I then gave him a link to a parish finder so that he can find a non-charismatic parish if he wishes.

I hope this clears up what I was saying.

 

[DrPiano]

Hi Dr. Piano,

You need to read the post and the one that it was a reply to (I’ve quoted it above).

The OP, FrankyG wrote: " I am only 20 years old, but i dont feel like im Charismatic… Am I wrong for not being Charismatic?"

I told him that he’s not wrong, it is not manditory to be charismatic, which it is not. In fact, most parishes are not charismatic and it should be fairly easy to find a parish that is compatible with his spirituality. I then gave him a link to a parish finder so that he can find a non-charismatic parish if he wishes.

I hope this clears up your misunderstanding.

I actually read both I knew where you were coming from, and I agree with you that the OP should find a parish that fits his own style of worship. I think the link you gave him was great

What I did object to was the idea of contrasting charismatic with reverent. While I understand why people might think they are mutually exclusive, I wanted to point out that they are, in fact, not. They can (and really ought to be) completely compatible. That is to say although not all reverent services are charismatic, all charismatic services OUGHT TO BE reverent (although I admit that this is not always the case).

I did, however, go on to say more things that were not intended to be directed at you personally but at other comments that were made throughout the thread. If there was confusion because of that, I do apologize.

 

[Philthy]

The movement provides, AT TIMES, some religious education on the Charisms, but to say that EVERYONE…gets to speak tongues, etc… is wrong. This is false and is what is being taught today in the Charismatic movement. I’ve been to many, in different areas of the world, and I can tell you STRAIGHT UP that there is practically NO difference from one or the other… MAYBE a more reverent leader or priest including a rosary or a less lenient priest saying a more traditional Mass…

Hi Dominique!
Your experience of the movement and mine is very different. I admit that mine sounds relatively limited compared to yours - I’ve only participated in a couple of groups in my state. Nothing even remotely close to what you purport as the rule has occurred in our prayer groups. These prayer groups all happen outside of Mass - we meet once a month on Monday evenings and here is the format:

• Opening prayer - traditional format beginning with the sign of the cross
• Praise and Worship - we play some simple worship songs - sometimes members speak in tongues between songs sometimes not. There is no hand raising. No one ever falls to the ground or screams incoherently - ever.
• Period of silence - where everyone in the group is seated. If someone has a portion of Scripture to read or an “inspired thought” they share it. Sometimes members share what they perceive to be the theme of the readings/reflections, sometimes not.
• Period of sharing - how God has been active in your life. People share events/situations that give them faith and hope of God’s active presence in their lives.
• Prayer requests. We all stand and people individually but orderly share prayer requests. The Pope, all Priests and Deacons are usually included as one of the intentions offered. The souls of the unborn, those who have lost faith, family members who have lost faith, ill family members, those suffering from substance abuse, those in the military, and any such request are heard. The request ends with the individual saying, “For this we pray to the Lord” and the group responds, “Lord, hear our prayer”. At the conclusion of the intentions we usually include all those intentions as well as those in the silence of our hearts as we pray the Lord’s Prayer. Sometimes we ask for our Blessed Mothers prayers and a Hail Mary is included. No one raises there hands! We dont hold hands!
• We usually close with one last song that is uplifting, such as “How Great is Our God” or something like that. And then we all go home.

**Is this radically different from your experience? ** I’m guessing it is. It might be that we are an older group or something like that. I’d say the average age of the members of my Charismatic group is over 60. Anyhow, is this similar to your experience or not?

This is why, as a past Charismatic, I say what I do. You can judge a tree by it’s fruits, and all I can say is that you have a bunch of nuns, over emotional lay people, and modernist priests getting together to ‘pray’ or ‘worship’, when in the end, it’s who can scream up to the heavens the loudest, or can cry the longest, or can ‘feel the spirit’ and roll on the ground the most times…

This has absolutely no parallels to what I have experienced. As I said, there is no screaming, no crying, no claim of “feeling the spirit” and no rolling on the ground - ever.

I can see why these people say that it changed their lives! They’d look CRAZY if they said anything opposing that! I’m sorry… the truth hurts… take it from someone who’s known it for a LONG time. Not saying I’m perfect… FAR from it. But to avoid what’s in your face and deny the fact that it’s wrong… you get the idea…

I suppose if I were in a group that had that sort of drama I would be as jaded as you are. I simply havent had any of those weird experiences that you are talking about in our prayer group, and I honestly cant say who’s experience represents the norm. All the folks involved in our group attend Mass reverently, have active prayer lives, have active charity, read Scripture and partake of the Sacraments and are more active in the Church and community than most other members.

Blessings!

 

[Michael_Francis]

***7 posts have been pruned from his thread for uncharitable remarks or rash generalizations and responses to them.

Consider this a general warning to

---

1. 
   *]***Remain on topic, and
   

   ---

   *]Maintain the highest level of Christian charity in all your remarks.
   
   If in doubt, please carefully review this link and then post accordingly.
   Sincerely,

 

[Dominique1234]

While Rome hasn’t made a definitive statement (ie one that is infalliable, that MUST be held by faith), we ought to take what She says rather seriously. As the catechism says (p893)

The Church (and in particular the Popes) has repeatedly said, rather seriously, that when practiced authentically, the Charismatic Renewal is very much in line with Church teaching. For example, JPII, in his address to the World Congress of Ecclesial Movements and New Communities stated:

As far as what I quoted of yours above, I think you’d find my own parish (a truly authentic Charismatic parish) very different from your previous experiences. As I stated earlier, I know that there have been warped teachings that masquerade under the guise of the “Charismatic Renewal”. It seems that your experience of the Charismatic Renewal is very different from my own. I don’t deny that there are abuses. But you cannot mistake the abuse for the authentic movement. It is not about who can scream the loudest or cry the longest or roll on the ground. That is a distorted characterization of what we do. It is a distorted characterization of what we’re about. Our goal is to be more open to the leadings of the Holy Spirit, to worship God more fully (in whatever way he directs) and to fall more deeply in love with Jesus.

What you say doesn’t hurt me. It just makes me sad that you’ve had such a terrible experience. It isn’t, however, the Truth. The Truth is that the movement has been examined by many Bishops, including people in Rome. The Truth is that to this point it has been approved and even embraced as an authentic expression of the Catholic Faith, when practiced appropriately, which includes submitting itself to the direction and authority of the Bishops and Rome. That is the Truth. And unless and until Rome decides to change her mind on the subject, I am going to give it my “religious assent” while I seek to understand it more fully - just as I would any other teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium I do not understand.

I agree with you that the Charismatc renewal, when practiced authentically, can be a GREAT thing. Too bad in my experiences and tribulations, it was not. This is where one has to ask. Where does this lead? But then, how many people of the Church are trying to change what wasn’t broken to begin with? Look at what happened since Vatican II… all the misinterpretations leading to clown masses and the disbelief in the Eucharist by even our shepherds! Sad but true… PRAY FOR PRIESTS!!!

 

[Dominique1234]

Hi Dominique!
Your experience of the movement and mine is very different. I admit that mine sounds relatively limited compared to yours - I’ve only participated in a couple of groups in my state. Nothing even remotely close to what you purport as the rule has occurred in our prayer groups. These prayer groups all happen outside of Mass - we meet once a month on Monday evenings and here is the format:

• Opening prayer - traditional format beginning with the sign of the cross

Blessings!

Thank Philthy for keeping it under context and just accepting that. It’s a blessing to see that your Charismatic meetings are coherent and civilized and prayful and beautiful. This is what I am still to see.

Either way I know as a Catholic, I do not have to be a Charismatic to receive the Spirit. I got that at Baptism and again at my Confirmation. I receive Him in the Eucharist every Sunday, and the Graces through reconciliation every week as well. God bless you and keep up God’s Holy Works.

In prayer,

Dom

 

[Philthy]

I am in no way knocking those who do it. I am knocking the gesture, which is going against Church teaching. Holding hands OR the Orans posture done by the lay people is NOT right. Simple as that.

I understand that it is simple in the sense that it is against the rules, but do you have any idea WHY it would be against the rules? That is not as simple. Do you have any idea why? Just wondering…

 

[Dominique1234]

I understand that it is simple in the sense that it is against the rules, but do you have any idea WHY it would be against the rules? That is not as simple. Do you have any idea why? Just wondering…

Let’s just take EWTN’s point of view on this subject and see what they, who are faithful to the Holy See, say about all of this.

Check out this site. ewtn.net/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

 

[CWBetts]

Let’s just take EWTN’s point of view on this subject and see what they, who are faithful to the Holy See, say about all of this.

Check out this site. ewtn.net/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

Do not take this the wrong way, but how about providing us with an actual Church document, rather than just an opinion of EWTN. I love EWTN, but an article from their site is not binding. They also have articles critical of at least one theologian that I know for a fact is loyal to the Church.

 

[Dominique1234]

Do not take this the wrong way, but how about providing us with an actual Church document, rather than just an opinion of EWTN. I love EWTN, but an article from their site is not binding. They also have articles critical of at least one theologian that I know for a fact is loyal to the Church.

6 § 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 ** are to be eradicated. In Eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the Eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity. (Code of Canon law)

Just so you know, the article is from an approved Catholic theologian who studied in Rome. Here’s a little info on the guy.

Colin B. Donovan, STL
Colin Donovan is Vice President for Theology at EWTN. A layman, he has the Licentiate in Sacred Theology, with a specialization in moral theology, from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas (Angelicum) in Rome, where he wrote on the Donation of the Spouses in Marriage. He earned the BTh from the Seminary of Christ the King in Mission, BC, Canada and the BA in Biological Science from Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. Prior to coming to EWTN in 1995, he taught Theology at Aquinas College in Nashville.

 

[Dominique1234]

I understand that it is simple in the sense that it is against the rules, but do you have any idea WHY it would be against the rules? That is not as simple. Do you have any idea why? Just wondering…

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

Do you need more? This is a long read, I know, but if you truly want to educate yourself as to why, then be my guest and read it all. It will be good for every Catholic to read it, especially in the West. God bless!

 

[Faith1960]

Charismatic has nothing to do with waving your hands really, its just something that tends to happen more in Charismatic groups primarily as a function of the style of music they play. Dont feel embarrassed or forced into waving your hands if it is not a genuine expression of your love of and desire to worship God. You are very blessed to express your thanksgiving to God in silent submission on your knees - dont ever let anyone convince you otherwise. True prayer comes from the heart - the center of your being - not from your hands or from anywhere else.
There is a movement within the Church known as the Charismatic Catholic Movement. It started about 30 years ago and is basically a movement meant to focus on an awareness and effective use of the charisms of the Holy Spirit of each individual for the benefit of the Church as a whole. Various charisms are typically associated with the movement such as speaking in tongues, spiritual discernment, resting in the spirit, and several others. Typically these groups engage in forms of open praise and worship integrated with music which leads to various expressions of group prayer - this is not done during Mass, however. As an example, I belong to a group of individuals within my Parish who all went through a 7 week exploration of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and a renewal of the personal commitment to follow Christ and the development of an openess to understanding the particular gift(s) that God has given each of us for the benefit of others. Daily personal prayer time was a big part of it as well as the group worship time spent weekly. The conclusion of this exploration was the celebration of a Mass with our Priest and the participation in a Sacramental where we were anointed with holy oil and blessed by him. This was done as an act of faith to rekindle the graces we received at Baptism.
Blessings!

Philthy, did you attend a Life in the Spirit Seminar? I went a couple years ago, and I enjoyed it up until near the end, when some members layed hands on me. That, I didn’t care for. I wasn’t going to attend another one, but, here I am, going through it again after a friend kind of talked me into going.
We have some excellent speakers this time around and I’m hoping it’ll be a better experience than the first time.

 

[Dominique1234]

Do not take this the wrong way, but how about providing us with an actual Church document, rather than just an opinion of EWTN. I love EWTN, but an article from their site is not binding. They also have articles critical of at least one theologian that I know for a fact is loyal to the Church.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

Do you need more? This is a long read, I know, but if you truly want to educate yourself as to why, then be my guest and read it all. It will be good for every Catholic to read it, especially in the West. God bless!

 

[CWBetts]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

Do you need more? This is a long read, I know, but if you truly want to educate yourself as to why, then be my guest and read it all. It will be good for every Catholic to read it, especially in the West. God bless!

I am really on your side. I keep my hands folded during the Our Father. But I am very hesitant to throw around claims of “liturgical abuse” without definitive Church documents

 

[brb3]

These are the things of the Apostle’s faith according to Scripture, tradition, and the church authority.

We can experience the Spirit of God like the first century church did.

I feel this renewed outpouring had to be grassroots, like early Christianity, because established authority had more faith in rituals than in reality as demonstrated by the charisms. In fact, through the life in the Spirit with the charisms we experience we find renewed repentance and a path to complete conversion and that is something to get emotional about!

What do we know about EARLY CHURCH charismatic worship ? What ECF’s address this matter ?

The Jews were used to very solemn Temple worship. So, maybe it was hard for the Jewish Christians to get emotional … perhaps the Gentile Christians were more open to ‘expressive’ worship. I see no harm in getting EXPRESSIVE in God’s Temple [the CHURCH UNIVERSAL]. I often miss the Protestant tradition of signing PRAISES, with large Choirs, etc.

Perhaps we could compromise … and immediately after dismissal, the Praise Worship could begin. And, if some spoke in tongues … that would be interesting to witness and consider.

Again, I think the Key is fully exploring what the Early Christians did … what was Normative. Christ was a very calm person … most of the time, excepting when he was upset and expressed his anger with the Scribes/Pharisees. We are to imitate Christ. We know he was constantly in prayer to the Father. He shed many tears for his people. He agonised and bore the sorrows of his brethren [Lazarus, Mary, Martha, etc]. He enjoyed social occassions … meals/discussions with the sinful. He loved to heal the sick and comfort those with sorrows.

Bottomline … if Christ didn’t condemn a certain activity, it should be acceptable. Finally, if JP2 says its fine … that’s the strongest affirmation possible, short of finding a writing by the ECF’s on the matter.

 

[brb3]

The Charismatic Renewal is not about waving your hands in the air, contemporary music, or anything else so superficial. The renewal is about recapturing what we have lost. It is about recieving the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Charismatic Renewal is not Catholics adapting a “Protestant thing.” The Charismatic Renewal is reclaiming what is ours.

Well, singing Praises to the Lord and being Expressive isn’t ‘superficial’.
This would seem very integral to what DAVID did in his worship to the Lord.

However, did DAVID speak in tongues ? Did the Apostles speak in tongues … in the Church meetings ?

If they did … why was this ‘essential’ ingredient LOST so early to the Church ?

You say this was rediscovered 30 years ago. Please !!! Would Christ allow his Church to go for 1900 years w/o an essential aspect ?

 

[brb3]

If they TRULY wished to be one with God during Holy Mass, and NOT be a distraction to everyone else, they could possibly sit at the back of the Church and wave their hands all they want during christian music playing and the Pater Noster, etc… rather than sit right in the first pew in front of everyone, distracting the priest at times as well.

If I personally do not agree that hand holding, which is NOT accepted by the Catholic Church, is going against Catholic teaching, then I personally need to rethink my motives as to why I am Catholic.

.

OH MY !!! What planet are you on ? I’ve been in dozens of mainline Catholic Churches in USA.

All participants link up, holding hands during Lord’s Prayer … and we hold them very high during the final concluding part of Prayer. We also hold up our palms, high in the air … when we are asked to “lift up our hearts” to the Lord.

Notice those around you during this part of the Worship. Its everyone’s favorite part !! Especially the children love to engage their bodies with their brains. Also, sharing in joining hands in saying ‘Peace be with you’ … is bedrock for Catholics. Again, notice the children running about to shake hands with all they can get to within the 30 seconds time allowed. Its a beautiful expression. Peoples faces ‘lightup’ when they express and sign their neighbors with handshake of peace.

 

[Dominique1234]

OH MY !!! What planet are you on ? I’ve been in dozens of mainline Catholic Churches in USA.

All participants link up, holding hands during Lord’s Prayer … and we hold them very high during the final concluding part of Prayer. We also hold up our palms, high in the air … when we are asked to “lift up our hearts” to the Lord.

Notice those around you during this part of the Worship. Its everyone’s favorite part !! Especially the children love to engage their bodies with their brains. Also, sharing in joining hands in saying ‘Peace be with you’ … is bedrock for Catholics. Again, notice the children running about to shake hands with all they can get to within the 30 seconds time allowed. Its a beautiful expression. Peoples faces ‘lightup’ when they express and sign their neighbors with handshake of peace.

ewtn.net/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm Just read it. And also if you know anything about Canon Law, please feel free to read Canon 907. Should I state it for you? Maybe I will so that ALL can see the truth on the matter.

Canon 907 provides:

In the celebration of the Eucharist, deacons and lay persons are not permitted to say the prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, nor to perform the actions which are proper to the celebrating priest.

With this said, where do priests and bishops get off going against the liturgy of the Mass by allowing this? If anything it contradicts the ‘unity’ aspect charismatics speak of by not including deacons, who are NOT allowed to do so. Reason being, it’s the presiding priest that does so. It indicates his praying on BEHALF of us, acting as alter Christus as pastor of the flock, head of the body. Even if there were other priests at the altar, only the presiding one can do the Orans posture.

About the whole holding hands issue. Does the congregation BOW when they are supposed to in the Pater Noster? …“he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.” That would be following the rubrics of the Liturgy in which the Holy See approves.

I know it’s hard to hear it when you’re wrong. I’ve been there too many times. We just can’t deny the truths in this matter. It’s not correct and goes against Church teaching. God bless you.