Charismatic Catholics?

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brb3 said:
Well, singing Praises to the Lord and being Expressive isn’t ‘superficial’.
This would seem very integral to what DAVID did in his worship to the Lord.

However, did DAVID speak in tongues ? Did the Apostles speak in tongues … in the Church meetings ?

If they did … why was this ‘essential’ ingredient LOST so early to the Church ?

You say this was rediscovered 30 years ago. Please !!! Would Christ allow his Church to go for 1900 years w/o an essential aspect ?
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Hey, you need to read past quotes on this site. The whole aspect of you mentioning King David, who sent a man to his death so he could do what he wished with this man’s wife, is kind of hypocritical and you’re exactly proving that it IS wrong to dance and sing and wave your hands around during Mass.

In the account of the ark, it was to be built and placed in a certain manor, which David didn’t follow, for he built a new cart, which was not what God commanded him to do. He then went about making a parade for it, whilst dancing and prancing, which again, is not what God commanded to be done with the ark. It made a mockery of God, and did not praise him.

So for anyone to make such a remark, please read the entire thread rather than just make a comment on the last few threads. Thank you and God bless. 🙂
 
Dominique1234 said:
David didn’t follow, for he built a new cart, which was not what God commanded him to do. He then went about making a parade for it, whilst dancing and prancing, which again, is not what God commanded to be done with the ark. It made a mockery of God, and did not praise him.
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So, you say David’s dancing was an Abomination before God ?

You do know the Church ECF’s taught that the kicking in the womb of John the Baptist … is fulfillment of the Typology of David’s dancing before the Lord.

You are confusing Catholics with those TeaTotaler Baptists who don’t drink wine or go to dances. 😃
 
Dominique1234 said:
[

http://www.ewtn.net/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm]() Just read it. And also if you know anything about Canon Law, please feel free to read Canon 907. Should I state it for you? Maybe I will so that ALL can see the truth on the matter.

Canon 907 provides:
Code: 
In the celebration of the Eucharist, deacons and lay persons are not permitted to say the prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, nor to perform the actions which are proper to the celebrating priest.
With this said, where do priests and bishops get off going against the liturgy of the Mass by allowing this?

It’s not correct and goes against Church teaching. God bless you.
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Do you accept the Pentecost account in Acts ? Perhaps you need to petition the Pope to hold an inquisition … to have the Catholic Priests charged as heretics.
 
brb3 said:
Well, singing Praises to the Lord and being Expressive isn’t ‘superficial’.
This would seem very integral to what DAVID did in his worship to the Lord.

However, did DAVID speak in tongues ? Did the Apostles speak in tongues … in the Church meetings ?

If they did … why was this ‘essential’ ingredient LOST so early to the Church ?

You say this was rediscovered 30 years ago. Please !!! Would Christ allow his Church to go for 1900 years w/o an essential aspect ?
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Perhaps you should brush up on Church history. The Charisms have been neglected for a very long time. And yes, outward expressions are superficial. One does not need to act like a Protestant to be faithful.
 
brb3 said:
Do you accept the Pentecost account in Acts ? Perhaps you need to petition the Pope to hold an inquisition … to have the Catholic Priests charged as heretics.
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Maybe you need to accept the FACT that Charismatic Catholicism is not the only valid form of worship.
 
brb3 said:
Do you accept the Pentecost account in Acts ? Perhaps you need to petition the Pope to hold an inquisition … to have the Catholic Priests charged as heretics.
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Yes, that the disciples spoke in different languages, which is what the church teaches… not the 'lalalalilillolollylululu" that you get at a life in the spirit seminar…

Actually, if it were to happen, I’m sure there would have to be reform from MANY so called “Catholic” priests/ modernists. But then, I guess you follow. I’m sorry. I’m looking, as the Pope is, for quality, not quantity. A shepherd is not there to do what his flock tells him to do. He is there to care for it and do what is necessary for it’s survival. These illegitimate ‘changes’ is like feeding the flock rotten oats.

I’ve stood my ground. How about you do the same if you think you’re right? God bless you and I will pray for your spiritual growth.
 
Dominique1234 said:
Hey, you need to read past quotes on this site. The whole aspect of you mentioning King David, who sent a man to his death so he could do what he wished with this man’s wife, is kind of hypocritical and you’re exactly proving that it IS wrong to dance and sing and wave your hands around during Mass.

In the account of the ark, it was to be built and placed in a certain manor, which David didn’t follow, for he built a new cart, which was not what God commanded him to do. He then went about making a parade for it, whilst dancing and prancing, which again, is not what God commanded to be done with the ark. It made a mockery of God, and did not praise him.

So for anyone to make such a remark, please read the entire thread rather than just make a comment on the last few threads. Thank you and God bless. 🙂
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I think I was the first to mention David dancing before the ark and you better reread Scripture on this account because you are confused. David was dancing as it was being returned to Jerusalem from being in captivity. David’s wife, Mikal, said it was not proper for a king to act so foolishly. God punished her by causing her to be barren because God considered David, “a man after God’s own heart”. David worshipped God in this case with dancing and excitement because without the ark their worship was incomplete and now at last they can completely worship God.

David being a king and a priest could receive the Holy Spirit upon him. He knew better than anyone of the time what this meant. That is why when he did sin so terribly the only thing he wanted of God was His Spirit, not riches, or kingdoms. That is why God so loved him and forgave him even before he asked.

So to disparage David shows an ignorance of the heart of worship. Being part of the Charismatic Renewal, as evidenced in speaking in other tongues, for over 20 years has given me a new insight into worship. The Bishop has the right and the duty to determine what is proper. You are confusing conformity with unity. As long as we believe the essence of the mass is the sharing of the body and blood of Jesus then we are in unity. If it does not conform step by step before and after the transubstantiation, that should be ok, as long as the Bishop approves.

I do not want to take your worship away from you. I just would like the opportunity to worship in a way that reflects my understanding of the Spirit, in Spirit and Truth.

The mass has not remained the same since the beginning. It has not remained the same in our lifetime, that is if you are preVat II as I am. But in essence it has, a celebration, interesting choice of words, of the receiving of the body and blood of Jesus.
 
gtrenewed said:
I think I was the first to mention David dancing before the ark and you better reread Scripture on this account because you are confused. David was dancing as it was being returned to Jerusalem from being in captivity. David’s wife, Mikal, said it was not proper for a king to act so foolishly. God punished her by causing her to be barren because God considered David, “a man after God’s own heart”. David worshipped God in this case with dancing and excitement because without the ark their worship was incomplete and now at last they can completely worship God.

David being a king and a priest could receive the Holy Spirit upon him. He knew better than anyone of the time what this meant. That is why when he did sin so terribly the only thing he wanted of God was His Spirit, not riches, or kingdoms. That is why God so loved him and forgave him even before he asked.

So to disparage David shows an ignorance of the heart of worship. Being part of the Charismatic Renewal, as evidenced in speaking in other tongues, for over 20 years has given me a new insight into worship. The Bishop has the right and the duty to determine what is proper. You are confusing conformity with unity. As long as we believe the essence of the mass is the sharing of the body and blood of Jesus then we are in unity. If it does not conform step by step before and after the transubstantiation, that should be ok, as long as the Bishop approves.

I do not want to take your worship away from you. I just would like the opportunity to worship in a way that reflects my understanding of the Spirit, in Spirit and Truth.

The mass has not remained the same since the beginning. It has not remained the same in our lifetime, that is if you are preVat II as I am. But in essence it has, a celebration, interesting choice of words, of the receiving of the body and blood of Jesus.
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David dancing in front of the Ark was not part of liturgical worship. but personal worship. The takeaway: the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass must be maintained, but contemporary worship (which goes hand in hand with the Charismatic renewal, mind you) should not be part of the liturgy, but is acceptable outside of the Mass.
 
gtrenewed said:
I think I was the first to mention David dancing before the ark and you better reread Scripture on this account because you are confused. David was dancing as it was being returned to Jerusalem from being in captivity. David’s wife, Mikal, said it was not proper for a king to act so foolishly. God punished her by causing her to be barren because God considered David, “a man after God’s own heart”. David worshipped God in this case with dancing and excitement because without the ark their worship was incomplete and now at last they can completely worship God.

David being a king and a priest could receive the Holy Spirit upon him. He knew better than anyone of the time what this meant. That is why when he did sin so terribly the only thing he wanted of God was His Spirit, not riches, or kingdoms. That is why God so loved him and forgave him even before he asked.

So to disparage David shows an ignorance of the heart of worship. Being part of the Charismatic Renewal, as evidenced in speaking in other tongues, for over 20 years has given me a new insight into worship. The Bishop has the right and the duty to determine what is proper. You are confusing conformity with unity. As long as we believe the essence of the mass is the sharing of the body and blood of Jesus then we are in unity. If it does not conform step by step before and after the transubstantiation, that should be ok, as long as the Bishop approves.

I do not want to take your worship away from you. I just would like the opportunity to worship in a way that reflects my understanding of the Spirit, in Spirit and Truth.

The mass has not remained the same since the beginning. It has not remained the same in our lifetime, that is if you are preVat II as I am. But in essence it has, a celebration, interesting choice of words, of the receiving of the body and blood of Jesus.
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I just need you to know that these are not assigned gestures by the Catholic Church. It isn’t even allowed for priests who are not presiding at Mass to do the Orans posture, or deacons for that matter. So what gives any lay person the right to do so? We, as lay people, must follow what the Church teaches. To hold hands in Church while saying the Pater Noster is not in the rubrics of liturgy. It’s sad that priests and bishops allow this to happen when THEY KNOW it’s not part of the liturgy of the Mass. Why are we adding it to the liturgy? What if I decided to receive communion on my foot? They say nothing about receiving on the foot. There’s no ‘law’ against it, so I’m going to start a new ‘trend’ and receive communion on my foot.

I’m only kidding. That would be sacriligious, but in all honesty, this is what the church is trying to move away from, hand holding and hip swaying and such. It’s not in the rubrics. Don’t change it. Can you tell me if people in your parish bow at the right place during the Nicene Creed? Because if you or anyone else at a Mass does not, they are not following the rubrics of the Mass. If instead, you extend your hands, which the Church does not ask us to do, then you are not following what the Church asks us to do. You are disobeying the Church. I know, it hurts when you’ve been doing such for so long, yet refuse to give in to the fact that you’re wrong… it’s called pride. Let it go. Please, for the sake of your soul.

As long as we believe the essence of the mass is the sharing of the body and blood of Jesus then we are in unity. If it does not conform step by step before and after the transubstantiation, that should be ok, as long as the Bishop approves.

Where did you get this information? Is this just what you think or does the Church teach this? It seems like it’s just your opinion on what is okay and what’s not. I see some watered-downness, if that makes sense to you… So as long as we believe in the body and blood of Christ, it doesn’t matter what we do? That’s very uncharitable, because if you’re raising your hands and standing at the front of the Church in the first pew, it is distracting from what’s in front of you… the Eucharist. You are making these gestures that are distracting me, the children beside me, and taking away from what’s important. The Eucharist. I don’t want to see someone raise their hands in the corner of my eye. It’s not part of the liturgy, so why do you do it?

I have grown in my patience thanks to people like you. I guess I should say thank you! 🙂 But either way, we are all worshiping Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and that’s what’s important. God bless you and I will pray for you. Please do the same for me. 👍
 
CWBetts said:
David dancing in front of the Ark was not part of liturgical worship. but personal worship. The takeaway: the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass must be maintained, but contemporary worship (which goes hand in hand with the Charismatic renewal, mind you) should not be part of the liturgy, but is acceptable outside of the Mass.
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Very well said. Thank you for putting it in words I could not… short and sweet, unlike my messages… 😃
 
The liturgy has not remained the same since the beginning. It has not even remained the same in our lifetime, if you are preVat II as I am. What was considered dignified has changed greatly over time. Early history shows that Jewish believers had services much like they always had as Jews but Gentile believers had a more boisterous service as was their background. According to early church historian Philo, the pagans called their services love feasts, as we also see in Scripture by St. Paul. The mass/service back then reflected the local congregation and area of the world.

If the recorded meetings back were so “wild” that even the pagans took notice, should we not have that experience today? Imagine that receiving communion back then was so real that they could not help but feel the joy of being redeemed and showed it. Could any of our masses be compared to a love feast today?

I agree with you if you want to have a service that is what you are used to. I would never even raise my hands if it wasn’t the norm for that parish. What we Charismatics would like is a mass/service like the early services where the Holy Spirit moved the participants and enthusiatic joy was expressed. If we push your boundary of liturgical law by our masses/services we are not being rebellious just to be rebellious but feel that what freedom we have gained by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit reflects the true worship of the early church. That is why Bishops allow certain things in Charismatic meetings. They understand what is real spiritual law and what is superficial law. Like I said, liturgical law has changed many times over time.

If you want to be “traditional” be traditional. If we want to express ourselves in worship as the early did, with joy unspeakable and full of glory then we should have the right to do just that. There are abuses everywhere in the church because the church is people. But those whose heart is for Jesus and for their neighbor will act in love and there will be no abuse even though it may not be your cup of tea.
 
I couldn’t have said it better. If you don’t like it fine, but don’t think we’re being disenguious in our actions.
 
Dominique1234 said:
That’s very uncharitable, because if you’re raising your hands and standing at the front of the Church in the first pew, it is distracting from what’s in front of you… the Eucharist. You are making these gestures that are distracting me, the children beside me, and taking away from what’s important. The Eucharist. I don’t want to see someone raise their hands in the corner of my eye. It’s not part of the liturgy, so why do you do it?
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Please, there are so many distractions in the Mass already … kids crying, running up/down the benches, people going and coming. For all to raise hands during the Lord’s Prayer actually adds some design to the various laity activities.

Catholics should perhaps do more of our prayers with eyes closed … to shut out the distractions. I was amazed when I first came to the Church how many pray with eyes wide open … even while on their knees waiting for their turn to go forward to receive Body/Blood.
 
CSJ said:
We are not called to worship in a particular style, we are simply called to worship in spirit and in truth.

CSJ
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Ephesians 5:19 gets a little bit more detailed…

Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
 
Psalm 150

1Praise the Lord.
**
Praise God in his sanctuary;**

praise him in his mighty heavens.

2Praise him for his acts of power;

praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,

praise him with **the harp and lyre, **

4praise him with tambourine and dancing,

praise him with the **strings and flute, **

5praise him with the** clash of cymbals,**

praise him with **resounding cymbals. **

6Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Psalm 150

1Praise the Lord.
**
Praise God in his sanctuary;**

praise him in his mighty heavens.

2Praise him for his acts of power;

praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,

praise him with **the harp and lyre, **

4praise him with tambourine and dancing,

praise him with the **strings and flute, **

5praise him with the** clash of cymbals,**

praise him with **resounding cymbals. **

6Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord.
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What does this have to do with the liturgy of the Mass and what the rubrics call for? I can see in every day life, but during Mass? Let’s consult what the Holy See has to say about that before misconstruing a passage from the Bible and affiliating it to the Liturgy of the Mass.
 
brb3 said:
Please, there are so many distractions in the Mass already … kids crying, running up/down the benches, people going and coming. For all to raise hands during the Lord’s Prayer actually adds some design to the various laity activities.

Catholics should perhaps do more of our prayers with eyes closed … to shut out the distractions. I was amazed when I first came to the Church how many pray with eyes wide open … even while on their knees waiting for their turn to go forward to receive Body/Blood.
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That’s funny… so let’s add another distraction thank you very much… lol… your logic makes me laugh… again. Let’s just go with what the Church asks us to do rather than add to the liturgy, which is wrong, by the way, as I’ve stated and proved without a doubt, as the CDF has stated as well… I’m not going to repeat myself 30 times in the same thread.

As for closing your eyes at Mass while praying… you should do just that rather than watch people pray with their eyes open… at least they’re praying, as you stated. You’re only watching these people with open eyes and judging if they’re praying or not. Your eyes are obviously open for you to be able to see that, no?
 
Dominique1234 said:
What does this have to do with the liturgy of the Mass and what the rubrics call for? I can see in every day life, but during Mass? Let’s consult what the Holy See has to say about that before misconstruing a passage from the Bible and affiliating it to the Liturgy of the Mass.
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It doesn’t have anything to do with the Liturgy.
 
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