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myfavoritmartin
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It has to do with how scripture speaks toward how we worship our Lord and Savior Jesus.
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Dominique1234
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God bless you all. Please pray for our priests.
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Dominique1234
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What does it have to do with the Mass? Can you please find a Vatican Document stating or using this psalm specifically for divine worship of the Holy Eucharist and at Mass?
I can see any other time to be okay, at a praise and worship get together, but at Mass it would take away from what is important. The Eucharist.
God bless you all and take care! I hope and pray for you all.
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CWBetts
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This is about personal worship. This is not a liturgical rubric. I find it disturbing that you find it so easy to disregard the Vatican’s norms for worship based on personal interpretation.
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brb3
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No … they are open as I walk back down the aisle to get to my seat. Perhaps ONLY YOU can walk about with closed eyes w/o falling & creating a massive distraction
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brb3
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You can raise your hands for some of us
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DrPiano
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Sorry - I’m confused on a few points.
A) Why are we discussing the misuse of the Orans Position or the Holding of Hands during the Our Father? No one to this point has proven that either of these are “fruits”, “results” or “inventions” of the charismatic movement. There’ve been accusations, but not proof. And at my designated Charismatic Parish, which has members who were at the origins of the Catholic Charismatic movement, both of these are rarely, if ever, seen. I’ve had more contact with both of these practices at parishes that were decidedly NOT Charismatic in the slightest (and would probably feel quite uncomfortable at a Charismatic prayer meeting). While I think the topic of these is interesting, I don’t think it belongs here - unless you can prove that it is directly attributable to the Charismatic movement.
B) Particularly after Mass tonight, I’m confused how anyone’s raising of their hands during the music would be distracting. For myself, when I am singing/praying during the Mass, I’m nearly oblivious to those around me - my focus is either on my hymnal, the crucifix (which in our church requires that my eyes be significantly above everyone else’s heads, even from the back) or closed. Even when walking back from communion (when, by the way, posture is not at all specified by the GIRM), my eyes are more likely to be on the floor, purposely turned away from others, so that I can better focus my attention on God. So I’m really finding it hard to understand how anyone else’s posture could distract me from Jesus.
If you could help clear these confusions up, I’d be very grateful.
In God’s Love,
Elisa
A) Why are we discussing the misuse of the Orans Position or the Holding of Hands during the Our Father? No one to this point has proven that either of these are “fruits”, “results” or “inventions” of the charismatic movement. There’ve been accusations, but not proof. And at my designated Charismatic Parish, which has members who were at the origins of the Catholic Charismatic movement, both of these are rarely, if ever, seen. I’ve had more contact with both of these practices at parishes that were decidedly NOT Charismatic in the slightest (and would probably feel quite uncomfortable at a Charismatic prayer meeting). While I think the topic of these is interesting, I don’t think it belongs here - unless you can prove that it is directly attributable to the Charismatic movement.
B) Particularly after Mass tonight, I’m confused how anyone’s raising of their hands during the music would be distracting. For myself, when I am singing/praying during the Mass, I’m nearly oblivious to those around me - my focus is either on my hymnal, the crucifix (which in our church requires that my eyes be significantly above everyone else’s heads, even from the back) or closed. Even when walking back from communion (when, by the way, posture is not at all specified by the GIRM), my eyes are more likely to be on the floor, purposely turned away from others, so that I can better focus my attention on God. So I’m really finding it hard to understand how anyone else’s posture could distract me from Jesus.
If you could help clear these confusions up, I’d be very grateful.
In God’s Love,
Elisa
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wili315
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Hi FrankyG,
Pilthy has some good explanation as to what the Charismatic movement is like. I would like to add that the word Charism… means gift; as in “Gift of the Holy Spirit”. We all have different gifts and we are not all charismatic. You may later be given this “gift” as you grow spiritually… then again… maybe not. Being Charismatic does not make you a better Catholic Christian. God loves you very much… right now… as you are… don’t try to be something else. Be yourself, pray on your knees or standing with waving hands … both are appropriate.
God Bless you.
Wili
Pilthy has some good explanation as to what the Charismatic movement is like. I would like to add that the word Charism… means gift; as in “Gift of the Holy Spirit”. We all have different gifts and we are not all charismatic. You may later be given this “gift” as you grow spiritually… then again… maybe not. Being Charismatic does not make you a better Catholic Christian. God loves you very much… right now… as you are… don’t try to be something else. Be yourself, pray on your knees or standing with waving hands … both are appropriate.
God Bless you.
Wili
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wili315
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It would seem to me that when GOD decides to humble Himself to the lower state of a man leaving behind much of what he is and has, to take on the state of a human with all his frailties and limitations is a big thing! At the same time knowing that becoming a man means he would have to suffer and die along the way. He did it by choosing to do so, so that we ALL might have life. He deserves our humble adoration and praise for this single act because this one step into our Humanity had all the consequences that followed that decision.
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mseaton
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gtrenewed
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I find it disturbing that you so easily disregard God’s Word. Here, Psalm 150, we have what God says about praising Him. There were many ways of worship in the OT but this is definitely one of them.
Since the community gathers primarily for mass, this make’s the mass the primary praise and worship venue. We that are Charistmatic would like to be able to praise and worship like Psalm 150 but also around the Eucharist. How do we do that? If we have a Charismatic mass, anti-charismatics get there rubrics all bent out of shape and condemn us. Let us have our Eucharistic Celebration.
With concepts like ‘liturgical rubric’ no wonder the Vatican is full of lawyers! Maybe we need a Charismatic lawyer? Naw, a contradiction in terms.
Also, the norms have changed over the centuries. The norms have changed within our lifetime if you were born pre Vat II.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit has made me better and that gives me joy just waiting to explode.
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CWBetts
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You cannot just do what you want during the Mass. Rubrics must be followed. Vatican II did not turn the Mass to a free for all. Show me in the rubrics where the novelties you like are permitted.
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mseaton
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mseaton
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I totally agree. The Charismatic Renewal is not dangerous and allows to surrender to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This does not in anyway alter or diminishes the importance of the Eurcharistic Celebration but for me enhances the awareness of the True and Living Presence.
Most people are against the Renewal because they are afraid to let go and give the Holy Spirit full liberty in their lives. You should worship the way that you feel comfortable and my comfort level is allowing the Holy Spirit full access. Remember we were created with gifts but most of us never realize those gifts because of the lack of surrender.
I have been a Charismatic Catholic since 1980 and have been baptized in the Sprit and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Being in the renewal made the Word of God and the Eurcharist become alive to me. Please do not criticize until you have tried it. God Bless you all!
Most people are against the Renewal because they are afraid to let go and give the Holy Spirit full liberty in their lives. You should worship the way that you feel comfortable and my comfort level is allowing the Holy Spirit full access. Remember we were created with gifts but most of us never realize those gifts because of the lack of surrender.
I have been a Charismatic Catholic since 1980 and have been baptized in the Sprit and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Being in the renewal made the Word of God and the Eurcharist become alive to me. Please do not criticize until you have tried it. God Bless you all!
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gtrenewed
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Novelties??? You call the Word of God, Psalm 150, a novelty?
You missed the point about Vat II - the point is that norms change.
It would seem good to me if a group of people were excited about faith, about worship, about Jesus, that I could be supportive instead of condemning.
Jesus found in His time here that the most law abiding were the coldest of heart towards God; in fact He said, “they honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me!”
I don’t know your heart but why are you not willing to extend charity and encouragement. One can be law abiding, yet supportive. I find that anti-charismatics claim to be law abiding yet are very condemning. Why are you all hiding behind the law? If the Vatican can find good and be supportive of the Charismatic Renewal, why can’t you all?
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CWBetts
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Stop misapplying the Scriptures. You cannot use Pslam 150 as an excuse for liturgical abuse. If you would actually read the V2 documents, you would see that it did not allow for such ridiculousness as making up a new liturgy as you go along. It is because of this misapplication of V2 that abuses happen. Note I am not blaming Vatican 2, but liberals like yourself who want to discard 2000 years of Sacred Tradition. Vatican 2 abolished nothing. I, for one, have little patience for those who think their form of worship is superior to all others. You apparently think that the only kind of worship that is acceptable is that which is based on liturgical abuse.
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OnceLostSoul
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After reading about 145 replies to the original OP, I found that the majority of the posts were NOT by Charismatic Catholics, and were often by people who with little or no first-hand knowledge of the subject. Some entries were posted by clueless people ranting about their personal prejudices and misconceptions or quoting blindly from scripture. Not surprisingly, no one even attempted to answer a key question asked by FRANKYG in the OP “Now is this what Charismatic means?”Hello,
How many of you are charismatic catholics? I am only 20 years old, but i dont feel like im Charismatic, I have a hard time trying to wave my hands during a song for our Lord… Now is this what Charismatic means? I really enjoy gettin on my knees and praying instead, thankin God for all his blessings… Am I wrong for not being Charismatic?
Thanks guys
So what then is a Charismatic? More specially, what does being a Catholic Charismatic mean?
To understand what’s going on, take a good look at what is actually taught at the Life-in-the-Spirit Seminars (LISS) held by the prayers groups belonging to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (CCR)?
To fuel and focus the debate, let me give a couple of hints about what’s taught:
The central message of the LISS was living the life in the spirit - to surrender to the working of the Holy Spirit, to depend on the Holy Spirit to guide us in our Christian calling to love and serve others
Discipleship - we are all called to be disciples of Jesus Christ, but the Catholic Charismatic is committed to discipleship.
And here are a couple of hints of what’s not included or not emphasized:
Tongues was a minor issue, not at all emphasied being the least of the gifts
Waving your hands, dancing, shouting were not taught
I will elaborate and explain in my next posting next week …
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Dominique1234
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Ha, ha… that would be funny…No … they are open as I walk back down the aisle to get to my seat. Perhaps ONLY YOU can walk about with closed eyes w/o falling & creating a massive distraction
. But my intention at that point is not to look at people, my intention as I walk down back to my seat is to remain in the prayerful mentality that I was in before receiving communion rather than be distracted by looking and noticing other’s demeanor during the course of the Mass…I hope you understand what I’m getting at. I just don’t see the point. Anyhow. God bless and take care!
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brb3
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And also with you …Ha, ha… that would be funny…
I hope you understand what I’m getting at. I just don’t see the point. Anyhow. God bless and take care!
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gtrenewed
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Out of my whole post this is what you got?
I am not misapplying anything but showing what God has revealed about praise.
If you think the Eucharistic Celebration is the same today as 2000 years ago, you are very naive. In fact, the early church was very Charismatic in the liturgy. So much so, that Paul had to revisit some churches to better explain what he had originally taught.
I was an altar boy pre Vat 2 - so I know that the liturgy is vastly different. English instead of Latin, celebrant facing congregation, altar position changed, communion received differently, wine added to communion for everyone, greater participation by the congregation, list goes on.
So if, our participation changed then and considering the approval of the Vatican for the Charismatic Renewal, I don’t think I am a “wild-eyed liberal” in wanting to incorporate Charismatic rubrics such as were in the early church.
Again, I am not saying that every Eucharistic Celebration has to be Charismatic, but that one should be available to us. I know we have Charismatic masses now in various places but it is infrequent in most places and is considered controversial by people like you. That is far from saying that it is the only one acceptable to me or that it is superior. Your rantings condemning me as a liberal (whatever that means), and only concerned with abusing the liturgy shows the intolerance of anti-charismatics that causes a division instead of peace. The fact that you have little patience for something you misunderstand (we don’t feel it is superior, just our own) is part of the problem.
This type of negativity has caused many Charismatics into the “closet” to keep the peace. It has also caused many not to consider seeking Baptismn the Spirit. But Jesus is Lord, He is the Head of the Body and His will be done.
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