Charismatic Catholics?

[CWBetts]

Out of my whole post this is what you got?

I am not misapplying anything but showing what God has revealed about praise.

If you think the Eucharistic Celebration is the same today as 2000 years ago, you are very naive. In fact, the early church was very Charismatic in the liturgy. So much so, that Paul had to revisit some churches to better explain what he had originally taught.

I was an altar boy pre Vat 2 - so I know that the liturgy is vastly different. English instead of Latin, celebrant facing congregation, altar position changed, communion received differently, wine added to communion for everyone, greater participation by the congregation, list goes on.

So if, our participation changed then and considering the approval of the Vatican for the Charismatic Renewal, I don’t think I am a “wild-eyed liberal” in wanting to incorporate Charismatic rubrics such as were in the early church.

Again, I am not saying that every Eucharistic Celebration has to be Charismatic, but that one should be available to us. I know we have Charismatic masses now in various places but it is infrequent in most places and is considered controversial by people like you. That is far from saying that it is the only one acceptable to me or that it is superior. Your rantings condemning me as a liberal (whatever that means), and only concerned with abusing the liturgy shows the intolerance of anti-charismatics that causes a division instead of peace. The fact that you have little patience for something you misunderstand (we don’t feel it is superior, just our own) is part of the problem.

This type of negativity has caused many Charismatics into the “closet” to keep the peace. It has also caused many not to consider seeking Baptismn the Spirit. But Jesus is Lord, He is the Head of the Body and His will be done.

YOU MUST FOLLOW THE RUBRICS. THIS IS NOT OPEN FOR DISCUSSION! THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS IS NOT TO BE MADE UP AS YOU GO ALONG.
Part of our faith is obedience to the Church. As such, submit to the authority, and stay away from liturgical abuse. Sorry to disappoint, but liturgical dance and “do what you feel” is not appropriate for Mass. For a praise and worship service it may be bet definitely NOT Mass,

 

[Dominique1234]

YOU MUST FOLLOW THE RUBRICS. THIS IS NOT OPEN FOR DISCUSSION! THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS IS NOT TO BE MADE UP AS YOU GO ALONG.
Part of our faith is obedience to the Church. As such, submit to the authority, and stay away from liturgical abuse. Sorry to disappoint, but liturgical dance and “do what you feel” is not appropriate for Mass. For a praise and worship service it may be bet definitely NOT Mass,

I have yet to see a Vatican document speak of the Charismatic movement… I have seen documentation on the Charisms of the Holy Spirit, but I have never seen any documents concerning the validity of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church.

What has been brought to my attention as well is that Dennis Bennett an episcopalian minister or pastor, has been accredited for being the founder of the movement in 1960… it’s roots aren’t even Catholic. So I would love to know where and how I can find any Catholic document speaking of the movement itself and it’s implementation into our Faith, possibly a document from the Vatican. If anyone has these documents, it would truly help to clear up much of what I can’t understand.

Also, to add or remove any rubrics from the liturgy is going against Catholic teachings, as has been factually stated how many times now? As CWBetts stated, it’s part of our obedience to our Holy Church.

God bless you and keep up the Good Works!

 

[Dominique1234]

Out of my whole post this is what you got?

I am not misapplying anything but showing what God has revealed about praise.

If you think the Eucharistic Celebration is the same today as 2000 years ago, you are very naive. In fact, the early church was very Charismatic in the liturgy. So much so, that Paul had to revisit some churches to better explain what he had originally taught.

I was an altar boy pre Vat 2 - so I know that the liturgy is vastly different. English instead of Latin, celebrant facing congregation, altar position changed, communion received differently, wine added to communion for everyone, greater participation by the congregation, list goes on.

So if, our participation changed then and considering the approval of the Vatican for the Charismatic Renewal, I don’t think I am a “wild-eyed liberal” in wanting to incorporate Charismatic rubrics such as were in the early church.

Again, I am not saying that every Eucharistic Celebration has to be Charismatic, but that one should be available to us. I know we have Charismatic masses now in various places but it is infrequent in most places and is considered controversial by people like you. That is far from saying that it is the only one acceptable to me or that it is superior. Your rantings condemning me as a liberal (whatever that means), and only concerned with abusing the liturgy shows the intolerance of anti-charismatics that causes a division instead of peace. The fact that you have little patience for something you misunderstand (we don’t feel it is superior, just our own) is part of the problem.

This type of negativity has caused many Charismatics into the “closet” to keep the peace. It has also caused many not to consider seeking Baptismn the Spirit. But Jesus is Lord, He is the Head of the Body and His will be done.

So being pre-V II you should know that Latin is still the main language supposed to be said and that the vernacular is to be used secondly. As for receiving communion, the altar rails/communion rails were removed without permission, communion began being allowed on the hand because of this, and now people don’t even notice fragments of Christ in their hands and rub Him off on their skirts and shorts… VERY respectful to our Lord and Savior…

As for the rest, show me a document STATING that the Charismatic MOVEMENT has been approved by the Church. I have personally never seen one. I’ve seen PLENTY of documentation about the CHARISMS of the Holy Spirit, but not of the movement itself. It was also brought to my attention that the movement itself was started by Episcopalians… funny that the protestant Church started something that’s Catholic? I never knew that before. It’s news to me…

I’m not trying to bring you down. I just need facts and trust that you will supply them and show me where to go to find them as well so I can see for myself… "Happy are those who believe without seeing! " If it’s from our Faith, bring it on!

God bless you!

 

[BlaiseR]

Here’s some links that may help

Pope John Paul II’s address
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2CHARS.HTM

ICCRS included in list of new movements and communities published by the Pontifical Council for the Laity
ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/movecoms.HTM

 

[BlaiseR]

As I have posted earlier, I have been part of the Charismatic Renewal for some years now. This movement has helped me grow spritually and have a deeper relationship with my Lord. It had guided me into understanding more deeply the truths of the Church and appreciate more the teachings of the Church and the Eucharist, among others.

Having said this I also accept that that there maybe/are some excesses within this movement (I guess wherever sinners are involved )
However, this is no excuse for not submitting to the Magestrium of the Church - in fact this is what we insist on.
Raising of hands / singing / healing, etc. are not taught/considered as important. Rather a conversion of heart (repent & believe) is considered as more important.

As regards the rubrics of the Eucharist, it is possible that the exceses are not deliberate but rather out of ignorance (I myself was ignorant - we were never taught this) that there is a definite format given by the Church which must not be deviated from. This deviation from the rubrics I have seen is not limited to the renewal. I have seen several instances of worship acts of other faiths being included in the Eucharist celebration.

These deviation I have come to understand is probably as a result of a mis-understanding (also within the magestruim) of the true meaning of certain statements in the Vatican II documents. Several, have chosen to interprate these differently and has led to various different practices in different countries (This is why our present Pope - God bless him - is leading a call back to the original form of the Eucharist).

Recently, in our Archdoicese the Bishops have taken the initiative to start classes on a small scale to teach the laity about the rubrics of the Eucharist. It is my hope that as this gains momentum we will gradually see a return to the correct form of the Eucharist.

And yes I agree that we all need to submit in obedience to the Magistrium of the Church in all matters including following the rubrics of the Eucharist…

Your Brother In Christ
Blaise

 

[Philthy]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

Do you need more? This is a long read, I know, but if you truly want to educate yourself as to why, then be my guest and read it all. It will be good for every Catholic to read it, especially in the West. God bless!

Hi Dominique!

I apologize that this is so late - I have been away from the internet for over a week! I read the scanned the referenced article above and found this section to be the only one which applies to the topic at hand:

§ 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

The first thing that I observe is that this section clearly deals with the separation of responsibility which is inherently necessary to preserve the unity and order of the Mass - this much is stated in the opening paragraphs. I would agree that from this statement people should not be adopting the Orans Posture which is “proper to the same priest celebrant”. I have no disagreement with you there. I do not see anything in the above, however, which would preclude holding hands during the Our Father. It is not an action “proper to the…priest celebrant” and does not violate the order and unity of the Mass. I will reiterate that I do neither during Mass - I usually pray with a simple, discrete gesture that centers my prayer physically and spiritually to my heart while others around me often hold hands. So I am without a bias in the sense that I am not attempting to justify my own behavior. I simply dont see anything above in letter or in spirit which addresses the holding hands issue. Do you?

Blessings!

 

[gtrenewed]

So being pre-V II you should know that Latin is still the main language supposed to be said and that the vernacular is to be used secondly. As for receiving communion, the altar rails/communion rails were removed without permission, communion began being allowed on the hand because of this, and now people don’t even notice fragments of Christ in their hands and rub Him off on their skirts and shorts… VERY respectful to our Lord and Savior…

As for the rest, show me a document STATING that the Charismatic MOVEMENT has been approved by the Church. I have personally never seen one. I’ve seen PLENTY of documentation about the CHARISMS of the Holy Spirit, but not of the movement itself. It was also brought to my attention that the movement itself was started by Episcopalians… funny that the protestant Church started something that’s Catholic? I never knew that before. It’s news to me…

I’m not trying to bring you down. I just need facts and trust that you will supply them and show me where to go to find them as well so I can see for myself… "Happy are those who believe without seeing! " If it’s from our Faith, bring it on!

God bless you!

My point you all seem to miss, is that the liturgy has changed over time, even in my lifetime. So why should Charismatics not inquire about a change now? I am not talking about hi-jacking the Eucharistic Celebration as it is now - but seeking a change.

A Charismatic would never treat the Eucharist as you have stated. We have a deeper appreciation for the Eucharist. So you are just throwing in things you don’t like about the conduct in the mass by anyone. That belongs in another thread.

Both Pope Paul IV and John Paul II commended the Charismatic Renewal. Go to www.nsc-chariscenter.org and click on about the Charismatic Renewal.

Dennis Bennett, an Episcopalian priest, did NOT start the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. He did write about being Baptized in the Holy Spirit and his book was used to explain what happened to his church when some of his congregation became Charismatic and how that lead to his receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It is a good book on the Baptism but doesn’t touch on any other doctrines.

There are many Catholic publications on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal which offer a distinctly Catholic viewpoint. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit happened at a Catholic university, Duquense, and it spread from there in Catholic circles.

Although, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is found across denominational lines, it is a manifestation found at the beginning of the early church. Since, Jesus is the head of the body, it is not unusual that this manifestation is poured out on all those that seek Jesus, 1Cor 12:7 “But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” So, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is decidedly Christian and those that are Roman Catholic can enjoy it within the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[CWBetts]

My point you all seem to miss, is that the liturgy has changed over time, even in my lifetime. So why should Charismatics not inquire about a change now? I am not talking about hi-jacking the Eucharistic Celebration as it is now - but seeking a change.

A Charismatic would never treat the Eucharist as you have stated. We have a deeper appreciation for the Eucharist. So you are just throwing in things you don’t like about the conduct in the mass by anyone. That belongs in another thread.

Both Pope Paul IV and John Paul II commended the Charismatic Renewal. Go to www.nsc-chariscenter.org and click on about the Charismatic Renewal.

Dennis Bennett, an Episcopalian priest, did NOT start the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. He did write about being Baptized in the Holy Spirit and his book was used to explain what happened to his church when some of his congregation became Charismatic and how that lead to his receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It is a good book on the Baptism but doesn’t touch on any other doctrines.

There are many Catholic publications on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal which offer a distinctly Catholic viewpoint. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit happened at a Catholic university, Duquense, and it spread from there in Catholic circles.

Although, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is found across denominational lines, it is a manifestation found at the beginning of the early church. Since, Jesus is the head of the body, it is not unusual that this manifestation is poured out on all those that seek Jesus, 1Cor 12:7 “But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” So, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is decidedly Christian and those that are Roman Catholic can enjoy it within the Roman Catholic Church.

I would ask you to provide a single document from the Church that indicates that the laity should petition to push for any fad that comes along to be added into the Liturgy. It certainly was neitherLumen Gentium or Gaudiem et Spes. You have latched onto the mythical “Spirit of Vatican 2” to push something that in no way should be in the Mass.

 

[Philthy]

I would ask you to provide a single document from the Church that indicates that the laity should petition to push for any fad that comes along to be added into the Liturgy. It certainly was neitherLumen Gentium or Gaudiem et Spes. You have latched onto the mythical “Spirit of Vatican 2” to push something that in no way should be in the Mass.

Hi Carl!

I checked out your blog - some great stuff in there. I want to discuss - not argue - some of the points you make above as well as some of the general tone I perceive in some of your posts. You seem a little, well, angry! All this “provide a single document” stuff can go both ways. A document has been produced which clearly states that the laity are not to assume postures or repeat prayers proper to the priest celebrant. The Orans posture would seem to be forbidden by this IMHO. I dont think there is too much debate there, although some might argue that the lifting of hands is not an attempt to replace the priest in any way but merely an bodily expression of prayer. Im willing to side with you and Dominique that the Orans posture is inappropriate. What I do not see and what both of you have repeatedly failed to address is the OFFICIAL position on holding hands during the Our Father.

Do you have any liturgical, theological or canonical support for opposing folks holding hands during that prayer during Mass?

Blessings!

 

[CWBetts]

Hi Carl!

I checked out your blog - some great stuff in there. I want to discuss - not argue - some of the points you make above as well as some of the general tone I perceive in some of your posts. You seem a little, well, angry! All this “provide a single document” stuff can go both ways. A document has been produced which clearly states that the laity are not to assume postures or repeat prayers proper to the priest celebrant. The Orans posture would seem to be forbidden by this IMHO. I dont think there is too much debate there, although some might argue that the lifting of hands is not an attempt to replace the priest in any way but merely an bodily expression of prayer. Im willing to side with you and Dominique that the Orans posture is inappropriate. What I do not see and what both of you have repeatedly failed to address is the OFFICIAL position on holding hands during the Our Father.

Do you have any liturgical, theological or canonical support for opposing folks holding hands during that prayer during Mass?

Blessings!

It is not in the Rubrics, and no one may add anything to the Mass on their own authority. I do not need to provide evidence that it is forbidden, but rather you must provide documentation where it is specifically allowed.

 

[Philthy]

It is not in the Rubrics, and no one may add anything to the Mass on their own authority. I do not need to provide evidence that it is forbidden, but rather you must provide documentation where it is specifically allowed.

I consider this another failure at addressing the issue, and I presume that it persists because you dont actually have a document to define what “adding to the Mass” consists of. Lots of activity may not be contained in the Rubrics. For example: Is it OK to inhale? to blink? to place my hands together in prayer? Is it OK to bow? Can I add a personal intention at any time during the Mass? Can I hold my child? How, exactly, do you know? In fact, show me where the “Rubrics” are defined, and where it says no one may add “anything” to the Mass. Show it to me in writing or I’ll just have to assume you have an axe to grind for some reason. Like I said, I’m not looking to argue, but you continue to avoid the issue: where is a link to the document forbidding such behavior? Holding hands is not covered under any document you have sighted - if I’m mistaken, please let me know. And remember, I’m not a hand-holding advocate, I maintain an independent prayer position during all phases of the Mass except during the exchange of peace. Its just that - unlike you apparently - I dont feel the need to impose upon others my PERSONAL sense of what constitutes “adding to the Mass”. I dont find hand-holding during a prayer threatening, discourteous, distracting, disrespectful or unholy.

Blessings!

 

[CWBetts]

I consider this another failure at addressing the issue, and I presume that it persists because you dont actually have a document to define what “adding to the Mass” consists of. Lots of activity may not be contained in the Rubrics. For example: Is it OK to inhale? to blink? to place my hands together in prayer? Is it OK to bow? Can I add a personal intention at any time during the Mass? Can I hold my child? How, exactly, do you know? In fact, show me where the “Rubrics” are defined, and where it says no one may add “anything” to the Mass. Show it to me in writing or I’ll just have to assume you have an axe to grind for some reason. Like I said, I’m not looking to argue, but you continue to avoid the issue: where is a link to the document forbidding such behavior? Holding hands is not covered under any document you have sighted - if I’m mistaken, please let me know. And remember, I’m not a hand-holding advocate, I maintain an independent prayer position during all phases of the Mass except during the exchange of peace. Its just that - unlike you apparently - I dont feel the need to impose upon others my PERSONAL sense of what constitutes “adding to the Mass”. I dont find hand-holding during a prayer threatening, discourteous, distracting, disrespectful or unholy.

Blessings!

Holding hands during the Our Father.

This is oddly widespread in the United States but it’s an illicit addition to the liturgy. The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice “must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.” And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because “no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority” (ibid).

Notitiae (17 [1981] 186)) also reaffirms that the priest may never invite the congregation to stand around the altar and hold hands during the Consecration. He stays in the sanctuary and we stay outside of it.

There you go. Perhaps now you will accord the Mass the respect it deserves. We aren’t gathering for fellowship. We are meeting for the worship of our God that is so far separate form us as to be incomprehensible.

 

[Chrissyangel]

Hello,

How many of you are charismatic catholics? I am only 20 years old, but i dont feel like im Charismatic, I have a hard time trying to wave my hands during a song for our Lord… Now is this what Charismatic means? I really enjoy gettin on my knees and praying instead, thankin God for all his blessings… Am I wrong for not being Charismatic?

Thanks guys

I love the Charismatics i use to go to Pentecostal church few years back,but returned home to my own church catholic,the catholic church i attend now are not charismatics,I do not no of one that is catholic where I live,I am in England,but I would love to go to prayer group.If you like to be more quite with Our Lord maybe just go to a church that does not do this singing,clapping etcI am sure Jesus loves both forms of worship,and I do think that Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is so beautiful,I find that the Holy Spirit really touches my heart when I go,for tears pour down my face,and I am not a person to easily get upset,but I think of the wonderful Love Our Lord Jesus has for us all,and all the pains He suffered for every living person on earth,and how He is still rejected,and still very sad with all His children. God bless.Keep close to Jesus and Our Blessed Mother Maryx

 

[nuntym]

Holding hands during the Our Father.

This is oddly widespread in the United States but it’s an illicit addition to the liturgy. The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice “must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.” And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because “no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority” (ibid).

Notitiae (17 [1981] 186)) also reaffirms that the priest may never invite the congregation to stand around the altar and hold hands during the Consecration. He stays in the sanctuary and we stay outside of it.

There you go. Perhaps now you will accord the Mass the respect it deserves. We aren’t gathering for fellowship. We are meeting for the worship of our God that is so far separate form us as to be incomprehensible.

Now that’s very interesting. Is there a website enumerating these liturgical abuses with attached sources? Or better yet, where can we find these sources online?

 

[CWBetts]

Now that’s very interesting. Is there a website enumerating these liturgical abuses with attached sources? Or better yet, where can we find these sources online?

I got this information by searching “liturgical abuse” in the search box on the Catholic Answers main page

 

[nuntym]

I got this information by searching “liturgical abuse” in the search box on the Catholic Answers main page

blinks Wow, I keep on learning something new everyday. Just finished reading catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901fea1.asp and now reading catholic.com/library/liturgical_abuses.asp. Thank you!

 

[Philthy]

Holding hands during the Our Father.

This is oddly widespread in the United States but it’s an illicit addition to the liturgy. The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice “must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.” And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because “no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority” (ibid).

Notitiae (17 [1981] 186)) also reaffirms that the priest may never invite the congregation to stand around the altar and hold hands during the Consecration. He stays in the sanctuary and we stay outside of it.

There you go.

Thank you. Im not sure why you didnt post this a while back.

Perhaps now you will accord the Mass the respect it deserves.

This is entirely unwarranted, dont you think? I have said nothing to lead you to such an unbecoming attack. Peace be with you.

We aren’t gathering for fellowship. We are meeting for the worship of our God that is so far separate form us as to be incomprehensible.

Our worship is separate from us? That doesnt make very much sense. The Mass is incomprehensible? That also doesnt make much sense. Perhaps you might want to get your thoughts together and explain what it is that you are trying to say and how it relates to the Mass. We gather together, we sing together, we kneel together, we pray together, but we can’t hold hands together? Is there really any logic behind that to you?

So here is where we are:

• Both the Orans Posture by laity and the holding of hands during the Our Father are forms of liturgical abuse because neither is included in the rubric.
• A distinction remains between them, however. Whereas the Orans Posture by the laity is not in the rubric because it’s inclusion threatens the appropriate separation of the celebrant and the laity and because it’s inclusion might promote a degree of chaos rather than unity, the holding of hands during the Our Father (or any other part of the Mass) has no clear, rational explanation for it’s exclusion from the rubric. Neither the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae nor anyone on this forum has articulated a reason why holding hands during the Our Father should remain excluded from the rubric. The very unity and order which is threatened by the laity using the Orans Posture would seem to be promoted by the laity holding hands during the Our Father. There does not appear to be anything inherently wrong with holding hands, it is the lack of inclusion in the rubric which designates its status as an abuse.
• This means that whereas it seems clear that the Orans Posture by the laity will remain forever excluded from the rubric, the same cannot be claimed regarding the holding of hands during the Our Father - there seems nothing opposed to including it. Unless someone has additional thoughts on why it’s inclusion in the rubric would be forbidden…

Blessings!

 

[BlaiseR]

INSTRUCTION: INCULTURATION AND THE ROMAN LITURGY
Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments​

Fourth instruction for the right application of the Conciliar Constitution on the Liturgy issued on March 29, 1994.

To view the above document you can use the following link:
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWINCLT.HTM

An extract of a portion I found relevent

1. The liturgy is an action, and so gesture and posture are especially important. Those which belong to the essential rites of the sacraments and which are required for their validity must be preserved just as they have been approved or determined by the supreme authority of the church.[87]

The gestures and postures of the celebrating priest must express his special function: He presides over the assembly in the person of Christ.[88]

The gestures and postures of the assembly are signs of its unity and express its active participation and foster the spiritual attitude of the participants.[89] Each culture will choose those gestures and bodily postures which express the attitude of humanity before God, giving them a Christian significance, having some relationship if possible,

with the gestures and postures of the Bible.

1. Among some peoples, singing is instinctively accompanied by hand-clapping, rhythmic swaying and dance movements on the part of the participants. Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance.

Trust this can help clear some doubts:thumbsup:

Your brother in Christ
Blaise

 

[DrPiano]

I’d just like to point out regarding the Orans posture that it is a very specific posture - and that not all “raising of hands” results in the assuming of the orans posture. In fact, when I raise my hands in worship (whether in the mass or not) it is almost never (I won’t say never because things are rarely “never”) in the form of the Orans posture.

As far as the idea of “adding to the rubrics” - as someone pointed out, there’s a lot that’s not in the rubrics - what to do with our hands being one of those things. What not adding to the rubrics means is that no one can be required (by a priest or otherwise) to assume positions not in the rubrics. This means a priest (or congregation) can’t require that everyone hold hands during the Our Father (and is the context that I believe the statement on Divine Worship was addressing - I’ve been to parishes where holding hands during the Our Father has been required - and that is an abuse). This also means that you cannot require that people stand with their hands folded or hands at their sides or hands clasped behind them or anything like that - since such a requirement would be adding to the rubrics. Those of us who do raise our hands do not require that you do the same - and the rubrics do not say we cannot do so.

There is nothing in the rubrics that states that I cannot raise my hands during the songs - provided that I do not assume the Orans position - which again, as I stated above, is a very specific position. It also means that I could reasonably hold hands with the members of my family or with a friend nearby who wanted to during the Our Father (but, like philthy, I do not do so).

And, as I pointed out several posts ago, the discussion of holding hands during the Our Father is frankly off topic since no one here has proven that it was an innovation developed and propagated by Catholic Charismatic Renewal. And again I point to my own congregation which is one of a handful of designated charismatic parishes and in which these innovations really aren’t seen at all. (And which is considered to be the “traditional, conservative” parish in our area - because we are so incredibly faithful to the magesterium.)

 

[BlaiseR]

Some more interesting reading I found on the Oran’s posture and holding of hands:
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/ZLITUR10.HTM
HOLDING HANDS AT THE OUR FATHER?
ROME, 18 NOV. 2003 (ZENIT).
Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.