Charismatic, Ecumenical, or Just Disobedient?

[docholmes]

I’m puzzled by some of the actions of our new priest during our mass and would like some clarification for the Pharasitic attitude I am beginning to foster. A Little background on how things have progressed here in our parish. Reassignment for our diocese took place a little over 6 months ago, we lost a very outgoing, joyful priest of age 40 who was replaced by a 65ish former director of our diocese’s Center for Charismatic Renewal. He does well within our parish as well as the community as a whole. He has spoken to other protestant churches here and was received very well. My issues deal with mainly 3 things.

1. HOW YA DOIN? At the beginning of mass he asks all visitors to raise their hands, we offer a welcome of applause, then he asks us to welcome one another to the celebration. I’m a convert and if I wanted to be a Methodist, I’d go to church much closer to my house.
2. PRAYERS OF THE FAITHFUL - After we’ve completed the prayers of the faithful we put some emphasis to it by asking for the intercesion of Our Lady by praying the Hail Mary and a Glory Be just for good measure.
3. EUCHARISTIC PRAYER - In 6 months I have yet to hear him follow the sacramentary during Sunday Mass. I have yet to hear him refer to Mary as the Virgin Mother of God as is written in the Eucharistic Prayer.

I’m open to suggestions for healing, but is it me or are other people just soooooooo Ignorant that they don’t know they’re being Abused? When I ran into my priest on Friday of this past week I was shocked that he was actually wearing his collar…I’d never seen him outside of the celebration of Mass with it on. I pray for him Daily, and out of charity wish he would be more orthodox and wear his collar as a sign of the importance he carries within our community, he’s earned that collar and our respect as a man of God. I’ll take any suggestions you might have as I am troubled by my deeper decent into nit-picking Pharastical feelings about what’s rite and whats not. I know there are many who have sat in the Pew and just wished and prayed that the priest would just “Say what’s in black & Do what’s in red”, leaving your own person mark on the Mass for your Homily.

miserere Nobis

 

[puzzleannie]

Nothing wrong with 1 & 2, nothing in the rubrics either way, but traditional in many places. I don’t know why anyone would object to greeting their neighbors (before Mass begins of course) if they do object, that may indicate an attitude adjustment problem, maybe not.

as for #3 there is a wide choice of Eucharisitic prayers and that choice is at the priest’s discretion, so without knowing which one he is using, and what he is actually saying I can’t comment, he may be perfectly fine. If you have no evidence of any other times he plays fast and loose with the Mass prayers, it would be best to assume he is right since he is the expert, he is the liturgist of the parish, and we are not. My former church used to announce the # of the EP on the board with the hymn numbers, which sure helped. oh well.

 

[japhy]

1. HOW YA DOIN? At the beginning of mass he asks all visitors to raise their hands, we offer a welcome of applause, then he asks us to welcome one another to the celebration. I’m a convert and if I wanted to be a Methodist, I’d go to church much closer to my house.

Having a welcoming community of faithful Catholics is great. But turning Mass into a celebration of us is not great. The attention is not on us. It is on God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That’s why the greeting is “The Lord be with you”, not “Good morning”.

1. PRAYERS OF THE FAITHFUL - After we’ve completed the prayers of the faithful we put some emphasis to it by asking for the intercesion of Our Lady by praying the Hail Mary and a Glory Be just for good measure.

The Prayer of the Faithful is the least rubricized part of Mass.

1. EUCHARISTIC PRAYER - In 6 months I have yet to hear him follow the sacramentary during Sunday Mass. I have yet to hear him refer to Mary as the Virgin Mother of God as is written in the Eucharistic Prayer.

Atrocious. He might be using an approved Eucharistic Prayer that is not found in the Sacramentary, but I would be suspicious given his other conduct.

A priest who fails to follow the rubrics of Mass can harm the faith of his flock. And I don’t mean to sound pompous or arrogant, but his own understanding of the Mass might be insufficient too.

I know there are many who have sat in the Pew and just wished and prayed that the priest would just “Say what’s in black & Do what’s in red”, leaving your own person mark on the Mass for your Homily.

That is the job of the priest in any liturgy: to speak and do what what the Church has directed him to do. That’s our job, too, to make responses, to sit, to kneel, or bow, etc. How would the priest like it if the congregation just decided to do their own thing?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The problem is that we don’t have just the Ordinary and the Extraordinary forms for the mass… We have over 30,000 variations of the mass according to Father’s A, B. …ad infinitum.

 

[Jenny_Z]

We pray a Hail Mary after the prayers of the faithful… I don’t see anything wrong with that

 

[PassthePeace1]

Hi Doholmes,

Some of what you say sounds familar, you wouldn’t happen to be in the Ft. Worth Diocese…would you?

 

[Joan_M]

We pray a Hail Mary after the prayers of the faithful… I don’t see anything wrong with that

Not seeing anything wrong with something done in the Mass does not mean that it is right.

The GIRM tells us what to do in the Mass and nowhere does it say that praying a Hail Mary after the prayers of the faithful is allowed. This is just another case of the priest inserting his own piety into the Liturgy. It should not be done.

 

[guanophore]

Not seeing anything wrong with something done in the Mass does not mean that it is right.

The GIRM tells us what to do in the Mass and nowhere does it say that praying a Hail Mary after the prayers of the faithful is allowed. This is just another case of the priest inserting his own piety into the Liturgy. It should not be done.

I wish that each and every priest would insert more piety into the Mass. There is nothing in the GIRM either that prevents the Hail Mary, and at the prayers of the faithful is a perfect spot.

It might help if you got a missal with the eucharistic prayers, see which one he is using, and you may find that your concerns are unfounded.

You may be pre-occupied with the form of Godliness, and not the power thereof. Try attending a Byzantine Mass, and be open minded.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m puzzled by some of the actions of our new priest during our mass and would like some clarification for the Pharasitic attitude I am beginning to foster. A Little background on how things have progressed here in our parish. Reassignment for our diocese took place a little over 6 months ago, we lost a very outgoing, joyful priest of age 40 who was replaced by a 65ish former director of our diocese’s Center for Charismatic Renewal. He does well within our parish as well as the community as a whole. He has spoken to other protestant churches here and was received very well. My issues deal with mainly 3 things.

1. HOW YA DOIN? At the beginning of mass he asks all visitors to raise their hands, we offer a welcome of applause, then he asks us to welcome one another to the celebration. I’m a convert and if I wanted to be a Methodist, I’d go to church much closer to my house.
2. PRAYERS OF THE FAITHFUL - After we’ve completed the prayers of the faithful we put some emphasis to it by asking for the intercesion of Our Lady by praying the Hail Mary and a Glory Be just for good measure.
3. EUCHARISTIC PRAYER - In 6 months I have yet to hear him follow the sacramentary during Sunday Mass. I have yet to hear him refer to Mary as the Virgin Mother of God as is written in the Eucharistic Prayer.

I’m open to suggestions for healing, but is it me or are other people just soooooooo Ignorant that they don’t know they’re being Abused? When I ran into my priest on Friday of this past week I was shocked that he was actually wearing his collar…I’d never seen him outside of the celebration of Mass with it on. I pray for him Daily, and out of charity wish he would be more orthodox and wear his collar as a sign of the importance he carries within our community, he’s earned that collar and our respect as a man of God. I’ll take any suggestions you might have as I am troubled by my deeper decent into nit-picking Pharastical feelings about what’s rite and whats not. I know there are many who have sat in the Pew and just wished and prayed that the priest would just “Say what’s in black & Do what’s in red”, leaving your own person mark on the Mass for your Homily.

miserere Nobis

In one of his books, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, stated that the Mass does not begin with a secularized greeting. It begins with the Sign of the Cross. I can’t find the right citation (my eyes have grown blurry), however, this is what he says in A New Song for the Lord on a related matter:

(The Sunday Liturgy) will come off badly if it wants to enter into competition with show buseinss. A pastor is not an emcee, and the liturgy is not a variety show. It will also come of badnly if it wants to be a sort of engaging circle of friengs. That can develop subesquent to the liturgy and out of encounters that have evolved there. But the liturgy must be more.

Regarding the Eucharistic Prayers, there are eight that are in the Roman Missal (Sacramentary). Four regular ones (for lack of a better word) and two that are Eucharistic Prayers of Reconciliation. Two additional ones are strictly for Masses were children compose a significant majority of the assembly. There are two Eucharistic Prayers, commonly called the Swiss canons. These, like the Reconciliation versions, have their own prefaces. Unfortunately, these latter ones do not show up in any of the disposable Missals, nor do they show up in the Daily Roman Missal. Nor are they in the Sacramentary. They are available as separate books. Your local religious bookstore may have copies of them available. Your pastor may be using either the Reconciliation or the Swiss Canons. However, he cannot use the Children’s Eucharistic Prayers if adults outnumber children. These are meant for school Masses and not for something like Christmas Eve. Hoewver, the priest cannot take liberties with the actual texts. No one, not even the priest or bishop has the right to change anything in the Roman Missal of his own accord.

Whie the Hail Mary is a noble and worthy prayer, it shouldn’t be inserted into the Mass. The best place for it would be after the Post-Communion Prayer. In fact, when Pope Benedict XVI celebrates Mass and it’s close to Angelus time, he will recite the Angelus after the Post-Communion Prayer, before the final blessing. This is also the most appropriate time for any necessary announcements. One of the other posters is correct regarding the General Intercessions, though, as the GIRM is somewhat nebulous as to what to do.

I hope this helps.

 

[m134e5]

Nothing wrong with 1 & 2, nothing in the rubrics either way, but traditional in many places. I don’t know why anyone would object to greeting their neighbors (before Mass begins of course) if they do object, that may indicate an attitude adjustment problem, maybe not.

Many visitors do not like to be singled out. I would never go to a parish again if I visited it and the priest tried to single me out like that. Greeting people before Mass is a good idea…I just don’t like the idea of the priest asking the visitors to raise their hands so that the entire church can look at them.

 

[Extraordinary]

Not seeing anything wrong with something done in the Mass does not mean that it is right.

The GIRM tells us what to do in the Mass and nowhere does it say that praying a Hail Mary after the prayers of the faithful is allowed. This is just another case of the priest inserting his own piety into the Liturgy. It should not be done.

I agree. This is one of those “pious practices” that is often condoned by those screaming loudly about other liturgical matters.

Fr. Miguel of EWTN routinely says at the end of the intercessions something like “and for blah, blah let us seek the Holy Mother’s intercession with God the Father by praying Hail Mary, full of grace…” They skirt around the rubrics by suggesting it’s part of the intercessions.

I sorta like it, but like you I am aware it’s an unauthorized addition. I am also aware one loses their credibility when they attack one unauthorized addition and welcome another.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Nothing wrong with 1 & 2, nothing in the rubrics either way, but traditional in many places. I don’t know why anyone would object to greeting their neighbors (before Mass begins of course) if they do object, that may indicate an attitude adjustment problem, maybe not.

Objectors have a firm basis in GIRM 45: Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.

It’s much harder to dispose oneself for the sacred action when you’re supposed to be greeting everyone around you. No, socializing seconds before Mass is not explicitly forbidden, but if silence is commendable there should be no attitude adjustment needed for those who prefer to recollect themselves before Mass.

 

[guanophore]

Many visitors do not like to be singled out. I would never go to a parish again if I visited it and the priest tried to single me out like that. Greeting people before Mass is a good idea…I just don’t like the idea of the priest asking the visitors to raise their hands so that the entire church can look at them.

I know how you feel, and I just don’t raise my hand when invited. However, I have heard a lot of complaints from people who attend for weeks or sometimes months without being greeted or welcomed. This method allows those in the ministry of hospitality to approach and welcome the visitors to the parish. People need this personal contact. It would be better if we actually knew all the parishoners, so this wasn’t necessary. I attended a Greek Orthodox parish and was approached afterward by many who recognized that I was a visitor.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

My understanding is that technically, the Mass actually doesn’t begin until the celebrant asks us to sign ourselves.

So, if the priest asks everyone to introduce themselves to each other, prior to actual beginning of the Mass, no problem.

Be a community of friends rather than a community of strangers.

I see no problem at all with this and have seen many priest do it.

Jim

 

[Phemie]

My understanding is that technically, the Mass actually doesn’t begin until the celebrant asks us to sign ourselves.

No, the Mass starts with the Entrance Procession. GIRM 47 says about the Entrance Chant: “The purpose of this chant is to open the celebration…” It’s our first act of worship, even before the Greeting.

So, if the priest asks everyone to introduce themselves to each other, prior to actual beginning of the Mass, no problem. Be a community of friends rather than a community of strangers. I see no problem at all with this and have seen many priest do it.
If done at all, and I’ll admit I really dislike doing this because it reminds me of a Tupperware meeting rather than Mass, it should be before the Entrance Procession. The idea of greeting the persons around me, whom I’ve already said ‘hi’ to as I slipped into my pew, with a handshake as they do at my parish, (something I wouldn’t normally do if I were to meet them on the street) is just too unnatural.

Jim

 

[docholmes]

Just a little to Add to this “ongoing” drama. I went to Midnight Mass, was the lector mind you, so I sat up front. Yep, I remembered to genuflect during the creed, After the most unusual Homily Experience I have ever Had. Mind you It doesn’t bother me when the priest does a 1 minute reflection on the Gospel and then has someone from the Sisters of This Charity come and speak about their mission, but when the Blind girl finished off her “how I see things” followed by a 3 Vrs Rendition of “Away in a Manger” 2 things happened to me: 1. There was no way that I was going to forget to genuflect, no matter if I was the only one there that did 2. If Jesus Christ himself (actually he was there) appeared and told me that I was worthy to receive him in communion I wouldn’t have because of the guilt I felt at that time due to the inner anger I had.

UPDATE: Providence is forthcoming, you just need to be patient and listen. As stated in my OP about the EP, the words “Virgin Mother of God” have not met my ears during the masses Msgr. has said (yes, I’m now keeping tally). I find it humbling to know that one of our seminarians who is at NAC in Rome will be Lectoring for Pope B XVI on Jan 1, on the Solemnity of THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY THE MOTHER OF GOD:thumbsup:

 

[benedictgal]

Hey, fellow Texan. I went over to my dad’s parish for Christmas Eve. It was not a good experience. The pastor, who has an STD in Liturgy from one of the Roman Pontifical Universities, decided to forego the Gloria and sing “Hark the Herald, Angels Sing”. Prior to that, he recited the Christmas proclamation and then went on to begin the Mass. The Christmas proclamation happens after the Sign of the Cross and the Greeting. The Gloria and the Collect are supposed to follow. I pretty much figured we’d be in for a bad ride.

For the responsorial psalm, the cantor sang it to the tune of “Go Tell It on the Mountain.” It was horrible. The pastor used the Roman Canon; however, he kept telling us along the way whom we should pray for and when. After Mass, I hightailed it over to my parish for the Spanish vigil Mass.

It was a 180 degree difference, at least from the celebrant’s standpoint. The music was the dreadful OCP stuff (Child of the Poor with What Child is This); but, the celebrant, my PV, was wonderful.

The next day, I went to the Christmas Day Mass. My PV was the celebrant. It was bilingual; however, when it came to the Eucharistic Prayer, he chose the Roman Canon and prayed it in LATIN!!! I just about wanted to cry for sheer joy.

Of course, it threw off the choir and the director complained that she should have been told; however, my PV said that Pope Benedict had noted that in Masses where more than one language is used, the Canon should be prayed in Latin.

This morning, my dad and I went to a memorial Mass for one of his best friends. The priest, an elderly Oblate who had been ordained some 50 years ago, started off okay; however, I was miffed when he told us to “sit” during the Consecration. I told my dad we were kneeling. Only three of us knelt (the church has kneelers). He left the first part of the Eucharistic prayer intact; however, when it came to the Memorial and the doxology, he played fast and loose with everything.

During the “Domine, non sum dignus” (after the Agnus Dei), he told us to sit. He asked for an EHMC and my dad went to help him (church was standing room only).

After Mass, I told the priest that I had stopped attending the Cursillo because there were too many liturgical abuses going on and he thought I meant that I had stopped going to Mass. No, I told him, just to the center at this parish because there were too many problems. I don’t think he got it.

At least the seminarian from your neck of the woods is going to read at a Papal Mass.

 

[docholmes]

Well, After 3 1/2 years the score card Says: Mary The Virgin of God 1. And during this particular Mass, the Words of Consecreation were stumbled over so much I wondered if it was Valid…I pray, before the Blessed Sacrament for him weekly, Pray for him Daily, Even went so far as to include Mater Dei in his Christmas Card this year

 

[CB_Catholic]

Well, After 3 1/2 years the score card Says: Mary The Virgin of God 1. And during this particular Mass, the Words of Consecreation were stumbled over so much I wondered if it was Valid…I pray, before the Blessed Sacrament for him weekly, Pray for him Daily, Even went so far as to include Mater Dei in his Christmas Card this year

Are you telling us that you have been miserable at Mass for 31/2 years and are still going there?

 

[docholmes]

Are you telling us that you have been miserable at Mass for 31/2 years and are still going there?

It’s my Home. I posted this originally for advice on what to do, how to deal with the “Pharasitic” tendency I was developing. If you read these previous posts and some of the others I’ve had on the Forums under the Same title the BEST Advice I got was from someone who quoted their Mother who said “I was here when he came, and if it’s God’s Will I’ll be here when he’s gone”. It does give one a lot to offer up for the Poor Souls in Purgatory for sure. I do have Options, but I choose to stay and try and inform the Ignorant of how much they’re being abused during the liturgy. My favorite saying is that abuse has 3 “Eyes” The Innocent, the Ignorant, and the Indifferent. Unfortunately, the 3 “Eyes” far outnumber the informed faithful here.