Charismatic Episcopal Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter brendan55
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

brendan55

Guest
Hello. My friend’s brother is a priest in the CEC (Charismatic Episcopal Church). They claim apostolic succession/authority through the church(s) in brazil. They believe in the Real presence, seven sacraments, and hold other Catholic essentials. Are their sacraments valid? Are their Masses valid? Any more info?
 
40.png
brendan55:
Hello. My friend’s brother is a priest in the CEC (Charismatic Episcopal Church). They claim apostolic succession/authority through the church(s) in brazil. They believe in the Real presence, seven sacraments, and hold other Catholic essentials. Are their sacraments valid? Are their Masses valid? Any more info?
I am guessing that you put this in the Eastern Orthodox section because you want an Orthodox answer? Afraid not. Zilch. Or as some wags have put it: “They are as valid as they can be.”
 
I put it there as I thought it was closest. I am a Catholic (Latin Rite) and wasn’t sure where else to put it. Why are there orders NOT valid? It seems they claim succession from “valid anglican orders”?
 
Brendan I don’t think this thread really belongs in this forum. This forum is really for Orthodox churches, both Eastern and Oriental. That does not include the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church (and definitely not any of the Anglican Churches). But that’s cool, I’ll try and answer as best I can anyway. I’m not the most knowldegeable person on these matters, but I’ll try my best.

First of all, it sounds like these guys are pretty much Anglican. They are probably in communion with the Church of England, but I wouldn’t really know. If they are, then we would view some of their Sacraments as valid (such as Baptism) but I’m not too sure about the others. Certainly you would be advised not to take communion at this church. Their claims of Apostolic succession are probably correct, coming from Saint Augustine. But the Anglican churches broke away from the Catholic Church in the 16th century. This was most likely caused by Henry the 8th trying to maintain his line on the throne of England: his wife was barren, but the Catholic Church denied him a divorce. Forced to choose between maintaining unity with the Catholic Church and having a successor to his throne, he chose the latter.

I hope this helps. God bless,
Stu.
 
40.png
brendan55:
I put it there as I thought it was closest. I am a Catholic (Latin Rite) and wasn’t sure where else to put it. Why are there orders NOT valid? It seems they claim succession from “valid anglican orders”?
Dear Brendan,

In the eyes of the Orthodox Church their orders are not valid and their sacraments lack grace. But since you are a Roman Catholic you are probably looking for a Catholic answer. You could put your question in another section of the Forum where Catholics will see it and respond?

Moderator, which would be the appropriate section for this question?
 
Fr Ambrose:
Dear Brendan,

In the eyes of the Orthodox Church their orders are not valid and their sacraments lack grace. But since you are a Roman Catholic you are probably looking for a Catholic answer. You could put your question in another section of the Forum where Catholics will see it and respond?

Moderator, which would be the appropriate section for this question?
Suffice it to say, we know where Christ is but we dont know where He isnt.

StMarkEofE
 
Sorry if this topic’s been beat a hundred times, I’m just having a memory lapse.

IIRC, The Catholic church allows its members to recieve communion from the Orthodox churches because they have valid sacraments. (Although the Orthodox churches don’t allow us to.)

Yesterday on CA Jimmy mentioned that the Charismatic Episcopal Church also had a valid Eucharist. Does that mean we can freely recieve communion there, so long as we don’t consider it a fulfillment of our Sunday obligation?

I know the sacrament is also a sign of unity in the church, so I could very well be wrong in this.

Josh
 
I guess the answer is when only in grave necessity.
Can. 844 ß1 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments only to catholic members of Christ’s faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from catholic ministers, except as provided in ß2, 3 and 4 of this canon and in can. 861 ß2.
ß2 Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ’s faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
 
thanks to all. i will try in another forum, as I misunderstood how this works. thanks again.
 
Brendan,

I know a bit about the CEC. It’s somewhat of a hybrid - having split from Anglicanism and attracted to itself and attached itself to a variety of folk, who run the gamut from “Catholic” bodies of questionable episcopal heritage or status (schismatic or worse) and outright vagante groups. I moved your thread to the main Non-Catholic Religion forum and merged it with another thread on the same topic because it’s the closest thing we have to an appropriate place for a discussion about churches such as these.

Probably the most knowledgeable poster here about this genre of churches (Old Catholics, vagante “Orthodox” and “Catholic”, and churches outside the mainstream who claim “Apostolic Succession”) is Irish Melkite. I suggest you pm him and draw his attention to this thread. He can likely answer a lot of your questions.

Joe
 
40.png
brendan55:
Hello. My friend’s brother is a priest in the CEC (Charismatic Episcopal Church). They claim apostolic succession/authority through the church(s) in brazil. They believe in the Real presence, seven sacraments, and hold other Catholic essentials. Are their sacraments valid? Are their Masses valid? Any more info?
Brendan,

I received your PM and my thanks to Joe for recommending me as a source. As he suggested, I am a serious student of the genre of churches (Old Catholic, independent “Orthodox” and “Catholic”, ecclesia vagante, and liturgical churches outside the mainstream) which claim “Apostolic Succession”, and valid orders and sacraments as an outgrowth of that claim.

The CEC (and its parent body the Int’l Communion of the CEC) was formed in the early 1990s, although it has origins in an evangelical movement that arose about 15 years prior to that. It isn’t entirely clear from whence CEC’s first presbyters derived, i.e., by whom they were ordained and into which ecclesial community - that’s important to keep in mind, since it may have implications for the issue of the validity of the CEC’s orders.

Austin Randolph Adler, who is now the Primate or Patriarch (he appears to use both titles) of the CEC, was its founding bishop - prior to that he pastored Stone Mountain Church, apparently an evangelical - possibly non-denominational - congregation. He was consecrated a bishop by Bishop Timothy Barker, then of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch - Malabar Rite (CACA-MR). How Adler came into contact with the CACA-MR is unclear; it is one of several so-called “Spruit-line” Churches - the reference being to Herman Spruit, hierarch of the CACA-MR, as well as progenitor of a significant number of other “independent Catholic” and “independent Orthodox” Churches. The CACA-MR is, by the way, neither Catholic, nor of Antioch, and has no relationship to the Malabarese.

Subsequently, in the mid-'90s, Adler and Randolph Sly, another CEC bishop, apparently became concerned about the validity of the episcopal lineage conferred by Barker and sought additional episcopal consecration from William Millsaps, Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Missionary Church (EMC). The EMC was originally a diocese within the Episcopal Church of the USA (ECUSA) but broke with its parent in 1992 (about the same time that the CEC came into being) over issues of theology and practice within the Episcopal Communion.

In 1997, Archbishops Adler, Sly, and 3 other CEC hierarchs were re-consecrated sub conditione, I believe, by bishops of Igreja Catolica Apostolica Brasileira (ICAB) - the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil. Shortly thereafter, those newly re-consecrated laid hands on most of the remaining CEC hierarchs. The ICAB has its episcopal origins from the so-called “Duarte-Costa line”, which originated in the mid-20th century when Carlos Duarte-Costa, then a Latin Catholic bishop, resigned his titular episcopacy and broke with Rome to found the schismatic ICAB.

The late Bishop Duarte-Costa, together with his immediate episcopal descendents, have been a prolific source of episcopal orders, not only in the Western Hemisphere, but throughout the world - resulting in an abundance of “independent Catholic” Churches and other ecclesial bodies that, again arguably, have a claim to Apostolic Succession, valid orders, and valid sacraments.

The CEC, as a consequence of the consecration afforded to their hierarchs by the Duarte-Costa connection, falls into that murky realm of an arguable claim to validity, because of the Augustinian theory of same to which the Catholic Church subscribes. In brief, under the Augustinian theory (which I explained in detail in a post on this forum about a year ago - try the search engine, it should come up), a bishop with valid episcopal orders continues to have and validly exercise same (though illicitly), despite his estrangement from the Church, provided that proper form, matter, and intent are present.

(continued)
 
To definitively (as opposed to arguably) establish validity requires a detailed study of the episcopal genealogy of the one who claims to be a bishop and Rome has made no definitive statement with respect to the validity of the Duarte-Costa lines as a whole, nor is it likely to do so. Typically, absent circumstances necessitating it (such as the request a few years ago by the USCCB for clarification as to Apostolic Succession and validity of orders and sacraments in the US-based Polish National Catholic Church), Rome usually declines comment, believing (rightly) that affirming or disavowing validity encourages others in their pursuit of a “magic touch” and proliferates these quasi-Catholic ecclesia. Rome has implicitly acknowledged validity in the instance of some individual hierarchs with Duarte-Costa lines (e.g., Bishop Salomão Barbosa Ferraz, of blessed memory), but any conclusion as to the validity of others, particularly lines that are derivitive or significantly removed in time from Bishop Duarte-Costa himself (as is the case here), would be speculative at best, presumptuous at worst.

(I should acknowledge here that the CACA-MR, from which the CEC originally claimed succession, itself has some arguableclaims to validity given that the multiple episcopal lines from which it derived included at least a few hierarchs who, again arguably, had valid episcopal orders themselves or in their lineage. However, over time, the CACA-MR has sufficiently departed in praxis from Catholicism as to make it increasingly unlikely that the validity of its orders has been maintained.)

An additional concern vis-a-vis the CEC hierarchy is whether or not its bishops had valid presbyteral orders prior to their elevation to the episcopacy. Within the Anglican and Episcopal Churches, presbyteral orders have generally not been deemed valid by the Catholic Church, although an element of uncertainty was introduced and the waters were somewhat muddied in the twentieth century by the participation of Old Catholic hierarchy in some Anglican and Episcopal ordinations. However, it should be noted that the CEC, its name notwithstanding, did not originate in the Episcopal Church. As I remarked in the beginning of my post, by whom those who became the CEC’s bishops were ordained and into which ecclesial community could be factors in the validity of subsequent episcopal ordinations. That is not to say that it is an issue which couldn’t have been cured, if a bishop with valid, though illicit, faculties ordained them to the priesthood prior to consecrating them as bishops. From publically available information, it can’t be determined one way or the other whether that happened in this instance.

The CEC is a small but viable ecclesial body, with about 1000 congregations scattered across 40 of the 50 states, Puerto Rico, 3 Canadian provinces, and some 12-15 foreign countries. It claims about 200,000 communicants, last I checked, a number that is probably a bit high - but in the neighborhood. The Church’s theology, praxis, organization, and functioning is sufficiently mainstream to keep it out of the realm of being classed as vagante.

In sum, the CEC may have achieved valid Apostolic Succession and all that comes with that, but it cannot be stated with any certainty, absent a detailed study of all the lineages involved. Someone posted Canon 844 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law, suggesting that, in instances of grave necessity, Catholics might lawfully approach CEC clergy to receive the Sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist, or Anointing of the Sick. That is not the case.

In §3 of the same Canon, it is noted that Catholic clergy may lawfully administer those same Sacraments to members of the Eastern Churches not in full communion with Rome under certain conditions and goes on to say that “The same applies to members of other Churches which the Apostolic See judges to be in the same position as the aforesaid Eastern Churches so far as the Sacraments are concerned.” It should be noted that, at present, the sole other Church formally judged “to be in the same position” as the Orthodox Churches “so far as the Sacraments are concerned” is the Polish National Catholic Church (and only its US jurisdictions).

Lastly, in your PM to me, you referenced the Charismatic Catholic Church (CCC), rather than the CEC. I noticed that you (like me) are from the Bay State. By coincidence, the CEC’s only Massachusetts parishes are in the western part of the state, as is the CCC’s only Massachusetts parish (Palmer/Brimfield area) but, from your posts here in the thread, I presumed that to be a typo. If, in fact, you were intending to ask about the CCC, please let me know, as their situation is a bit different - slightly less convoluted, at least.

Many years,

Neil
 
I once heard an interview on our local EWTN-affiliated radio station with a now-Catholic former founding member of the CEC. Remarkably, a large group of believers decided that their evangelical-type community had gotten it all wrong. They realized that their non-liturgical non-sacramental concept of Christianity was totally a-historical. He told a very interesting story about how they went out and bought some vestments and found a bishop to ordain them! He had very positive things to say about the CEC, although he, of course, later became Catholic 😉

I’ve always found them interesting as they are apparently strong in my home town of San Clemente.
 
40.png
Caelicola:
I’ve always found them interesting as they are apparently strong in my home town of San Clemente.
Caelicola,

Neil/Irish Melkite could speak better to this than me, but I believe that is where they are headquartered.

Joe
 
(I should acknowledge here that the CACA-MR, from which the CEC originally claimed succession, itself has some arguableclaims to validity given that the multiple episcopal lines from which it derived included at least a few hierarchs who, again arguably, had valid episcopal orders themselves or in their lineage. However, over time, the CACA-MR has sufficiently departed in praxis from Catholicism as to make it increasingly unlikely that the validity of its orders has been maintained.)

This is something that I’ve struggled to fully understand about Holy Orders. At what point does a schismatic Bishop or Priest lose the validity of his ordination or what causes that validity to “not be maintained”? Had trouble finding clarification on this from different sources that I’ve read. Thanks.
 
(I should acknowledge here that the CACA-MR, from which the CEC originally claimed succession, itself has some arguableclaims to validity given that the multiple episcopal lines from which it derived included at least a few hierarchs who, again arguably, had valid episcopal orders themselves or in their lineage. However, over time, the CACA-MR has sufficiently departed in praxis from Catholicism as to make it increasingly unlikely that the validity of its orders has been maintained.)
This is something that I’ve struggled to fully understand about Holy Orders. At what point does a schismatic Bishop or Priest lose the validity of his ordination or what causes that validity to “not be maintained”? Had trouble finding clarification on this from different sources that I’ve read. Thanks.

According to Ott, a schismatic bishop never loses the validity of his ordination. See FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA, p.458. As far as I know, no validly ordained cleric loses the indelible mark of the sacrament, or its power, unless he is degraded.

GKC
 
=brendan55;849438]Hello. My friend’s brother is a priest in the CEC (Charismatic Episcopal Church). They claim apostolic succession/authority through the church(s) in brazil. They believe in the Real presence, seven sacraments, and hold other Catholic essentials. Are their sacraments valid? Are their Masses valid? Any more info?
No they are not a “Catholic” church which has many brances, all of which have verifible ties to direct Apolostolic Succession.

It is a good and wonderful thing that they believe and practice (invalid and ilicitly) the Seven Sacraments, as they are all instituted By Christ and have biblical foundation.

Sadly they do not understand, or perhaps some other reason, to comprehend Mt. 16:18-20and how that necessarly has to, must and certainly does determine who is a “Catholic” and who validly and licitly can practice the Sacraments.

Having shared this, we should pray that they will take the next necessary step in “communion” with the desires of Jesus for One Church.

Love and prayers,
 
I have seen at least two of the CEC’s erstwhile priests on THE JOURNEY HOME on EWTN.

They were NOT received in their orders, but as laymen, and apparently there are no plans to ordain them to the Catholic priesthood.
 
I have seen at least two of the CEC’s erstwhile priests on THE JOURNEY HOME on EWTN.

They were NOT received in their orders, but as laymen, and apparently there are no plans to ordain them to the Catholic priesthood.
True. No one I know of, Anglican, or CEC, has been received in his orders. Though two Anglicans in the last 50 years were ordained sub conditione.

And of those two CEC priests you saw, on Journey Home, I probably know one of them moderately well. He used to post here, regularly. Last I heard, his petition for ordination was progressing.

Wonder where he is.

GKC
 
As a former deacon in the Charismatic Episcopal Church (CEC) and a catechumen in the Orthodox Church of America; I can definitely say that the CEC does not have valid sacraments or apostolic succession. Just because a bishop, with apostolic succession, ordains other clergy doesn’t mean he imparts succession to those he ordains. Apostolic succession belongs to the Church and is not for any member of the Church to offer it to anyone without the Church’s approval. Further, when you examine the beliefs and claims of the CEC; you will find that they are just another “Protestant” church trying to embrace the Catholic and Orthodox Faith without giving up their Protestant traditions. On two CEC parish websites I found the statement that they held to the doctrine of Grace as reinforced by the Council of Trent and the Reformers. The Reformers didn’t agree amongst themselves and definitely didn’t agree with the Council of Trent.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top