Charismatic Evangelical Church transforming christianity

[JesusforMadrid]

The Economist magazine had an interesting article on the rise of Pentacostal/charismatic Christianity.

If you haven’t read it, here is the source:
economist.com/world/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=8401206

Forget theology for a minute: one thing that is heartening for Evangelicals, and must be depressing for Roman Catholics, is how the Evangelical Church is growing in Latin America, Africa and China, mostly the charismatic brand of Evangelical Christianity. China is now the second largest nation of practicing Christians (estimated 100 million), the large majority of whom are Evangelicals.

 

[djrakowski]

TForget theology for a minute: one thing that is heartening for Evangelicals, and must be depressing for Roman Catholics, is how the Evangelical Church is growing in Latin America, Africa and China, mostly the charismatic brand of Evangelical Christianity. China is now the second largest nation of practicing Christians (estimated 100 million), the large majority of whom are Evangelicals.

So, you’re heartened when one theological stream of Christianity grows at the expense of another?

 

[netmilsmom]

Pope Benedict wants a leaner, stronger, more devout church.
If the evangelicals are being lead closer to Christ, what is the problem?

It is easier for a Catholic to make it to heaven, but all others can too.

In my very Catholic family, the best and most Christian woman was a Methodist (God Rest her Soul).

Once the Catholic Church stops trying to please everyone and gets back to being Catholic, the numbers will rise. They have in my area, where hardline traditional Catholic teachings are here. We need to pray and wait, not worry at all. It’s the narrow path and not for everyone.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

So, you’re heartened when one theological stream of Christianity grows at the expense of another?

Yes I am. I think no stream is perfect, but I do see more “fruits of the Spirit” in those who join Evangelical churches, than those who call themselves “Roman Catholic”.

By the way, even Catholic leaders such as Ralph Martin and Father Cantalamessa have recognised that it is a good thing when nominal South American Roman Catholics encounter a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in an Evangelical church.

 

[djrakowski]

Pope Benedict wants a leaner, stronger, more devout church.
If the evangelicals are being lead closer to Christ, what is the problem?

It is easier for a Catholic to make it to heaven, but all others can too.

I know what you mean, and agree to a poinit, but they’re practically celebrating over picking off Catholics, and they don’t always use honest tactics in doing so. I’ve heard Catholic missionaries in Latin America talk about how the evangelical and pentecostal churches use images that are familiar to Catholics, such as Our Lady of Guadalupe, to draw in Catholics and convert them, which isn’t exactly the strategy a faith-filled Christian would use.

Once the Catholic Church stops trying to please everyone and gets back to being Catholic, the numbers will rise. They have in my area, where hardline traditional Catholic teachings are here. We need to pray and wait, not worry at all. It’s the narrow path and not for everyone.

Agreed 100%. Our parish serves as a fine example of that principle.

 

[djrakowski]

Yes I am. I think no stream is perfect, but I do see more “fruits of the Spirit” in those who join Evangelical churches, than those who call themselves “Roman Catholic”.

You’re not going to get very far in these forums if you continue to celebrate the triumphs of evangelicalism over Catholicism.

Of course, you see more fruits of the Spirit (depending on what you mean, as the evangelical approaches and definition on these terms are wildly divergent) in comparison to those who merely call themselves Roman Catholic. Anyone who has received the sacraments can call himself Roman Catholic, but then there’s actually being Catholic and living it out. In such people, the fruits of the Spirit are at least as convincing as in evangelical and fundamentalist churches with which I’ve been associated.

By the way, even Catholic leaders such as Ralph Martin and Father Cantalamessa have recognised that it is a good thing when nominal South American Roman Catholics encounter a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in an Evangelical church.

That’s wonderful, but they’re merely opinions. Indeed, I agree that any Catholic who moves from lukewarmness to on-fire belief in Christ is better off, but better still is the Catholic who catches fire in the only place that teaches the fullness of the truth.

 

[netmilsmom]

That’s wonderful, but they’re merely opinions. Indeed, I agree that any Catholic who moves from lukewarmness to on-fire belief in Christ is better off, but better still is the Catholic who catches fire in the only place that teaches the fullness of the truth.

Hey D, that last quote box wasn’t me.

 

[djrakowski]

Hey D, that last quote box wasn’t me.

Fixed… terribly sorry, my friend. I must’ve had the wrong text in my copy/paste buffer.

 

[Peterdiago]

I think we all need to learn very swiftly that the idea that “no stream is perfect” is a direct afront to the Roman Catholic Church. She is the only Church personally founded by Jesus Christ, and she IS perfect. Her teachings are perfect, and honest, and true. She is without flaws or blemish. She is the Church about which Christ said that the gates of Hell will not prevail.

Are individual members in her in error? Yes. But she herself is never anything except perfect and the Bride of Christ.

The Evangelical Churches do NOT have the fruits of the spirit - they are not gifted with them as they are not the Bride of Christ. Are individuals within them good people? Yes. Are they going to Heaven? Some of them, certainly.

They are going to Heaven in spite of their faith, not because of it. Their salvation is down entirely to the Catholic Church. There is no salvation outside of her.

 

[Mickey]

one thing that is heartening for Evangelicals, and must be depressing for Roman Catholics, is how the Evangelical Church is growing in Latin America, Africa and China, mostly the charismatic brand of Evangelical Christianity.

Why do you set up a competition? I doubt that Catholics are depressed about this. These evangelical/pentecostals may not have the fullness of truth, but they are Christian churches. Everyone should rejoice that these countries are not completely embracing Islamic extremism.

 

[scylla]

So since your personal opinion is that no group is perfect then would you be happy if the Jehovah’s Witnesses are growing?
Since it doesn’t matter that groups aren’t perfect is that ok?

I see it as horrible, we trade imperfection for zeal, we trade one faith for multiple interpretations each claiming there is not real truth.

So does it matter what you believe or just as long as they are pretty close to the truth. Many will say Lord Lord but are they really standing up for the one true faith, or do they say there is no real true faith, denying God and His ability to found a true faith.

I invite you to PM me and chat, we need to affirm love of Jesus and the willingness to follow Him anywhere, not just to what looks good to us.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Peterdiago]

I doubt that Catholics are depressed about this.

I’m depressed about this, and I’m a Catholic. Find me another, and Catholics plural are depressed.

I am always depressed when someone takes a step down to the heresy of Protestantism.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

The Evangelical Churches do NOT have the fruits of the spirit - they are not gifted with them as they are not the Bride of Christ. Are individuals within them good people? Yes. Are they going to Heaven? Some of them, certainly.

They are going to Heaven in spite of their faith, not because of it. Their salvation is down entirely to the Catholic Church. There is no salvation outside of her.

Quick, what are the Fruits of the Spirit? OK, I’ll help: Love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control. No Evangelicals in Evangelical Churches with these attributes? Not Billy Graham? Or Martin Luther King Jr.?

By the way, being “good” doesn’t get you into heaven, even according to the Roman Catholic Church, except in so far as being good means placing one’s faith and trust in Jesus Christ and following Him. By grace we are saved (ie. justified) through faith, according to St. Paul.

 

[Fidelis]

The Economist magazine had an interesting article on the rise of Pentacostal/charismatic Christianity.

Forget theology for a minute: one thing that is heartening for Evangelicals, and must be depressing for Roman Catholics, is how the Evangelical Church is growing in Latin America, Africa and China, mostly the charismatic brand of Evangelical Christianity. China is now the second largest nation of practicing Christians (estimated 100 million), the large majority of whom are Evangelicals.

I am always amused when non-Catholic Christians crow about things like this. For one thing, you need to broaden your source material besides selected articles and anecdotal evidence. If you do so, you will learn that the growth in fervent forms of religion is indeed growing in those countries, however it is not merely a Pentecostal/Evangelical/Charismatic/Fundamentalist Protestant phenomena. In fact, it a neck and neck race between these sects, Roman Catholicism, and Islam. Here are a couple of articles (by a Protestant author) that may help you broaden your perspective on this:

catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0018.html
catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0026.html

The second amusing part of this is putting it into historical perspective. John Henry Newman, famous convert from Protestantism once said: “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.” Modern Evangelicalism has only been around less than 200 years. The Catholic Church, however, has been around more that 2000 years. In that time, She has seen them come, and seen them go.

To take just one example, look at Arianism, a robust and agressive popular heresy that, from the 4th through the 7th centuries threatened to swallow the Catholic Church, so much so that at one point up to 75% of the Christians were Arian. But the Church outlasted it, and it is now merely a historical footnote. This is also, incidently, now slowly becoming the case with the original “Reformation” churches. Soon they’ll all be museums. It is my opinion that, when it comes to modern Protestantism, “This too shall pass.” But the Catholic Church rolls on and on…

 

[Damascus]

Depressed you say? Not this Catholic in the Latin Rite sir. In fact, I would say more filled with hope. I have a dirty little secret: I dont care for the Charasmatic movement personally, its not for me. It seems that the websites I have glanced at imply that Catholics in the CCM leave the Church to go to an Evangelical one. So, instead of edifying our faith and our faith gaining people by this innovation, we are only keeping them entertained until they drop us for a more “Spirit filled” innovative church.
The good news is, they are at last filled with peace and at their spiritual “home” once they admit to themselves that is what they wanted all along -which I wish for everyone.
I am thinking that the more Evangelical forces out there the better. Then we will have less numbers in the ccm. Sorry, but its how I feel. I am not going to sugar coat it. I accept the CCM as any Catholic must, as long as I can worship the way I want to I dont care what they do. And if they leave, oh well. I am sure it was never meant to be in the first place then.

 

[Peterdiago]

Quick, what are the Fruits of the Spirit? OK, I’ll help: Love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control. No Evangelicals in Evangelical Churches with these attributes? Not Billy Graham? Or Martin Luther King Jr.?

Try reading what I wrote I said that heretical churches do not have them, not that individuals within them do not. If Martin Luther King Jr. is in Heaven, it is because of the Catholic Church - not the heretical institution he belonged to.

By the way, being “good” doesn’t get you into heaven, even according to the Roman Catholic Church, except in so far as being good means placing one’s faith and trust in Jesus Christ and following Him. By grace we are saved (ie. justified) through faith, according to St. Paul.

Entirely agreed with what you said, but possibly not with the point you intended to make. You are not, by any chance, advancing the heresy of sola fides, are you? Bear in mind that at the end of time Christ will say to those on his right hand “I needed and you gave” - we are justified by works and by faith.

What gets you into Heaven is, ultimately, Jesus Christ and His Bride, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Nothing else is going to cut it.

 

[manualman]

Yes I am. I think no stream is perfect, but I do see more “fruits of the Spirit” in those who join Evangelical churches, than those who call themselves “Roman Catholic”.

By the way, even Catholic leaders such as Ralph Martin and Father Cantalamessa have recognised that it is a good thing when nominal South American Roman Catholics encounter a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in an Evangelical church.

Having spent much time in evangelical circles in college, I will agree that any person growing closer th Christ is a good thing. However, if the way they are doing so is by discarding solid doctrine and the sacraments Christ gave us to sustain us, in favor of an emotion and enthusiasm based version of Christianity, then the conversion may be short lived and become a disillusioned cynicism worse than their previous nominal catholicism a few years down the road. A telling thing about evangelicalism is the apalling turnover rate. The group I was in in college was scratching their heads over research data that showed that well over half of the people active in the group in college had dropped out of active faith life within 10 years!

I personally have done short term catholic mission work in Bolivia and can tell you that the evangelical mission work I saw going on was appalling. They concentrated on the upper middle and wealthy class in evangelization in the apparent expectation that the peasant class would follow after. They had great success partly because the catholic church was finally preaching about the immorality of exploiting the poor for the concentrated gain of the rich. No wonder the rich folk left in droves for “works-free” evangelicalism.

My evangelical friends are honest, sincere believers who genuinely trust in Jesus as the foundation of their lives. I just wish they could see the origin and effects of the flaws in their teachings!

 

[Ignatius]

I think we all need to learn very swiftly that the idea that “no stream is perfect” is a direct afront to the Roman Catholic Church. She is the only Church personally founded by Jesus Christ, and she IS perfect. Her teachings are perfect, and honest, and true. She is without flaws or blemish. She is the Church about which Christ said that the gates of Hell will not prevail.

Are individual members in her in error? Yes. But she herself is never anything except perfect and the Bride of Christ.

The Evangelical Churches do NOT have the fruits of the spirit - they are not gifted with them as they are not the Bride of Christ. Are individuals within them good people? Yes. Are they going to Heaven? Some of them, certainly.

They are going to Heaven in spite of their faith, not because of it. Their salvation is down entirely to the Catholic Church. There is no salvation outside of her.

Kudos, this is the real heart of the issue. The question is, “Will you going to follow the Church which Jesus Christ founded or one some men sixteen centuries later started?”

Here’s a little more info:
Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:
If you are of the Catholic faith, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you are Anabaptist, your religion was founded by Nicholas Storch and Thomas Munzer in Germany in 1521.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you belong to the Mennonites, your church was started in 1536 by Menno Simons in Switzerland.
If you are a Calvinist, Jon Calvin started your belief system in 1555 in Switzerland.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are Dutch Reformed, Michaelis Jones founded your church in New York in 1628.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek around 1836.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you are Seventh Day Adventist, your religion was founded by Ellen Whitein 1844 in Washington, New Hampshire.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If you’re Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the Topeka, Kansas in 1901 by Charles F. Parkham
If you are Assemblies of God your church grew out of Pentecostalism in 1914 in Hot Springs, Az.
If you are a member of Four-square Gospel, your church was started by Aimee Semple McPherson in L.A. in 1917.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith founded your church in Costa Mesa, Ca, 1965
If your organization is “evangelical nondenominational Christian” your group started in the 1970s by a group of protestants from other churches.

 

[Damascus]

Quick, what are the Fruits of the Spirit? OK, I’ll help: Love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control. No Evangelicals in Evangelical Churches with these attributes? Not Billy Graham? Or Martin Luther King Jr.?

By the way, being “good” doesn’t get you into heaven, even according to the Roman Catholic Church, except in so far as being good means placing one’s faith and trust in Jesus Christ and following Him. By grace we are saved (ie. justified) through faith, according to St. Paul.

But - not faith alone. Just ask estesbob. He can set you straight on that one.

Did you miss Bones thread on Benny Hinn? He thinks he is a spirit filled annointin man filled with healin powers. Check it out! So cool! He is committing crimes! Sounds like a spirit all right. Wonder who’s?

 

[Peterdiago]

I have a dirty little secret

With respect, that isn’t little - and it’s not just dirty. It horrifies me.

The good news is, they are at last filled with peace and at their spiritual “home” once they admit to themselves that is what they wanted all along -which I wish for everyone.

So you say that it is better that people move to a flawed church which does not have the fullness of truth or Christ in the Flesh there, because it feels good?

I accept the CCM as any Catholic must, as long as I can worship the way I want to I dont care what they do. And if they leave, oh well. I am sure it was never meant to be in the first place then.

“I pray that they all may be one, as you and I are one.” Words of Christ - He Himself wanted the Church to be one and unified. Never meant to be? Humans were created for a single reason - to get to Heaven and be with God. And the only way of doing that is the Catholic Church.

That is what she says - if you say you accept her, you have to accept that.