Charismatic groups

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samuraisedge18

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In the bible it is stated that prophecy is better than tongues. It says while it is helping you to know something that someone else doesn’t, it is better to know something and to share it. So could this be applied to charismatics meetings? They speek in tongues only among themselves. Please tell me if my undrstanding of that verse from the bible is wrong.
 
prophecy is indeed a better gift than tongues. Tongues do have their purpose though. They build up the person who prays in tongues.

There are some scriptures that teach on this often misunderstood subject.
 
The greatest of the spiritual gifts is love.Tongues is probably the least according to St. Paul.
 
I have been involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal for a while and I would like to share my personal reflections about
the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

There are 2 sets of the gifts of the Holy Spirit:

The first are the formative gifts: Those mentioned in the book of Isaiah and as Catholics are an integral part of the Sacrament of
Confirmation.

The second are the “Evangelistic Gifts”. These are the ones mentioned by St Paul in the Book of Corinthians. Of these one mentioned is “Speaking in Tongues”.

There are 3 different manifestations of tongues:
  1. In Praise and Worship and intercession:
    For example at Pentecost where the disciplines were “glorifying
    God” in different languages.
    Also, there are passages that speaks about the Spirit aiding us in prayer.
  2. In a Prophetic Message: This is where a “message” is spoken in a tongue that requires an interpretation for all to understand.
  3. In evangelism: The accounts of missionaries and the saints
    preaching the gospel in a language that the evangelist has no knowledge of.
Each of these has a distinctive purpose and in cases associated with a role in the body. I believe the Gift of Tongues as a part of
worship is for all. There is something marvelous when a body of
Christians are united in “singing in tongues” as a part of the worship of God.

The reason that love is “the greatest gift of the Holy Spirit” is to me to become more Christlike. In 1st John, we are told that God
is love. So to become Christlike is to be transformed by the work of God within us and to grow in “love” of God and neighbor.

Without this type of motivation, how can a true witness to God be possible. Without love, anything done for God to God or others
would to me lead to either repentance or to sin.

I believe that the Charismatic Renewal is something for all Roman Catholics and that God will continue to lead individuals into an encounter with God the Holy Spirit through the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” and many lives will be transformed.

Regards,
 
samuraisedge18 said:
In the bible it is stated that prophecy is better than tongues. It says while it is helping you to know something that someone else doesn’t, it is better to know something and to share it. So could this be applied to charismatics meetings? They speek in tongues only among themselves. Please tell me if my undrstanding of that verse from the bible is wrong.
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Here is the passage:thumbsup:

1 Corinthians 14
Prophecy a Superior Gift
1Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
2For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

3But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.

4One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

5Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

6But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

7Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp?

8For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle?

9So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.

10There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.

11If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me.

12So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church.

13Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

15What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

16Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?

17For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified.

18I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

19however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
 
Terry_from_Ypsi said:
There are 2 sets of the gifts of the Holy Spirit:
The first are the formative gifts: Those mentioned in the book of Isaiah and as Catholics are an integral part of the Sacrament of
Confirmation.
Click to expand...
The gifts of Isaiah 11 are first give in Baptism when we first become in-dwelled by the Holy Spirit. In Confirmation they are reinforced along with an increase in sanctifying Grace. It is in Baptism that we join Jesus Christ in the roles of priest, prophet, and king; we become his very brothers and sisters and adopted children of God. It is sanctifying grace that raises our human nature and makes us capable of sharing in the life of the Trinity. Our human nature does not become divine nature and we do not become God.

It is both Sacraments that fit us out to effectively carry our Faith out into the world; to renew the face of the earth…

The Catholic Charismatic movement has many books that discuss the various gifts of the Spirit. I would not go so far as to say that every Catholic should join the movement. It is one form of many valid forms of Catholic Spirituality. That is one of the strengths of the Catholic Faith, it has a lot of room under its tent.
 
what do you think is meant by saying that prophecy is better than tongues?
 
samuraisedge18 said:
what do you think is meant by saying that prophecy is better than tongues?
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Read what Paul says in 1 Corinthians about this. He answers your question. Speaking tongues is basically a selfish thing and does nothing to build up the community of the Church whereas prophesy is declaring the mysteries of faith to people and helps to build up the community of the church. This is why tongues is the least of the gifts.
 
It’s so nice to talk about Charismatics without getting insulted-every forum I’ve ever discussed in was always assailed with folks who only saw and believed bad things.This is a pleasure:D
 
samuraisedge18 said:
In the bible it is stated that prophecy is better than tongues. It says while it is helping you to know something that someone else doesn’t, it is better to know something and to share it. So could this be applied to charismatics meetings? They speek in tongues only among themselves. Please tell me if my undrstanding of that verse from the bible is wrong.
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Prophecy does edify the church while tongues edifies the believer but that doesn’t mean we don’t need the edification. In fact I’d go so far as to say that I need all the help I can get.

Gary
 
thistle said:
Read what Paul says in 1 Corinthians about this. He answers your question. Speaking tongues is basically a selfish thing and does nothing to build up the community of the Church whereas prophesy is declaring the mysteries of faith to people and helps to build up the community of the church. This is why tongues is the least of the gifts.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t say that praying in tongues is selfish. We need to be built up in order to function in the role which God has given us in the body of Christ. Would you also say that eating is selfish because it only benefits the eater?

Gary
 
garysibio said:
I wouldn’t say that praying in tongues is selfish. We need to be built up in order to function in the role which God has given us in the body of Christ. Would you also say that eating is selfish because it only benefits the eater?

Gary
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Eating is not for the benefit of one little miniscule part of the body. It is for the good of the whole body. The hand benefits from what the mouth receives. This is what prophecy does, speaking in a tongue that the rest of the body can not understand does not do this.

samuraisedge18,

Read all of 1 Corinthians 14.

Why is prophecy greater? Because prophecy builds up the body of Christ. Speaking in tongues does not do this unless there is an intrepreter. Then it will build up the body.
1 Corinthians 14
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1 Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy.
2
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.
3
On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, 3 encouragement, and solace. 4
Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church.
5
Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up.
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What is the mission of the Church, The Body of Christ, if not to evangelize the whole world? The best way to do that is to be able to speak to the people. You can not build up the Body of Christ if the people can not understand what you are saying. That is why prophecy is considered greater than speaking in tongues. Prophecy deals directly with the people. It helps to build up the Body of Christ on earth. Speaking in a tongue that the people can not understand does not. Like I said read all of 1 Corinthians 14.
 
I believe that the Charismatic Renewal is something for all Roman Catholics and that God will continue to lead individuals into an encounter with God the Holy Spirit through the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” and many lives will be transformed
Click to expand...
.

Terry_from_Ypsi
Hello Terry.
Could you tell me where in Church documents or the catechism there is any mention of “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”.?? I have been a Catholic a long time but had never heard this expression used anywhere but in protestant theology.

Having been baptized and confirmed Catholic, why would I need a protestant sacrament?

I recently ran across a blogspot of a woman who had been a Catholic charismatic for decades and she felt just the opposite of the way you do and does not recommend it and gives her reasons for feeling as she does. So whom should I believe?
Here is a link to her.

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/introduction.html
 
Sabda said:
Eating is not for the benefit of one little miniscule part of the body. It is for the good of the whole body. The hand benefits from what the mouth receives. This is what prophecy does, speaking in a tongue that the rest of the body can not understand does not do this.

samuraisedge18,

Read all of 1 Corinthians 14.

Why is prophecy greater? Because prophecy builds up the body of Christ. Speaking in tongues does not do this unless there is an intrepreter. Then it will build up the body.

What is the mission of the Church, The Body of Christ, if not to evangelize the whole world? The best way to do that is to be able to speak to the people. You can not build up the Body of Christ if the people can not understand what you are saying. That is why prophecy is considered greater than speaking in tongues. Prophecy deals directly with the people. It helps to build up the Body of Christ on earth. Speaking in a tongue that the people can not understand does not. Like I said read all of 1 Corinthians 14.
Click to expand...
I’m not denying that prophecy is superior to praying in tongues but you are missing my point. Just as we need food to edify our bodies, we need tongues to edify our spirits. You’ve heard the expression ‘‘A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.’’

Gary
 
byers said:
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Terry_from_Ypsi
Hello Terry.
Could you tell me where in Church documents or the catechism there is any mention of “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”.?? I have been a Catholic a long time but had never heard this expression used anywhere but in protestant theology.

Having been baptized and confirmed Catholic, why would I need a protestant sacrament?

I recently ran across a blogspot of a woman who had been a Catholic charismatic for decades and she felt just the opposite of the way you do and does not recommend it and gives her reasons for feeling as she does. So whom should I believe?
Here is a link to her.

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/introduction.html
Click to expand...
I scanned the document you linked to. It seems to me that her problems with the charismatic movement were of her own making.

She may not like the movement but the last three popes have. If you don’t believe me, you can find the relevant statements using Google.

We receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Confirmation although, in practice, it seldom kicks in like it should. In some countries infants are confirmed when they are baptized. I was seven years old when I was confirmed. I didn’t come to really understand the sacrament until I was in my twenties.

The baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a Protestant invention. It was what happened to the disciples on the day of Pentecost and is seen throughout all of Church history. (I’m typing this on my cell phone and don’t have my notes with me to provide any references but you should be able to find the info online.)

Gary
 
byers said:
.

Terry_from_Ypsi
Hello Terry.
Could you tell me where in Church documents or the catechism there is any mention of “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”.?? I have been a Catholic a long time but had never heard this expression used anywhere but in protestant theology.

Having been baptized and confirmed Catholic, why would I need a protestant sacrament?

I recently ran across a blogspot of a woman who had been a Catholic charismatic for decades and she felt just the opposite of the way you do and does not recommend it and gives her reasons for feeling as she does. So whom should I believe?
Here is a link to her.

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/introduction.html
Click to expand...
It’s a lot of tripe-never saw any of the occult stuff not even a hint. Not there there aren’t any abuses-by in large charismatics are very orthodox.No buddhists, no Hindu’s only Christ. I’ve never seen any occult paraphenalia at prayer meeting- only rosaries and bibles.Someone is either a little weird or else has an ax to grind.
 
garysibio said:
I’m not denying that prophecy is superior to praying in tongues but you are missing my point. Just as we need food to edify our bodies, we need tongues to edify our spirits. You’ve heard the expression ‘‘A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.’’

AND PREVIOUSLY

I wouldn’t say that praying in tongues is selfish. We need to be built up in order to function in the role which God has given us in the body of Christ. Would you also say that eating is selfish because it only benefits the eater?

Gary
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That is exactly why God gave us the Sacraments. Speaking in tongues is not the food that nourishes us. It is God’s grace which does that and His grace comes though the Sacraments, not speaking in tongues.
 
Sabda said:
That is exactly why God gave us the Sacraments. Speaking in tongues is not the food that nourishes us. It is God’s grace which does that and His grace comes though the Sacraments, not speaking in tongues.
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garysibio was not denying that-for some reason people think that we just rely on spiritual gifts and not the sacraments-totally wrong…We use the sacraments,devotions just like everybody else does.Charisms add and do not detract from the Sacraments.🙂
 
.
The charismatic movement has brought many people into our church, yet I still feel the potential for harming the poorly catechised is great.

When all the hoopla and adrenalin subside, will they know how to carry on in silent prayer? Or will they be stuck in a ritual of seeking greater and greater spiritual highs.

Speak in tongues in private all you want to, (for all St.Paul & I know y’all may be speaking in the language of angels) Just DO NOT chant them out loud in church unless an interpreter can tell everyone gathered there what you are saying-
otherwise people will wonder why you follow your own rules instead of St. Paul’s.

As for the laying on of hands-lets just say I view that as very problematic in the hands of the unwary, and dangerous for some-best left for ordained persons to administer.

The Holy Spirit will come to anyone who seeks Him in Truth.

.And the evil one is always alert for an easy target with an open door.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit" (I Corinthians 12:13).
 
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