Charismatic Postures

[Faith1960]

I agree.Just this past winter I San next to a man who coughed into his hand several times.When it came time for the Our Father he reached out to hold my hand.I told him it appeared as though he had a cold and I would rather not take his hand.He was a little put off by my comment but oh well
I also apply sanitizer right after the hand holding as a rule.

I use hand sanitizer after the Sign of Peace.

 

[hydin]

Most of what I see in Parishes are motions that are copied from the Priest. It shows the person doing them has no idea of the meaning of them and is simply following others.

Rubrics of the Mass explain what a Priest is to do and say. No such document exists for the laity except when to stand sit or kneel.

This is because the laity never prays on behalf of the people gathered as the Priest does. They also to not as in-persona Christi as the Priest does. The Church has reasons why we do or don’t do things in the Mass. For example, no Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion has the authority to bless anyone during Mass. That is reserved for the Priest. Why? He is the one ordained and responsible for his flock. EMHC can say something generic which is clearly stating they are not Blessing, like “May God Bless you” but even then no touching of the other should occur. That is the role of the Priest and always has been. Confusion will be cause if that role is assumed by anyone besides the Priest.

Basic rule of behavior at Mass is pretty simple. Does it take your focus off of God and worshiping Him? Do you think, oh I better move so I can reach the person next to me? Don’t do it… it is distracting. The entire Mass is a communal setting for worship. It makes no difference to God if you move your hands or hold hands… If it does to you then you should not do it… it is distracting you and you are adding something to the Mass that is not to be there. As a universal church one should be able to attend Mass anywhere and know what is being said or done. If you make motions and do not understand them then it is about you and not God. It is about being like others not worshiping God. One should never do anything in Mass that calls attention to themselves or makes it seem like they are more “holy” than another.

During the Our Father, if the person on your right holds your hand and the person on the left does not to you notice? Then it is distraction not an aide to worship. If the person on the left does not hold your hand is that person not part of “Us” in the prayer?

Any action that cause you or others to think about themselves during Mass is pulling you OR the other person from focusing on God. Those actions should not take place no matter the intent.

Small shifts cause a ripple effect. Trust the Church and its instructions versus doing what others do to be part of the crowd.

 

[pianistclare]

I just look straight ahead. People have me pegged by now, and now that I’m in the choir loft the choir all know that I don’t hold hands.

 

[pianistclare]

Most of what I see in Parishes are motions that are copied from the Priest. It shows the person doing them has no idea of the meaning of them and is simply following others.

Rubrics of the Mass explain what a Priest is to do and say. No such document exists for the laity except when to stand sit or kneel.

This is because the laity never prays on behalf of the people gathered as the Priest does. They also to not as in-persona Christi as the Priest does. The Church has reasons why we do or don’t do things in the Mass. For example, no Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion has the authority to bless anyone during Mass. That is reserved for the Priest. Why? He is the one ordained and responsible for his flock. EMHC can say something generic which is clearly stating they are not Blessing, like “May God Bless you” but even then no touching of the other should occur. That is the role of the Priest and always has been. Confusion will be cause if that role is assumed by anyone besides the Priest.

Basic rule of behavior at Mass is pretty simple. Does it take your focus off of God and worshiping Him? Do you think, oh I better move so I can reach the person next to me? Don’t do it… it is distracting. The entire Mass is a communal setting for worship. It makes no difference to God if you move your hands or hold hands… If it does to you then you should not do it… it is distracting you and you are adding something to the Mass that is not to be there. As a universal church one should be able to attend Mass anywhere and know what is being said or done. If you make motions and do not understand them then it is about you and not God. It is about being like others not worshiping God. One should never do anything in Mass that calls attention to themselves or makes it seem like they are more “holy” than another.

During the Our Father, if the person on your right holds your hand and the person on the left does not to you notice? Then it is distraction not an aide to worship. If the person on the left does not hold your hand is that person not part of “Us” in the prayer?

Any action that cause you or others to think about themselves during Mass is pulling you OR the other person from focusing on God. Those actions should not take place no matter the intent.

Small shifts cause a ripple effect. Trust the Church and its instructions versus doing what others do to be part of the crowd.

Yeah. All of this has been stated repeatedly, ad nauseum, here on CAF for years. We get it.
What we are speaking of, is those parishes where these things are encouraged and stressed by the leadership. And it often is.
I was told at my last parish job “we are a hand-holding parish. You must do it”.

I think everyone here knows the rubrics and various roles. We’re talking about places that clearly ignore them and the fact that you can’t really undo those things without people becoming upset or angry.
It’s a problem.

 

[buc_fan33]

I don’t have time to read through this whole thread, but I do want to say just a couple of things.

First, I have no affiliation with the Charismatic Renewal, but I would consider myself charismatic. I’m a “beginner” so to speak, only recently having been exposed to this. I don’t “raise my hands in the air” when I pray. I don’t scream in tongues. These are stereotypes, and certainly not my experience with charismatics. But, I’ve been prayed over, I’m convinced that I’ve head the Lord speak words of prophecy or knowledge, and I’ve seen miraculous healings. I’ve seen enough to be convinced that A) it is real and authentic, and B) it is completely based in Scripture and faithful to the Church.

But second, it disturbs me that charismatics are sort of “black-balled” by otherwise faithful, orthodox Catholics. Again, I’m a beginner. I’m far from an expert on this matter. But, I know a number of priests who are experts, and they tell me, among other things, that Popes Paul VI, St. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis have all affirmed the charismatic movement in the Church. (I hesitate to say Charismatic Renewal, as that is something specific. There are charismatic Catholics who aren’t part of the Renewal.) Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap., preacher to the papal household, is a well-known charismatic.

Personally, my definition of someone who is charismatic is someone who listens to the voice of God and follows the movements of the Holy Spirit. In other words, we ALL should be charismatic. The specific charisms are mentioned in Scripture, and without looking, I believe are affirmed in the Catechism.

The only openly charismatic parish I’m aware of is [Christ the King in Ann Arbor, Michigan](Christ the King in Ann Arbor, Michigan). Take a look at their website. Does this look like a parish that is not faithful to the Magisterium? For the record, their pastor is a friend of mine. I can affirm with absolute certainty that he is a saintly priest, and absolutely faithful to the Magisterium. This is a parish with perpetual adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and a parish that puts on average one young man into the seminary a year. If we know them by their fruits, as Jesus says, this doesn’t sound to me like a parish that has gone off the deep end.

Please understand…I’m not trying to criticize anyone who has commented on this thread. But rather, I’m trying to demonstrate that an overarching attitude that automatically labels someone as “wrong” who prays with his or her hands in the air, who dares to be friendly and hold hands at the Lord’s Prayer, who prays out loud, who blesses someone, is not of God.

I don’t know why, but “charismatic” has almost become synonymous with “liberal” or “dissident” in some circles, and I see this attitude creeping in here on CAF. Well, as an admittedly charismatic priest, I also frequently wear a cassock, always wear clerics in public, do the red and say the black when celebrating the liturgy, have no issue celebrating Mass in Latin, enjoy Gregorian chant, preach on chastity, the reality of sin, the necessity of repentance, and all that. In other words, I’m the furthest thing from a liberal that you will find. I recited the oath of fidelity with my hand on the Word of God, and would have absolutely no qualms doing so again. I’m not a dissident. So, please stop equating “charismatic” with “liberal” and “dissident.”

Perhaps I’m reading more into this than is there, but this is the third or fourth thread I’ve seen on here at the very least implying what I wrote above. If my inference is in error, I apologize. But, I don’t think that I’m off base here. If I am, please tell me why.

Edit: Link didn’t work. Here is it again. ctkcc.net

 

[DebChris]

I don’t have time to read through this whole thread, but I do want to say just a couple of things.

First, I have no affiliation with the Charismatic Renewal, but I would consider myself charismatic. I’m a “beginner” so to speak, only recently having been exposed to this. I don’t “raise my hands in the air” when I pray. I don’t scream in tongues. These are stereotypes, and certainly not my experience with charismatics. But, I’ve been prayed over, I’m convinced that I’ve head the Lord speak words of prophecy or knowledge, and I’ve seen miraculous healings. I’ve seen enough to be convinced that A) it is real and authentic, and B) it is completely based in Scripture and faithful to the Church.

But second, it disturbs me that charismatics are sort of “black-balled” by otherwise faithful, orthodox Catholics. Again, I’m a beginner. I’m far from an expert on this matter. But, I know a number of priests who are experts, and they tell me, among other things, that Popes Paul VI, St. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis have all affirmed the charismatic movement in the Church. (I hesitate to say Charismatic Renewal, as that is something specific. There are charismatic Catholics who aren’t part of the Renewal.) Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap., preacher to the papal household, is a well-known charismatic.

Personally, my definition of someone who is charismatic is someone who listens to the voice of God and follows the movements of the Holy Spirit. In other words, we ALL should be charismatic. The specific charisms are mentioned in Scripture, and without looking, I believe are affirmed in the Catechism.

The only openly charismatic parish I’m aware of is [Christ the King in Ann Arbor, Michigan](Christ the King in Ann Arbor, Michigan). Take a look at their website. Does this look like a parish that is not faithful to the Magisterium? For the record, their pastor is a friend of mine. I can affirm with absolute certainty that he is a saintly priest, and absolutely faithful to the Magisterium. This is a parish with perpetual adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and a parish that puts on average one young man into the seminary a year. If we know them by their fruits, as Jesus says, this doesn’t sound to me like a parish that has gone off the deep end.

Please understand…I’m not trying to criticize anyone who has commented on this thread. But rather, I’m trying to demonstrate that an overarching attitude that automatically labels someone as “wrong” who prays with his or her hands in the air, who dares to be friendly and hold hands at the Lord’s Prayer, who prays out loud, who blesses someone, is not of God.

I don’t know why, but “charismatic” has almost become synonymous with “liberal” or “dissident” in some circles, and I see this attitude creeping in here on CAF. Well, as an admittedly charismatic priest, I also frequently wear a cassock, always wear clerics in public, do the red and say the black when celebrating the liturgy, have no issue celebrating Mass in Latin, enjoy Gregorian chant, preach on chastity, the reality of sin, the necessity of repentance, and all that. In other words, I’m the furthest thing from a liberal that you will find. I recited the oath of fidelity with my hand on the Word of God, and would have absolutely no qualms doing so again. I’m not a dissident. So, please stop equating “charismatic” with “liberal” and “dissident.”

Perhaps I’m reading more into this than is there, but this is the third or fourth thread I’ve seen on here at the very least implying what I wrote above. If my inference is in error, I apologize. But, I don’t think that I’m off base here. If I am, please tell me why.

Edit: Link didn’t work. Here is it again. ctkcc.net

You mentioned the word “blessing.”
As a child, I did not leave the house without my mother’s blessing.
It was expected that I should not leave for school, or anywhere else without kissing my mother. I received the very traditional Catholic blessing on the forehead. Why should I go anywhere without God’s protection.
I continued this tradition with my daughter and her grandchildren.
As they were put to bed at night, they expected a hug, kiss and blessing. Although they are not part of the Catholic Church, my grandchildren continue the tradition. My son-in-law is a Presbyterian minister whom my grandson will bless in the very traditional Catholic fashion.

 

[Church_Militant]

Don’t sweat it. I don’t do any of that stuff and I was a Pentecostal for some time before I came home to the faith.

When it comes to the Our Father, my wife and I fold our hands and bow our heads and nobody bothers us. I don’t do the Orans position because it simply has no appeal to me. I don’t need to raise my hands when we pray that doxology or when we lift up our hearts. my heart is still lifted…

Worst case someone might mistake me for praying in tongues since I do pray the Our Father and Doxology in Latin but just quietly to myself. Most people don’t know that the cadence to the Our Father and Hail Mary is exactly the same in Latin and in English. Just attend to the Mass and don’t get all hung up in all that stuff. It is far more important what’s going on internally than all those outward gestures.

 

[otjm]

I take it you have done a thorough survey of various people in various parishes and come to such a fine conclusion.

Oh. You didn’t take a survey? Well you certainly hold yourself out as an authority of how other people feel and react.

It contributes nothing to the reverence of the mass, but pegs the needle on the touchy-feely meter.

It has been a while since anyone has taken such a snide swing at what others do in prayer and worship. it is interesting that some people hold kneeling in very high esteem, but you cannot find the charity to allow others another, additional bodily posture in their worship. I do not suggest it is necessary, or for that matter, important in an overall assessment of bodily postures at worship, but your denigration of it will certainly vie for this month’s put-down prize.

Knowing the transmissibility of various diseases, why hold the hands of someone who has coughed or sneezed into them?

I am immune compromised and have decided not to compromise my health for the sake of a 1970s innovation.

I can readily accept if you have a compromised immunity system. Most of us don’t, and most of us are not regularly getting sick after attending Mass and holding hands; and for that matter, neither are most of us getting sick from a centuries old practice of shaking hands when we great one another.

And by the way, I have a picture of a Mass taken somewhere between early 1966 and early 1977, of young adults holding hands during the Our Father, so it goes back 5 to 10 years more than your estimate.

I have no problem whatsoever if you have an issue with holding hands, and in particular, if you have a compromised immune system. that is not, however, carte blanche for scathing comments about others’ spirituality.

I am reminded of the comment by then Archbishop Chaput of Colorado, who said that both sides need to use charity towards others, whether they are hand-holders or not-hand-holders. I would suggest the Archbishop had a point. The people in the pews, and allegedly those in these forums, are our brothers and sisters in Christ; it would be nice if we all treated them as such, whether or not we like their postures.

 

[otjm]

I don’t have time to read through this whole thread, but I do want to say just a couple of things.

First, I have no affiliation with the Charismatic Renewal, but I would consider myself charismatic. I’m a “beginner” so to speak, only recently having been exposed to this. I don’t “raise my hands in the air” when I pray. I don’t scream in tongues. These are stereotypes, and certainly not my experience with charismatics. But, I’ve been prayed over, I’m convinced that I’ve head the Lord speak words of prophecy or knowledge, and I’ve seen miraculous healings. I’ve seen enough to be convinced that A) it is real and authentic, and B) it is completely based in Scripture and faithful to the Church.

But second, it disturbs me that charismatics are sort of “black-balled” by otherwise faithful, orthodox Catholics. Again, I’m a beginner. I’m far from an expert on this matter. But, I know a number of priests who are experts, and they tell me, among other things, that Popes Paul VI, St. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis have all affirmed the charismatic movement in the Church. (I hesitate to say Charismatic Renewal, as that is something specific. There are charismatic Catholics who aren’t part of the Renewal.) Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap., preacher to the papal household, is a well-known charismatic.

Personally, my definition of someone who is charismatic is someone who listens to the voice of God and follows the movements of the Holy Spirit. In other words, we ALL should be charismatic. The specific charisms are mentioned in Scripture, and without looking, I believe are affirmed in the Catechism.

The only openly charismatic parish I’m aware of is [Christ the King in Ann Arbor, Michigan](Christ the King in Ann Arbor, Michigan). Take a look at their website. Does this look like a parish that is not faithful to the Magisterium? For the record, their pastor is a friend of mine. I can affirm with absolute certainty that he is a saintly priest, and absolutely faithful to the Magisterium. This is a parish with perpetual adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and a parish that puts on average one young man into the seminary a year. If we know them by their fruits, as Jesus says, this doesn’t sound to me like a parish that has gone off the deep end.

Please understand…I’m not trying to criticize anyone who has commented on this thread. But rather, I’m trying to demonstrate that an overarching attitude that automatically labels someone as “wrong” who prays with his or her hands in the air, who dares to be friendly and hold hands at the Lord’s Prayer, who prays out loud, who blesses someone, is not of God.

I don’t know why, but “charismatic” has almost become synonymous with “liberal” or “dissident” in some circles, and I see this attitude creeping in here on CAF. Well, as an admittedly charismatic priest, I also frequently wear a cassock, always wear clerics in public, do the red and say the black when celebrating the liturgy, have no issue celebrating Mass in Latin, enjoy Gregorian chant, preach on chastity, the reality of sin, the necessity of repentance, and all that. In other words, I’m the furthest thing from a liberal that you will find. I recited the oath of fidelity with my hand on the Word of God, and would have absolutely no qualms doing so again. I’m not a dissident. So, please stop equating “charismatic” with “liberal” and “dissident.”

Perhaps I’m reading more into this than is there, but this is the third or fourth thread I’ve seen on here at the very least implying what I wrote above. If my inference is in error, I apologize. But, I don’t think that I’m off base here. If I am, please tell me why.

Edit: Link didn’t work. Here is it again. ctkcc.net

You are absolutely spot on in your assessment. Don’t apologize, and keep us all in your prayers. We all need to be open to the Holy Spirit in whatever fashion the Spirit may be leading us or using us (aware or not).

 

[Reuben_J]

I’m not part of the Charismatic Movement but my friend, whom I often go to Mass with, kind of is. I’ve picked up some of her postures and am now wondering if these are Charismatic?

When the priest says “The Lord be with you” and we respond with “And with your Spirit.” When we say that we sort of thrust our hands forward, palms outward toward the priest.

Then when we say the Our Father we hold hands and raise our held hands and free hands when we say “for thine is the kingdom and the power and glory for ever and ever. Amen”

Are these Charasmatic postures?

No, they are not Charismatic postures. Chances are those who do these probably do not know why they do so or if they do, most would think that by doing so they are participating more in the mass.

 

[goout]

I’m not part of the Charismatic Movement but my friend, whom I often go to Mass with, kind of is. I’ve picked up some of her postures and am now wondering if these are Charismatic?

When the priest says “The Lord be with you” and we respond with “And with your Spirit.” When we say that we sort of thrust our hands forward, palms outward toward the priest.

Then when we say the Our Father we hold hands and raise our held hands and free hands when we say “for thine is the kingdom and the power and glory for ever and ever. Amen”

Are these Charasmatic postures?

You’re asking for agreement on whether or not a practice can be characterized by a particular word “charismatic”.

You can characterize something all you want, and it remains a characterization and does’t say much of anything about the real person who is worshipping.
I think most people simply do it because the custom has caught on, it is intuitive to them, and it adds to their worship of God. The majority of people at our Mass use such gestures and are not what could be characterized as “charismatic”.

 

[DebChris]

No, they are not Charismatic postures. Chances are those who do these probably do not know why they do so or if they do, most would think that by doing so they are participating more in the mass.

You’re asking for agreement on whether or not a practice can be characterized by a particular word “charismatic”.

You can characterize something all you want, and it remains a characterization and does’t say much of anything about the real person who is worshipping.
I think most people simply do it because the custom has caught on, it is intuitive to them, and it adds to their worship of God. The majority of people at our Mass use such gestures and are not what could be characterized as “charismatic”.

As somebody earlier posted, outward gestures are less important than a person’s inward disposition. Don’t be so concerned about labels.
One person may enter the church and simply bow his or her head before entering the pew because of bad knees. Another will genuflect. Both are reverent as they kneel or sit in preparation before Mass even begins, unconcerned about anything else.

If somebody doesn’t want to hold my hand during the Our Father, it is not something to force. If you offer yours, I will take it. The prayer itself and that we are praying as a community of believers is more important the gestures.
There are ways of extending the Sign of Peace, for those who do not want to extend a handshake, without being rude. The simple bow of the head with hands folded as done in Asian cultures is the most common.
Going to Mass is not about me. I was taught as a young child that when I enter a church, I am entering God’s house. I am entering my Father’s house.

 

[otjm]

It continues to be a source of amazement and amusement to me that holding hands during the Our Father, and raising them up at the end, or taking the orans posture still, after about 50 years, raises so much angst. I seriously doubt that it is going to be stopped, if for no other reason than a fifty year run of the motions.

Some years ago (prior to when he was installed in Philadelphia in 2011, but not too long before) Archbishop Chaput sent out a public letter to his archdiocese of Denver. It was a bit lengthy for the subject matter, and it was clear that he was fed up with the whining about such matters - particularly about holding hands during the Our Father.

At one point - the date I no longer recall - the USCCB considered petitioning Rome concerning the orans posture during the Our Father, for specific allowance of the gesture; the petition was withdrawn, and the status quo - some do, some don’t, remains.

Archbishop Chaput I suspect knows more about liturgical rules than most of us who visit this forum (as I am aware that we have some priests and deacons who participate) and further is the chief liturgist in his diocese.

As the Archbishop said, there is neither a rule requiring either orans or holding hands, nor is there a rule prohibiting it. Further, he said both sides need to back off, and give respect to the other side. Which is short for saying if you want to, fine; if you don’t want to, fine, but both sides need to be charitable to the other side. Don’t force; and don’t be rude.

Yes (contrary to at least one poster herein) it does go back to the Charismatic movement. And yes, a very large number of people who do these things may have no knowledge of the source.

So what?

Rome, without any doubt, has known about the matter for decades and there have been at least 2 if not three revisions of the GIRM, as well as other documents detailing what is or is not to be done during the Mass, and Rome has been deafening in its silence about hand gestures/postures. Maybe, just possibly, there is a clue here? As in, it is not a matter of significance in the grand scheme of things?

My grandmother had advice for me as a child, (and which I heard with some regularity). she would say “Offer it up for the poor souls in Purgatory.” If you are disturbed by what your neighbor does or does not do during Mass, I would suggest taking my grandmother’s advice.

 

[Reuben_J]

As somebody earlier posted, outward gestures are less important than a person’s inward disposition. Don’t be so concerned about labels.
One person may enter the church and simply bow his or her head before entering the pew because of bad knees. Another will genuflect. Both are reverent as they kneel or sit in preparation before Mass even begins, unconcerned about anything else.

If somebody doesn’t want to hold my hand during the Our Father, it is not something to force. If you offer yours, I will take it. The prayer itself and that we are praying as a community of believers is more important the gestures.
There are ways of extending the Sign of Peace, for those who do not want to extend a handshake, without being rude. The simple bow of the head with hands folded as done in Asian cultures is the most common.
Going to Mass is not about me. I was taught as a young child that when I enter a church, I am entering God’s house. I am entering my Father’s house.

Perhaps that is a common life in the Church. Parishioners like to characterize something as from someone.

I was pointing to the comment whether the gestures mentioned were from the Charismatics. Like as if they were specific teachings within the Charismatic circle. And the answer is of course no, rightly or wrongly.

I am saying that because it is so common to see people who are obviously not belonging to the Charismatic group, I mean people that I know in small parishes or our cathedral, do make those gesture during the mass. So, why are they doing them? I don’t know. It is for them to know or do not know.

 

[EasterJoy]

It continues to be a source of amazement and amusement to me that holding hands during the Our Father, and raising them up at the end, or taking the orans posture still, after about 50 years, raises so much angst. I seriously doubt that it is going to be stopped, if for no other reason than a fifty year run of the motions.

Some years ago (prior to when he was installed in Philadelphia in 2011, but not too long before) Archbishop Chaput sent out a public letter to his archdiocese of Denver. It was a bit lengthy for the subject matter, and it was clear that he was fed up with the whining about such matters - particularly about holding hands during the Our Father.

At one point - the date I no longer recall - the USCCB considered petitioning Rome concerning the orans posture during the Our Father, for specific allowance of the gesture; the petition was withdrawn, and the status quo - some do, some don’t, remains.

Archbishop Chaput I suspect knows more about liturgical rules than most of us who visit this forum (as I am aware that we have some priests and deacons who participate) and further is the chief liturgist in his diocese.

As the Archbishop said, there is neither a rule requiring either orans or holding hands, nor is there a rule prohibiting it. Further, he said both sides need to back off, and give respect to the other side. Which is short for saying if you want to, fine; if you don’t want to, fine, but both sides need to be charitable to the other side. Don’t force; and don’t be rude.

Yes (contrary to at least one poster herein) it does go back to the Charismatic movement. And yes, a very large number of people who do these things may have no knowledge of the source.

So what?

Rome, without any doubt, has known about the matter for decades and there have been at least 2 if not three revisions of the GIRM, as well as other documents detailing what is or is not to be done during the Mass, and Rome has been deafening in its silence about hand gestures/postures. Maybe, just possibly, there is a clue here? As in, it is not a matter of significance in the grand scheme of things?

My grandmother had advice for me as a child, (and which I heard with some regularity). she would say “Offer it up for the poor souls in Purgatory.” If you are disturbed by what your neighbor does or does not do during Mass, I would suggest taking my grandmother’s advice.

The one that gets me is when everyone in the whole church holds their right hand out, palm down and elbow straight with their arm at a 30 or 45 degree angle from their body, as a gesture meant to imply the unity of everyone present with the priest giving a blessing. If you just took a photograph, it would look like whole church is giving a Nazi salute. Whether it is “allowed” or not, or needs permission or whatever, that one needs to go away.

 

[buc_fan33]

The one that gets me is when everyone in the whole church holds their right hand out, palm down and elbow straight with their arm at a 30 or 45 degree angle from their body, as a gesture meant to imply the unity of everyone present with the priest giving a blessing. If you just took a photograph, it would look like whole church is giving a Nazi salute. Whether it is “allowed” or not, or needs permission or whatever, that one needs to go away.

This is the second time in a few days someone has posted this, and I’m glad that you did. I wanted to respond in the other thread, but it was closed before I had the chance. No disrespect meant to you at all, but whether or not the two gestures resemble each other, this comparison is wholly inappropriate. Common table salt and sugar look like the exact some stuff. Gasoline and water look alike. But, we know that both are quite different. No one in their right mind thinks that people giving a gesture of blessing in such a fashion are in any way giving a Nazi salute.

Rather, I suspect something else is going on here, driven by an underlying bias against this gesture based on some equivocation of it with liturgical liberalism, a certain guilt by association, if you will. So, otherwise faithful, Catholics, due to an underlying aversion, ridicule this gesture by comparing it to arguably the most abhorrent regime the world has ever known. Again, this comparison needs to stop.

Personally, I think the action (within the context of a liturgical blessing) is kind of corny, and I have an allergy to anything corny. So, I wouldn’t encourage someone to do it. But please. People doing this mean well. For some, yes, particularly those in the charismatic movement in the Church (myself included) pray in this manner outside of the liturgy. To compare a posture of prayer with the salute of the Nazis is, quite frankly, beyond the pale.

Ok…this is only tangentially related, and certainly not directed at Easter Joy, whose post I quoted above. But, I want to comment on something in general and try to help people understand something, because I think this comparison perfectly illustrates it. I’m going to be completely honest here, and I pray that this is received well.

I and three or four other priests comment on here with varying degrees of regularity. But, there are tens of thousands of priests who don’t. Have you ever wondered why? Certainly, some aren’t interested. Others have no access to a computer. Others are unaware of these forae. But, I’ve spoken with many, many priests. Dozens in fact, about the Catholic Answers forums. Universally, to a man, they have told me that they would never, ever recommend these forae to a parishioner or RCIA candidate. In other words, priests intentionally stay away. Certainly, they, and I, would recommend Catholic Answers in generall. But the forums? Not so much. Put yourself in the shoes of your average lay Catholic for a moment, or better yet, a person potentially interested in entering the Church. What are so many topics on here focused on?

1. Varrying degrees of scrupulosity (is this a sin? Is this a mortal sin? Etc.)
2. Complaints about various perceived liturgical abuses. Even if these are legitimate, they foster the mentality that priests are all out to lead people astray, that you can’t trust your parish priest.
3. My priest said “x, y, z” in Confession. Is this right? See above. It fosters a distrust of clergy. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to counsel someone in the confessional when they have been fed erroneous information on a website such as this?
4. This action is wrong! This music is bad! Again, even if true, how does the average lay Catholic perceive this?

I know folks here mean well, and I’m sorry this needs to be said. I sincerely hope I do not insult anyone, or dampen anyone’s faith, as I know people who frequently post here are sincerely trying to lead a holy life. I would just humbly ask all of us to ask a very simple question before posting, “If this is the only exposure to the Catholic faith that a soul has in this life, will this post lead the person closer to the Church or further away?”

 

[babochka]

This is the second time in a few days someone has posted this, and I’m glad that you did. I wanted to respond in the other thread, but it was closed before I had the chance. No disrespect meant to you at all, but whether or not the two gestures resemble each other, this comparison is wholly inappropriate. Common table salt and sugar look like the exact some stuff. Gasoline and water look alike. But, we know that both are quite different. No one in their right mind thinks that people giving a gesture of blessing in such a fashion are in any way giving a Nazi salute.

Rather, I suspect something else is going on here, driven by an underlying bias against this gesture based on some equivocation of it with liturgical liberalism, a certain guilt by association, if you will. So, otherwise faithful, Catholics, due to an underlying aversion, ridicule this gesture by comparing it to arguably the most abhorrent regime the world has ever known. Again, this comparison needs to stop.

Personally, I think the action (within the context of a liturgical blessing) is kind of corny, and I have an allergy to anything corny. So, I wouldn’t encourage someone to do it. But please. People doing this mean well. For some, yes, particularly those in the charismatic movement in the Church (myself included) pray in this manner outside of the liturgy. To compare a posture of prayer with the salute of the Nazis is, quite frankly, beyond the pale.

Thank you, Father, for taking the time to give this explanation.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m not part of the Charismatic Movement but my friend, whom I often go to Mass with, kind of is. I’ve picked up some of her postures and am now wondering if these are Charismatic?

When the priest says “The Lord be with you” and we respond with “And with your Spirit.” When we say that we sort of thrust our hands forward, palms outward toward the priest.

Then when we say the Our Father we hold hands and raise our held hands and free hands when we say “for thine is the kingdom and the power and glory for ever and ever. Amen”

Are these Charasmatic postures?

Those postures are all too common around here. Not charismatic, just a misunderstanding by the laity on how they should respond. I blame poor catechisis and rampant innovation, with a healthy does of people just following what others do without a thought to why.

 

[Reuben_J]

This is the second time in a few days someone has posted this, and I’m glad that you did. I wanted to respond in the other thread, but it was closed before I had the chance. No disrespect meant to you at all, but whether or not the two gestures resemble each other, this comparison is wholly inappropriate. Common table salt and sugar look like the exact some stuff. Gasoline and water look alike. But, we know that both are quite different. No one in their right mind thinks that people giving a gesture of blessing in such a fashion are in any way giving a Nazi salute.

Rather, I suspect something else is going on here, driven by an underlying bias against this gesture based on some equivocation of it with liturgical liberalism, a certain guilt by association, if you will. So, otherwise faithful, Catholics, due to an underlying aversion, ridicule this gesture by comparing it to arguably the most abhorrent regime the world has ever known. Again, this comparison needs to stop.

Personally, I think the action (within the context of a liturgical blessing) is kind of corny, and I have an allergy to anything corny. So, I wouldn’t encourage someone to do it. But please. People doing this mean well. For some, yes, particularly those in the charismatic movement in the Church (myself included) pray in this manner outside of the liturgy. To compare a posture of prayer with the salute of the Nazis is, quite frankly, beyond the pale.

Ok…this is only tangentially related, and certainly not directed at Easter Joy, whose post I quoted above. But, I want to comment on something in general and try to help people understand something, because I think this comparison perfectly illustrates it. I’m going to be completely honest here, and I pray that this is received well.

I and three or four other priests comment on here with varying degrees of regularity. But, there are tens of thousands of priests who don’t. Have you ever wondered why? Certainly, some aren’t interested. Others have no access to a computer. Others are unaware of these forae. But, I’ve spoken with many, many priests. Dozens in fact, about the Catholic Answers forums. Universally, to a man, they have told me that they would never, ever recommend these forae to a parishioner or RCIA candidate. In other words, priests intentionally stay away. Certainly, they, and I, would recommend Catholic Answers in generall. But the forums? Not so much. Put yourself in the shoes of your average lay Catholic for a moment, or better yet, a person potentially interested in entering the Church. What are so many topics on here focused on?

1. Varrying degrees of scrupulosity (is this a sin? Is this a mortal sin? Etc.)
2. Complaints about various perceived liturgical abuses. Even if these are legitimate, they foster the mentality that priests are all out to lead people astray, that you can’t trust your parish priest.
3. My priest said “x, y, z” in Confession. Is this right? See above. It fosters a distrust of clergy. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to counsel someone in the confessional when they have been fed erroneous information on a website such as this?
4. This action is wrong! This music is bad! Again, even if true, how does the average lay Catholic perceive this?

I know folks here mean well, and I’m sorry this needs to be said. I sincerely hope I do not insult anyone, or dampen anyone’s faith, as I know people who frequently post here are sincerely trying to lead a holy life. I would just humbly ask all of us to ask a very simple question before posting, “If this is the only exposure to the Catholic faith that a soul has in this life, will this post lead the person closer to the Church or further away?”

Thanks for the post. I like posts that are saying the truth and criticize positively towards the objective of good Christians.

I have to say it again - negative and uncharitable criticism and comment is very much a common spectre in church and parish life. Thus what you have in the parish, you would have it here in CAF, for they are invariably the same people that you would encounter everyday in church life.

Considering that we are church people, it should be surprising but actually not a surprise, for we are no better than just anybody else including those who are not in the church.

Ours is a very big parish, urbane and the seat of an Archbishop. If one want to listen to all the back biting among the different church groups and the parishioners, one’s life would be dramatically cut short, if one is to listen to all of them.

It is not easy for the priests too as there is too much complain and criticism, many of which are personal in nature.

And the different groups would just loath each other’s gut.

Sometimes what happened at the parish meetings, one would think they were some kinds of union election campaign instead of by church leaders.

There are people, who are vocal and like to speak up, and these are usually being heard, of course that means whatever their personal character and opinion is. The silent ones on the other hand, and perhaps the ones we would like to hear, are usually silent.

What I am trying to say, unfortunately people like to be clever, know better than the next Catholic in the pew. And to be known as such would usually make them feel better.

Would it be any different in the Forum? So, this is the kind of thing we have.

Like you, I am concerned for RCIA candidates and new Catholics to refer to the Forum because really the answers are not to be found here but only (name removed by moderator)ut and opinion of the posters, who, God knows, can be just anybody.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

This is the second time in a few days someone has posted this, and I’m glad that you did. I wanted to respond in the other thread, but it was closed before I had the chance. No disrespect meant to you at all, but whether or not the two gestures resemble each other, this comparison is wholly inappropriate. Common table salt and sugar look like the exact some stuff. Gasoline and water look alike. But, we know that both are quite different. No one in their right mind thinks that people giving a gesture of blessing in such a fashion are in any way giving a Nazi salute.

Rather, I suspect something else is going on here, driven by an underlying bias against this gesture based on some equivocation of it with liturgical liberalism, a certain guilt by association, if you will. So, otherwise faithful, Catholics, due to an underlying aversion, ridicule this gesture by comparing it to arguably the most abhorrent regime the world has ever known. Again, this comparison needs to stop.

Personally, I think the action (within the context of a liturgical blessing) is kind of corny, and I have an allergy to anything corny. So, I wouldn’t encourage someone to do it. But please. People doing this mean well. For some, yes, particularly those in the charismatic movement in the Church (myself included) pray in this manner outside of the liturgy. To compare a posture of prayer with the salute of the Nazis is, quite frankly, beyond the pale.

Ok…this is only tangentially related, and certainly not directed at Easter Joy, whose post I quoted above. But, I want to comment on something in general and try to help people understand something, because I think this comparison perfectly illustrates it. I’m going to be completely honest here, and I pray that this is received well.

I and three or four other priests comment on here with varying degrees of regularity. But, there are tens of thousands of priests who don’t. Have you ever wondered why? Certainly, some aren’t interested. Others have no access to a computer. Others are unaware of these forae. But, I’ve spoken with many, many priests. Dozens in fact, about the Catholic Answers forums. Universally, to a man, they have told me that they would never, ever recommend these forae to a parishioner or RCIA candidate. In other words, priests intentionally stay away. Certainly, they, and I, would recommend Catholic Answers in generall. But the forums? Not so much. Put yourself in the shoes of your average lay Catholic for a moment, or better yet, a person potentially interested in entering the Church. What are so many topics on here focused on?

1. Varrying degrees of scrupulosity (is this a sin? Is this a mortal sin? Etc.)
2. Complaints about various perceived liturgical abuses. Even if these are legitimate, they foster the mentality that priests are all out to lead people astray, that you can’t trust your parish priest.
3. My priest said “x, y, z” in Confession. Is this right? See above. It fosters a distrust of clergy. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to counsel someone in the confessional when they have been fed erroneous information on a website such as this?
4. This action is wrong! This music is bad! Again, even if true, how does the average lay Catholic perceive this?

I know folks here mean well, and I’m sorry this needs to be said. I sincerely hope I do not insult anyone, or dampen anyone’s faith, as I know people who frequently post here are sincerely trying to lead a holy life. I would just humbly ask all of us to ask a very simple question before posting, “If this is the only exposure to the Catholic faith that a soul has in this life, will this post lead the person closer to the Church or further away?”

Amen