Charismatic Prayer Meeting

[SPOKENWORD]

JCPhoenix:

Exporter,

I’m not “sold” on anything. Yes, I was somewhat excited as I’m interested in the movement…yet I don’t know if it’s for me. If I was as "sold’ as you imply I would not have bothered to post a thread asking the advice of others. In fact, if you read my first post you would see that I believe I had an experience in the past which was negative.

Oh, and for everyone else, just to avoid confusion…I’m actually a woman!

Jc, Thats great that you are a women for you should feel right at home. You will find [in my oppinion] very few men in these meetings. They must be home babysitting. God Bless.

 

[dhgray]

For anyone who is interested, there is a Vatican approved Catholic Family ministry called Couples for Christ (CFC). The CFC is Charismatic and their saying “Families in the Holy Spirit Renewing the Face of the Earth”.

This ministry is approx 1.5 million members stong in 120 countries (and growing). CFC also has ministries for Singles, Youth and Kids as well as ministries for couples whoes partner can not attend (either by choice of circumstance).

Through the power of the Holy Spirit and by the Grace of God and our Lord, I have (first hand) seen marriages saved, rebelious teens return and order restored to the family and yes even physical mircles (bodies healed).

You can e-mail / PM / IM me for more information.

 

[Makerteacher]

JC, I am sorry I did not see this post before you had to decide whether or not to go. So fill us in: didja go? What was it like?

here’s what our prayer meetings are like:

I am a member of a covenant Catholic Charismatic Covenant Community in Dallas called The Christian Community of God’s Delight. We (our community) go to Mass in our own parishes, and then gather weekly on Sundays at 4 PM in addition, for praise, prayer, and teachings. Prayer meetings always start with the reading of today’s Scriptures, and usually consist of about 45 minutes of praise and worship music, several teachings and word gifts, and a half hour or more of prayer as a group.

The singing is GREAT! We have volunteer music ministry people who play several instruments: a piano, several guitars, a flute, two violens and a viola, a french horn, etc. Also two sets of drums. A lot of our music comes from the Holy Holy is The Lord series, published by Franciscan University Press, and also from what we call the “Old Orange Songbook”, which is a compilation of tunes writen by Catholic charismatics, tunes from the other sources used withy permission, and assorted older public domain hymns. Ours just happen to be bound in old orange plastic hardcovers. We often start with very exhuberant hymns, like Shout To The North and The South, and gradually wind down to a more prayerful place with songs like “Be Exalted” and “Holy Lamb of God.”

Word gifts make up about 45 minutes of our meeting, and are usually varied from exhortations, prophecies, testimonies, and some Scripture sharings. Often people will share something they heard during their prayer time thyis past week, or something that they are reading that moved them. We have a couple of real theologians who give once a month teachings (fourth Sundays) on various documents from our Church such as encyclicals and so forth. One of the leaders is the one discerning during this time, meaning that people who believe they have something to share come and tell him what they have, and he dioscerns whether or not they should speak, and if so, in what order.

Word gifts are followed by what we jokingly call “The Scrum.” Everyone who feels a need to be prayed for can choose to come sit in a circle we quickly create at the center of the room. They will be prayed for by one or more of the SDLC leaders of our Community. Their prayer intention or need will not be made known to the entire group there unless they want it to be. (We do have a phone tree that can send our urgent prayer needs to the whole community but it is reserved for emergencies like car wrecks, surgeries, etc.) If a person wants the whole gathered community to pray for them, they can let the leader know and their prayer will be added to the public inentions. Some people prefer NOT to do this and we have tried to make it as private as possible for them.

While the SLC leaders are praying individually with the people assembled, our PM leader leads the intentions on the microphone for all of us who are gathered around the Scrum, connected by hands on one another’s backs and shoulders. Prayers during the Scrum time run the gamut from prayers for world leaders, wars, social issues, personal needs, healing, and thanksgiving.

Usually, total PM time is two hours, though we have been known to finish sooner and to run longer than that. All are invited to join us on Sundays at 4 pm in Dallas, TX. 4500 W. Davis at Cockrell Hill, on the grounds of Our Lady of Charity convent, in the gym!

 

[JCPhoenix]

Hi everyone,

MakerTeacher, thanks for that very detailed description! That does help.

I ended up not going. On Monday evening after work (meeting was to be on Tuesday) I called the contact person listed in the bulletin, and got voice mail which clearly identified that I’d reached the correct person. I left a message with my phone numbers.

She never got back to me. At that point I couldn’t even make a decision to go without having my questions to her answered because I had NO IDEA where the meeting was held…it gave a room in the school, but I had no desire to endure the following:

1. Rush home from work, let the dogs out, feed all of us, rush off;
2. …to the Church/school, then wander aimlessly about the hallways until I happen to stumble upon the correct location, having had stress build up…
   3…stemming from not being sure in the first place, not knowing ANYONE there at all, and not having had a chance to relax after a very stressful several weeks at work and add this very odd stress on top of it.

Maybe if she’d called I could have gone, maybe not. I don’t know. And you know what? Still no call from her, no “Sorry, missed your call, come next week…let me answer your questions.”

It doesn’t give me an impression that this representative of the group is very welcoming. Sure, it’s a holidy week, but if she’s out of town, why list her as the contact when there are likely others who could assist --this is the first time a note appeared in the bulletin.

I did learn that another parish somewhat nearby might be a Charismatic parish, and there are some public and very orthodox people who attend there. I may have to check it out.

I haven’t made any real decision regarding the group in my own parish–trying to be charitable, and my own stressed-out condition does not lend to being able to rationally handle small annoyances right now! I will let you know if I learn anything and decide to go.

So please, anyone…keep on posting your experiences, I am still interested in reading all!

 

[Les_Richardson]

Makerteacher:

here’s what our prayer meetings are like: …

…Usually, total PM time is two hours, though we have been known to finish sooner and to run longer than that. All are invited to join us on Sundays at 4 pm in Dallas, TX. 4500 W. Davis at Cockrell Hill, on the grounds of Our Lady of Charity convent, in the gym!

(Trimmed for space)

Sounds fascinating! If I’m ever in Dallas on a Sunday afternoon…

 

[Les_Richardson]

This is the “Toronto Blessing”, which is not Catholic, and certainly not approved by Catholic Charismatics. Why do you keep using non Catholic and abusive Catholic situations?
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_204v.gif

This is not a valid criticism, and may deter Catholics from embrasing an approved movement which may be so beneficial a Spiritual experience for them.

JC is looking to embrace a wonderful movement, led by a Parish Priest, and you are throwing rocks in his path. He specifically asked for helpful information about Catholic CR.

Do you really think this is the Holy Spirit prompting you to keep trying to undermine a legitimate and approved movement of the Church by using criticism of non-Catholic worship? Would you criticize the Mass using Protestant examples? Or better yet, would you feel those criticism would be valid if someone threw them at you?

JC asked for experiences with CATHOLIC Charismatic prayer groups. The only reason you would even mention something negative is that he could be aware of possible pitfalls. As I see it the main problem is with poor leadership, or not connected with a Catholic Parish or organization. If you have some information about an authentic Catholic group, connected with a Catholic Parish or organization, with good leadership please share .

If not smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_5_3.gif

There is a reason Mysty101. The ALPHA program so popular in Catholic circles today has a pedigree through Nicky Gumbel, John Wimber and others right back to that Toronto Blessing. Examine what it teaches, go to the retreat weekend and tell me that Catholic theology with respect to the Holy Spirit is being taught. It is not.

Furthermore, without specific testing of the manifestations (however tame) in any group, Catholic or non-Catholic you, nor anyone else can be certain that what is going on is from the Holy Spirit, from auto-suggestion or from another spirit. Without that block, without that theological guidance, not just pastoral guidance, not just in a Catholic church, there is no way to know without walking into the meeting itself what is actually happening. And then you may not know. There is danger here. And on a strictly experiential basis there is no barrier, and from there is a straight line that runs to the Toronto Blessing.

People are inviting it in to the Church, probably without realizing it. I repeat, there is danger here and I for one will not zip it. I haven’t the ability or authority to fight it straight on or I would.

A person’s salvation does not depend on joining a charismatic prayer group, but it may depend on avoiding the wrong one.

I know you don’t or won’t see it, but not everything that has an official stamp from the pastor or the Bishop is of the Holy Spirit necessarily. Just look at Church history, or even American Church history.

 

[robertaf]

Les Richardson:

… There is danger here. And on a strictly experiential basis there is no barrier, and from there is a straight line that runs to the Toronto Blessing.

People are inviting it in to the Church, probably without realizing it. I repeat, there is danger here and I for one will not zip it. I haven’t the ability or authority to fight it straight on or I would.

A person’s salvation does not depend on joining a charismatic prayer group, but it may depend on avoiding the wrong one.

I know you don’t or won’t see it, but not everything that has an official stamp from the pastor or the Bishop is of the Holy Spirit necessarily. Just look at Church history, or even American Church history.

Hi Les
I have read many of your posts. As you may know, I go way back in the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church. I have been a teacher, a prayer group leader and involved with SCRC, one of the largest Charismatic groups in the USA.

To my knowledge, we have always separated ourselves from Protestant Charismatics and that includes the Toronto Blessing.

I almost hate to post this because it makes us sound very eletist. It sounds like we are “putting down” the Toronto Blessing and we aren’t. It is simply not Catholic and we are. We are very aware of our roots and where the contemporary Catholic Charismatic Renewal started and it was not within non-Catholic worship, no matter how hard critics try to make it so. The main similarity is the move of the Holy Spirit. It is the same God, as we all know.
We, Catholics, are always brought into the heart of the Sacraments and especially the Eucharist. That is who we are.
Non-Catholics must find worship in a different way.

If you would take a truly open minded and honest look at the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, you would see the difference.
If you, like some others choose to discriminate between the various things in the Church, Blessed and encouraged by the Holy Father and other Cardinals and Bishops, in order to make them fit your own likes and dislikes, so be it. If you only see abuses in this one area, that is up to you. I have seen profound abuses in the Marian movements. I do not ever want to see any Marian group put down because of it. We can all cite abuses in the Church. How could we not, the Church numbers almost a billion humans, all of us flawed. No one perfect.

Don’t you think Holy Mother Church, as big as She is, is able to embrace all of us?

 

[Les_Richardson]

robertaf:

It sounds like we are “putting down” the Toronto Blessing and we aren’t. It is simply not Catholic and we are.

If you know anything at all about the Toronto Blessing you should put it down, vehemently. It was not of the Holy Spirit. If anyone maintains that it was, we do not worship the same God.

There is so much to say **robertaf **and I recognize your effort at good will. If it sounds to you like I have been putting down the CCR then I fear you have not been reading my posts. No matter. My desire, at the very minimum is that those who are part of the movement would open their minds to think. Just that I would be happy with at this point. And I would suggest a close reading of Fr Castalamessa. He is a friend of the movement. Read him and think about what he says is happening with respect to baptism, confirmation, “tied” sacraments and so on.
If you do, you may see the bigger picture of salvation, how it ties into the reasons behind Vatican II, and begin to realize that what has been such a large feature of the movement is a small part of the big picture. I don’t know for sure but I get the impression that men like Ralph Martin have the bigger vision. I’m sure if you ask him he would say that he sees the movement as the future of the church, the revitalization of the entire Church. A worthy goal! And I would love to see that myself.
But it will not happen with the movement as it is. Call that my charism if it helps you to understand what I’m saying. Prophecy.

No, the Catholic movement is not like the others. But is that all that it will ever be? Simply a movement in the Church parallel to other movements and a matter of taste? If the movement were to re-examine its theology and make adjustments (that’s about as nicely as I can put it) it has the potential to be so much more than it is. Maybe the people in the movement are not ready. You cannot tell me though, having been with the movement as long as you have, that you haven’t thought about how far it could go in renewing the Church. It is a Renewal after all.

It is a shame but there are some that just don’t want to think about it, almost as if they fear thinking about it. That is sad. The theological adjustments need to be made for the other reason as well. The movement is not static. Nothing is. The influences that are entering the Church will not let the movement remain “in innocence”, if you will. There are people that have set their sights on the Catholic Church and the doorway is the CCR. And their goal is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ as we know it. It is a synchretistic drive that has the ear marks of the false gospel that is warned about in the Bible. The people in the movement that refuse to think are sitting ducks.
That is why I linked to the Toronto Blessing in the first place. The CCR is not immune the way it is now, not without adjustment. Seeing the end result has shock value, if nothing else. It can’t happen? I would want to make sure of that.

 

[gnome]

robertaf:

We are very aware of our roots and where the contemporary Catholic Charismatic Renewal started and it was not within non-Catholic worship, no matter how hard critics try to make it so. The main similarity is the move of the Holy Spirit. It is the same God, as we all know.
We, Catholics, are always brought into the heart of the Sacraments and especially the Eucharist. That is who we are.

Roberta,
please correct if this is not correct: CCR was not started by the Church, nor by any local Bishops/Pastors. If it was, it would have come with a pastoral guidelines to followed. During or after the 1967 event, some Catholics (priests included ??) went over to the Pentecostals to receive their “baptism in the spirit”.

According to the Church’s teaching, we Catholics do receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit (as He wills) through the Sacraments, right? So does CCR practices imply that the Sacraments are somehow not full or complete?

 

[robertaf]

gnome:

Roberta,
please correct if this is not correct: CCR was not started by the Church, nor by any local Bishops/Pastors. If it was, it would have come with a pastoral guidelines to followed. During or after the 1967 event, some Catholics (priests included ??) went over to the Pentecostals to receive their “baptism in the spirit”.

According to the Church’s teaching, we Catholics do receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit (as He wills) through the Sacraments, right? So does CCR practices imply that the Sacraments are somehow not full or complete?

Greetings Gnome. I cannot answer your statement about Catholics going over to the Pentecostals to receive the “Baptism of the Spirit”. In the 1960s in Southern California, where I was, when we saw this great move of the Holy Spirit, we had lots of non-Catholics attending our Prayer meetings. We had one of the largest in Southern California, numbering at one time about 1,500, if I remember right. I am going to admit it was a very confusing time in the entire Christian Church. This awesome move of the Spirit changed even our separated brothers and sisters as well as us Catholics.

Other denominational Pentecostals had been around for decades. They were what we use to call, “holy rollers”. One of my grandmothers and that side of my family were part of that denomination. They never had drawn Catholics or mainline Protestant denominations to their way of worship, at least in any significant way.

Needless to say, the Catholic Church was never a popular place for Protestants to flock to back in the `60s. Division was a powerful thing back then. Being a convert in the 1950s, I lived through the ugly anti-Catholic/anti-Protestant bigotry. It had a nasty affect on my life for quite some time.

At any rate, I know Baptist pastors who came face to face with the move of the Holy Spirit along with parts of their congregation. They ended up being kicked out of their Churches. The same thing happened in Episcopalian Seminarys and many new Charismatic seminarians were asked to leave and were taken in at Catholic seminarys.

I do not know if you were involved with the Church during and right after Vatican II or not but there was a major upheaval like a huge earthquake had hit.

Most of the Protestants I knew in the Charismatic Renewal was coming to the Catholics for Baptism in the Spirit. We were not going to them.

The Baptist pastors I mentioned above, moved on and started the first non-denominational charismatic church in the area. It grew very fast, taken in Protestants from all over the area.

The birth of the non-denominational churches that we see today, started this way, and mostly out of Catholic Charismatic Prayer groups.

Oh and by the way, you say the Renewal was not started by the Church… Well, depends on what you call the Church. We are as much the Church as any local pastor or Bishop is. The Holy Spirit leads the Church and we did have very strong Pastoral leadership back then. Did we make some mistakes? Oh you bet we did. But we worked hard at recognizing the mistakes and correcting them. It didn’t take long before we had the Blessings of the Holy Father and those folks you call “the Church” . Shouldn’t that count for something?

 

[robertaf]

Hi Les,

To be honest, I do not know a great deal about the Toronto Blessing and you are right, I do try to show a bit of good will unless I do know something bad about a situation.

It also appears I have not read your postings as well as I thought, and I do apologize if I mistook what you were saying. It is so hard to do on line.

What you said in your last post is very interesting.
I do not believe it was ever the intention of the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal was to be a movement. I have never liked that term. I believe, in my heart that the intention was to Renew the whole Christian Church, following Vatican II. I saw it as Vatican II being the flower and the Renewal being the fruit. When we first started using the term the “Spirit of Vatican II” we were actually saying “the Holy Spirit of Vatican II”. In fact I can remember it being shortened. Funny how folks nowdays can ridicule this statement. We shouldn’t ever have shortened it.

My vision, and I think many others was that the Renewal would be the heart of the Church. I have heard Bishops speak of this very same vision. I believe the Holy Father has implied the same thing, himself. I still have this vision.

I can see you have something of the same.

The Church, throughout her history is constantly renewing Herself and in fact, constantly correcting Herself. We have a 2000 year history of understanding and misunderstanding the Holy Spirit. We have made mistakes in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I do not know any Charismatic that will deny that. We have come under extreme Spiritual attack through the years and the enemy has tried to destroy this move of the Holy Spirit. He still is trying.

I would love to hear the rest of your vision. I am interested in the theology you would see changed. What I will resist with whatever strength I have left is “tossing the baby out with the bathwater” as others would have us do. If we have things broke, lets get them fixed not trash the entire thing.

I would like to read Fr Castalamessa. I am not familiar with him. I know Ralph Martins work well. I agree with you where he is concerned.

 

[JCPhoenix]

I spoke with the contact of the local Charismatic group.

She seemed nice, and I asked her to describe the meeting to me.

Apparently they START with praying in tongues! (I’m a bit uncomfortable with this).

I also learned that there really is not leader…a priest whom I know and who sometimes holds Life in the Spirit seminars is there only when he is able to be…so he’s not really a leader for them. When he is there he does teach as he is very involved in Charismatic Renewal.

I also learned that he will be leaving soon, going back to his home country, so that also causes me some concern. It seems this group may have started on their own and I fear that I may run into some “progressive” Catholics and I have no desire to be a part of that. Of course, without going I really don’t know, but in my experience parishioners who don’t have pastoral leadership, no matter what the event…tend to lean away from orthodoxy.

I may still go…but at this point I have to say I’m a bit disappointed in what I’ve learned so far. Honestly, I will need a BIG sign from God if that’s where he wants me to be.

I do still consider another local parish, one I mentioned earlier…so please don’t take this to mean that I am no longer interested or discerning. I just somehow don’t think that the group through my own parish is quite right.

This may change, but over time I’ve learned to go with my intuition–usually it’s the Holy Spirit talking to me- so I’ll just wait and see what happens.

I’m open to God’s will, so if you could all please pray for me, that I find my place within the Church where I can best serve…I’d really appreciate it!

 

[robertaf]

Greetings

It appears to me that there are too many negatives for you for now. You are feeling too many doubts and fears about it at this time. I would recommend you hold off.

In the meantime, I would suggest you go for some other form of good adult religious education. Maybe find a good Catholic Bible study, parish ministry class or even join a small group for prayer.

I would wait for a Charismatic prayer group until you feel solidly grounded in your faith, without feeling any of these doubts. Then when you do, I do believe you would be most comfortabe with a deacon or priest present. I would also recommend you attend at least 6 times before you decide one way or another if it is for you.

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

In the very first post it was stated that Jesus speaks to us through Scripture. That is so true. He is alive, but in a different way than the Eucharist. We have a Charismatic Prayer meeting at our church in Spanish. Besides all the things mentioned here, they also have those who tell how God’s grace has changed their lives. I wish that they would have a group in English, but there is not enough interest.

May God bless you,
Deacon Tony SFO

 

[JCPhoenix]

In October, I was at a harvest party at a friend’s home, through a local Catholic group. As usual, the priests of our parish attended as they could.

One of them, whom later learned he is the one involved in Charismatic Renewal and provides Life in the Spirit seminars, sat down with us in the livingroom. After awhile he suggested that we share an experience in which our Guardian Angel may have been involved, share our favorite hymn, and then pray to the person to the left of us. (We were in a circular pattern around the room).

It was a wonderful experience and I felt as though the Trinity was in our midst that night. We ended by praying over Father and a woman who had attended and was about to have her first child. It really was beautiful.

If that was what a Charismatic prayer meeting was like ALWAYS I would definitely attend. We had the leadership of a priest, we had prayer, we had singing…and we all seperated that evening feeling very blessed. We all seemed to have been touched by at least one person’s story, if not more. There was no tongues, no falling, no prophecy…just Catholics sharing our real life contact with the Holy Spirit and maybe our Guardian Angels.

 

[gnome]

robertaf:

Needless to say, the Catholic Church was never a popular place for Protestants to flock to back in the `60s. Division was a powerful thing back then. Being a convert in the 1950s, I lived through the ugly anti-Catholic/anti-Protestant bigotry. It had a nasty affect on my life for quite some time.

At any rate, I know Baptist pastors who came face to face with the move of the Holy Spirit along with parts of their congregation. They ended up being kicked out of their Churches. The same thing happened in Episcopalian Seminarys and many new Charismatic seminarians were asked to leave and were taken in at Catholic seminarys.

I do not know if you were involved with the Church during and right after Vatican II or not but there was a major upheaval like a huge earthquake had hit.

Most of the Protestants I knew in the Charismatic Renewal was coming to the Catholics for Baptism in the Spirit. We were not going to them.

The Baptist pastors I mentioned above, moved on and started the first non-denominational charismatic church in the area. It grew very fast, taken in Protestants from all over the area.

The birth of the non-denominational churches that we see today, started this way, and mostly out of Catholic Charismatic Prayer groups.

Oh and by the way, you say the Renewal was not started by the Church… Well, depends on what you call the Church. We are as much the Church as any local pastor or Bishop is. The Holy Spirit leads the Church and we did have very strong Pastoral leadership back then. Did we make some mistakes? Oh you bet we did. But we worked hard at recognizing the mistakes and correcting them. It didn’t take long before we had the Blessings of the Holy Father and those folks you call “the Church” . Shouldn’t that count for something?

thanks Roberta for your informative reply which is helpful for me. Once the CCR is established, if the Protestants going thru CCR and receive the Sacraments to become Catholic, then praise God. However the 1967 event I mentioned is how the Catholic charismatic movement started, which led to the forming of CCR. You can read about it even from some CCR websites
.
You are right the blessings of Holy Father says alot, but from what I read, his support is for the CR Catholics who gather to praise the Holy Spirit, why should any Pope not support that? However, there’s no statement that specifically support or gives direction to the devotional practices occur during a CR prayer session. For instance, the Holy Father gave us the 5 Luminous Myteries of the Rosary, we know exactly what they are when we pray. Same with the Divine Mercy chaplets.

btw, the Baptist pastors you mentioned who, after CCR, moved on to start their non-denominational church, how could that happens if they were guided by the Holy Spirit who established His only Church? Would you say it must be the bad spirit who guidance is to break away instead of to build up His Church?

I agree w/ you we are as much the Church… but I also believe there’s such thing as a hierarchy we must observe. The same Body but the hands/feet cannot think/interpret like the head.

 

[gnome]

JCPhoenix:

In October, I was at a harvest party at a friend’s home, through a local Catholic group. As usual, the priests of our parish attended as they could.

One of them, whom later learned he is the one involved in Charismatic Renewal and provides Life in the Spirit seminars, sat down with us in the livingroom. After awhile he suggested that we share an experience in which our Guardian Angel may have been involved, share our favorite hymn, and then pray to the person to the left of us. (We were in a circular pattern around the room).

It was a wonderful experience and I felt as though the Trinity was in our midst that night. We ended by praying over Father and a woman who had attended and was about to have her first child. It really was beautiful.

If that was what a Charismatic prayer meeting was like ALWAYS I would definitely attend. We had the leadership of a priest, we had prayer, we had singing…and we all seperated that evening feeling very blessed. We all seemed to have been touched by at least one person’s story, if not more. There was no tongues, no falling, no prophecy…just Catholics sharing our real life contact with the Holy Spirit and maybe our Guardian Angels.

I’m with you almost 100%. I’m never tired of the sing & praise and I don’t even mind the upbeat music. Praying for others is what we’re about, but I would not pray with my hands over someone b/c I believe that’s reserved for a priest/bishop.
I have similar wish in a CR meeting but based on the CR people I talked to, taking out the 3 things you mentioned would make the CR prayer meeting no longer charismatic.