Charismatic Renewal - assent of faith

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When people reach out to God, then He replies in His ‘timing’. We have prayer. And people are meant to pray for one another.

I can see how some might go to Mass and then, afterwards, have a special individual blessing that is a deliverance / exorcism / healing prayer, such as the Sacrament of Healing, but this is a very particular and recognised event. Yes, the Mass and the prayers have happened. The appeal for general healing and help, has been made. One can also pray afterwards but this is normally in view of the fact that one has just received Holy Communion.
 
The CCR never said anywhere, that God acts immediately for everyone with miracles.
You need to read the ICCR links provided of the Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission into the CCR.

Most people who attend a healing service are not healed. Most probably receive the grace to carry their cross.

It is biblical also; to pray for healing, and leave it up to God. The people in town lined up all their sick on the streets for the apostles to pray over.
Jesus said in the bible: ‘If anyone one of you is sick, lay your hands upon them and pray for their healing.’

The apostles, after Pentecost, both celebrated Eucharist and continued to pray for the sick in villages they met.
 
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Friardchips,
You stated this ‘might be of the Holy Spirit’

This has already been decided upon by the last 4 Popes, Vatican II, Vatican, and Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission,
YoungCatholicGuy said:
The Vatican’s Doctrinal commission’s duty is to discern if something is: supernatural in character (from God), theologically free of error, and worthy of belief for the faithful.
That has been done by the Vatican’s doctrinal commission of the CCR, there are no theological errors/ it is of God/ and is worthy of belief, (same as for every catholic, when each of the individuals involved remain faithful to the Catholic Church, and submit to their priests discernment).

The Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission has approved the CCR, along with the Popes, Vatican, and Bishops.
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Are you disapproving entirely, or shedding doubt on something, that has been approved by Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission into the CCR, along with the Popes, Vatican, and Bishops?

If the Vatican’s Doctrinal commission, Popes, Bishops, Vatican, state something to be theologically free of error, supernatural in character (from God), and worthy of belief for the faithful, Then it is those things that the Magisterium of the Church state that it is.

Of course you are worried of false wolves and yes the Magisterium of the Church have dealt with this woth the CCR by stating: any extraordinary charism is under the discernment of bishops/ priests, and loyalty to catholic teachings is something that is of God in this also.
 
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I’m honestly not seeing anything “forced” in this day and age. Like I said, introducing new twists into the Mass was a 70s thing.

These days, if one is going to a charismatic service, one knows this in advance and it is generally something separate from the regular Mass schedule. I simply don’t see charismatic influence creeping into the regular practice of Catholicism these days.
 
But you stated yourself Friardchips that you have not read even one of the links provided into the Vatican’s doctrinal Commission into the CCR (which is all the ICCR website links).

One cannot come to a decision about something without looking at all the evidence provided.

You are stating your own theological opinion is above the Magisterium of the Church’s approval of the CCR.

The Magisterium has said: it is of the Holy Spirit, (but states extraordinary charisms are under discernment of one’s priest/ bishop, and that loyalty to catholic teachings is paramount always).

You say: it ‘might’ be of the Holy Spirit, and that we have to be concerned with what might contradict the truth.

Even Pope Francis in 2015 stated: it is not a movement; it is Biblical, it is simply the Holy Spirit as at Pentecost. For all members of the church.
 
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I’m not judging people’s personal experiences. Not for me to discern. Am discussing the subject, objectively.

The thread is from a critical position, with room to understand the situation a little better. Although it might not change my feelings of distaste.

Am guessing, logically, that there will be a difference between what those representing the Church in that area have declared (in the relevant documents I am yet to read) to do with subject and the ideas of those involved in the movement, the difference being the lack of perspective and proportion, often leading to important questions from those who are not involved.
 
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It is subtle but it does affect things i.e:- noise, is not always spoken.
 
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You are worried about false wolves and errors, but the Magisterium has provided the directive of this about that concern: anything extraordinary is to be under priests/ bishops discernment, and devout loyalty to the Catholic faith is paramount.

Why be ‘objective’ about something, and have ‘distaste’ toward something that the Magisterium of the Church has approved as of supernatural in character (of God), theologically free of error, and worthy of belief?
Something the Magisterium have stated is not a movement, but simply the Holy Spirit continuing His biblical work, for all members of the Church.
 
I have not used the Pope in any of my posts in this thread for my own purposes. An ex-cathedra declaration reflects the already held view of the Church. The current status of the Charismatic Renewal, is that it is a movement. It is not doctrinal (or so I believe). I don’t know where you saw Pope Francis’ comment that it is not a movement, but even then, his words are often misinterpreted to fit an agenda and so depending on the source, you might have read incorrect information. I do not like people pitting me against the Pope as if this is my intention.

Even with apparitions, which are recognised, we don’t have to give our assent of faith to them, although I do give my assent of faith to some. So, the Charismatic Renewal is hardly on the level of something we have to believe. It can never be doctrinal, because, while we can choose to think it is the Holy Spirit, we cannot prove it, in the same way that we can prove apparations as being miraculous, or Dogmas, which are firmly rooted in Scripture. Neither is it on the level of a Council. Councils, being guided by the Holy Spirit. Neither can it be on the level of an encyclical, because of Papal succession.
 
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Friardchips

I provided the link to Pope Francis speech that the CCR is a biblical continuation of the Holy Spirit’s work and not a movement.
Please read links before you keep repeating your own ‘opinion’.

Also your own opinion is entirely against the whole Church Magisterium:
Vatican II Council, Vatican, Bishops, the last 4 Popes, and the Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission into the CCR (which the Popes refer to), all have approved the CCR as of God.

The Vatican’s doctrinal commission approval means the CCR is supernatural in character (of God), free of theological error, and worthy of belief.

They have said it is not a current movement, but a biblical continuation of the Holy Spirit’s work at Pentecost.
Do you disagree that biblically the Holy Spirit has been continuing His work since Pentecost?

You believe the entire Church Magisterium is wrong?

(Please read the ICCR Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission links into the CCR before you reply, as these explain why the CCR is just a biblical continuation of the Holy Spirit’s work at Pentecost, and not a movement).
 
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'…Cardinal Leon-Joseph Suenens, said: “May the Charismatic Renewal disappear as such and be transformed into a Pentecostal grace for the whole Church:…"

Has the Renewal disappeared and found its place ?..

"The river must be lost in the ocean. Yes, if the river comes to a halt the water becomes stagnant; should the Renewal, this current of grace, not end in the ocean of God, in the love of God, it would work for itself and this is not of Jesus Christ, this is of the Evil One, of the father of lies. "

Also…Blessed Pope Paul VI, said: “It is not a specific Movement; the Renewal is not a Movement in the common sociological sense…”.

In other words, it is not a movement in the “sociological” sense that we would normally understand the term ‘movement’. It is still a Movement within the Church - of a difference kind.
 
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DebCWil said:
The First Pentecost is the Birth of the Christian Church. It is when the Apostles met in the Upper Room and were filled with the Holy Spirit as it descended upon them.
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When you refer to this as the “First Pentecost” are you implying that this was not the only Pentecost and that other Pentecosts have happened subsequent to this?
 
'Isaiah 48: 1-11 -

'Listen to this, House of Jacob,
you who bear the name of Israel,
and have sprung from the seed of Judah;
you who swear by the name of the Lord
and invoke the God of Israel
though not in good faith or uprightness-
calling yourselves after the holy city
and bolstering yourselves on the God of Israel,
whose name is Lord Saboath.

Things now past I once revealed long ago,
they went out from my mouth and I proclaimed them;
then suddently I acted and they happened.
For I knew you to be obstinate,
your neck and iron bar,
your forehead bronze.
And so I revealed things beforehand,
before they happened I announced them to you,
so that you could not say, 'My idol was the one that
performed them,
it was my carved image, my image of cast metal,
that decreed them.’
You have heard and seen all this,
will you not admit it?

Now I am revealing new things to you,
things hidden and unknown to you,
created just now, this very moment,
of these things you have heard nothing new until now,
so that you cannot say, ‘Oh, yes, I knew all this’.

You had never heard,
you did not know,
I had not opened your ear beforehand;
for I knew how treacherous you were,
and that you have deserved the name of rebel from your birth.

For the sake of my name I deferred my anger,
for the sake of my honour I curbed it; I did not destroy you.
And now I have put you in the fire like silver,
I have tested you in the furnace of distress.
For my sake and my sake only have I acted-
is my name to be profaned?
Never will I yield my glory to another.’
 
Acts 8: 30-31 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
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Your quote from Isaiah seems out of place, without interpretation. Do you mean to condemn by selectively using scripture, to advance your opinion?
 
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It seemed relevant but then rethought it and tried to edit (delete) but the editing function for that post had gone.
 
Jesus also said:
‘These are the signs which will accompany believers: they will speak in other tongues, they will heal the sick, they will cast out demons. They will do the same works I do and greater, because I will send them the Holy Spirit.’

‘If any of you is sick, lay your hands upon them and pray for their health.’

‘Seek the higher gifts. Pray for the gift of tongues, but pray also that you will interpret tongues. He who prays in tongues edifies himself, but the one who interprets tongues prays with understanding. More so pray for the gift of prophecy, for the one who prophesies edifies the church.’

‘How much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask?’

The Popes, Vatican II, Vatican, ICCR, Vatican’s Doctrinal commission, have said this is all not a new revelation. It is private revelation because the Vatican has said all charisms are under the discernment of one’s priest or bishop. It is the Holy Spirit working as He was prophecied to work in all believers by Jesus Himself in scripture.

Scripture also says: ‘Are all prophets? Are all healers? Are all miracle workers? Do all speak in tongues?’
Which does tell us that the extraordinary charisms are rare. Most people will just have a deepened prayer life as a result of the CCR.

So Friardchips,

The last 4 Popes, Vatican II, Bishops, the Vatican’s Doctrinal commission into the approved CCR are all in error, and you alone are correct, using Solo Scriptura?

So a Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission which has stated the CCR is supernatural in origin (private revelation from God), theologically free of error, and worthy of belief by the faithful, (which has also been approved by the Popes, Bishops, and Vatican)
According to you this is error based on your ‘opinion’ using solo scriptura?
 
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I can see the three dots and pencil mark but not working to delete or edit.

Yes, the condemning thing, not being my place, is why I wish to delete it.

Still, there is a kind of relevance, maybe, because of the words in which we are told about things being newly revealed. Things are given at God’s discretion. We cannot force God’s gifts.

But it might be a misuse of the text and so therefore am not comfortable with it remaining. Not much I can do about it, seemingly.
 
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