Charismatic Renewal - assent of faith

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‘Certainly, the Spirit blows where he wills; one can never expect to impose rules and conditions on him. The Chris ian community, though, has the right to be informed by its Pastors about the authenticity of charisms and the reliability of those who claim to have received them. The Council recalled the need for prudence in this area, especially when it regards extraordinary charisms.’

We are not meant to place conditions on God.

‘Prudence’ called for, in the ‘discernment’ (a word previously quoted from this document) of charisms, especially when it is concerning extraordinary charisms.
 
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Yes Vatican II states there are charisms and we cannot force the Spirit, and to use prudence/ discernment.

Which is exactly what the bishops/ Popes/ Vatican/ Vatican doctrinal commission approval of the CCR, also state. They state be open to the Holy Spirit, and that the little gifts of faith/ hope/ love are the greatest gifts. That extraordinary gifts are under the discernment of one’s priest/ bishop.
(Stating the exact same thing as Vatican II).

Where is the quoted evidence from the Popes/ Vatican/ bishops/ Vatican doctrinal commission to support your ‘opinion’ that the CCR says to force the Holy Spirits gifts?
The CCR says be open to the Holy Spirit. It never says to force the Holy Spirit. The majority of people in the CCR just experience a deep conversion, which is still a powerful grace.
(Friardchips you said you have zero experience of the CCR, and have not read the Vatican’s doctrinal commission documents of approval about the CCR, therefore your opinions are just uninformed opinions. You need to go to all the evidence of the Popes/ Vatican/ Bishops/ Vatican Doctrinal Commission documents approving the CCR before you start going against something approved by the Church Magisterium).

Please provide a quote from the bishops/ Popes/ Vatican/ Vatican doctrinal commission approval of the CCR, where you see ‘error.’

Are you still trying to use Vatican II as ‘solo vaticanura’ to contradict 4 Popes/ Vatican/ bishops/ Vatican doctrinal commission approval of the CCR, ?
(Which the Vatican doctrinal commission into the CCR approved as supernatural in origin (private revelation from God), theologically free of error, and worthy of belief by the faithful.

So you are saying the Church Magisterium is in error and your ‘opinion’ is above the Church Magisterium?
 
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Last quote from the ‘charism’ document provided by a poster:

'However, the Apostle equally stressed the need for unity, which itself answers a sociological demand, but which in the Christian community should even more be a reflection of the divine unity. One Spirit, One Lord.
Thus, one Church! ’

Going back to this post from the ‘38th National Convocation of RnS in Italy, in July 2015’, we see that Blessed Pope Paul VI stated: “…the Renewal is not a Movement in the common sociological sense…”.

So, the movements of the Holy Spirit within the Church answers more than a sociological demand.

Therefore, we have to conclude, that where charisms are discerned, placement into correct context, is key.
 
Please provide a quote from the bishops/ Popes/ Vatican/ Vatican doctrinal commission document of approval of the CCR, where you see ‘error.’ of people putting ‘conditions’ on God, and not using ‘discernment/ prudence.’

All the CCR is about is renewing commitment / openness; to Jesus/ Holy Spirit. According to the Church Magisterium. We accept what God gives us.

Most people in the CCR just experience a deep conversion.

And the Church Magisterium has already said that charisms are to be put under discernment of one’s priest/ bishop. (The discernment and prudence you mention; is already there).

Is that putting a condition upon God and is an ‘error’, which you believe contradicts the Popes/ vatican/ Bishops/ Vatican Doctrinal Commission approval of the CCR?
 
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…edited this post and am reposting here as my editing abilities seem to be limited in number.

Last quote from the ‘charism’ document provided by a poster:

'However, the Apostle equally stressed the need for unity, which itself answers a sociological demand, but which in the Christian community should even more be a reflection of the divine unity. One Spirit, One Lord.
Thus, one Church! ’

Going back to this post from the ‘38th National Convocation of RnS in Italy, in July 2015’, we see that Blessed Pope Paul VI stated: “…the Renewal is not a Movement in the common sociological sense…”.

So, the true movements of the Holy Spirit within the Church answers more than a sociological demand. The Renewal Movement is apparently moreso a reflection of Divine Unity.

Where charisms are discerned, placement into correct context, is surely key. Has the Renewal, as time has gone on, shown to have brought not just unity but furthermore reflected, those things we know to be true of the Catholic faith? Because, as we are told, things are known by their fruits.
 
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The Vatican doctrinal Commission has already answered all these questions you are wondering about ‘context’ of the charisms, and ‘fruits’ of the CCR.

You should read ALL the ICCR Vatican doctrinal Commission documents before you come back to the thread Friardchips,

Or else this thread will last forever as you quote paragraph by paragraph to us, and ask us questions on each paragraph 😭
 
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Some words jump out at me from this link:
  • ‘euphoria’
I don’t see that as a word suitable in relation to Catholicism.
  • ‘The Statutes marked a renewed relationship of trust and confidence between ICCRS and the Council for the Laity, and officially recognised ICCRS as a body called to serve and to promote the Charismatic Renewal throughout the Church’.
I thought that we were supposed to serve God through the Church, not a Movement.
  • ‘Pope John Paul II invited representatives of all the movements and new ecclesial communities to a special gathering to pray for a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit.’
So, an invitation to movements, and individual communities. Seems to me that the outpouring was already present but that people were invited to the banquet, so to speak. And, not that we went and formed something new that forced gifts upon us. God is eternally present and so the invitation is always there. We ask, we pray, for an outpouring. St. Pope John Paul II does use the words ‘new outpouring’, yet I think that realisation is in context, theologically.
 
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Yes there may have been organisations present (religious orders, Legion of Mary prayer groups, eucharistic ministers, different groups / movements present at thr Pope’s speech you are quoting,

But

Already stated by Pope Francis/ The Vatican Doctrinal Commission/Bishops/ Vatican, that the CCR is not a movement, but the work of the Holy Spirit as mentioned in the New Testament.
 
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You are not reading what I have already posted. The Renewal is a movement but apparently not a mere sociological one. In that, if it is from God, it is for the whole Church and will reflect that of our knowledge of God. As I understand of it, from reading the material provided.
 
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We have to respect other people’s wills. We have freewill. Unless something is obligatory to believe, no one else has the right to infringe upon that person’s right to believe, or not believe. Even then, ‘infringement’, is not a good word. ‘Edification’, yes. ‘Just defence’, yes. And I will continue to keep questioning, until I see something that supports this whole movement. One can disagree and question as much as one chooses. I am guessing that this ‘Renewal’ can never be doctrine and so I will probably never support it, and will continue to try and find some reasoning that casts a clearer light on the subject.
 
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So you are going to continue contradict 4 Popes/ Vatican/ bishops/ Vatican doctrinal commission approval of the CCR, ?
(Which the Vatican doctrinal commission into the CCR approved as supernatural in origin (private revelation from God), theologically free of error, and worthy of belief by the faithful.

So you are saying the Church Magisterium is in error and your ‘opinion’ is above the Church Magisterium?
 
So your opinion is above the entire Magisterium of the Church?

When has the entire Church Magisterium as a unified whole ever supported something that was of satan?

Since when has someone who has no knowledge or experience of a particular thing, somehow got an opinion that is above the entire Church Magisterium’s ruling on something?
 
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I am quoting the Church Magisterium.

You are quoting your opinion of something you have said you have no knowledge or experience of, and even stated that you have not even read the Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission documents approval of the CCR and are still throwing around your ‘opinion’ to contradict all the Church Magisterium’s ruling on this.
 
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https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm

'Pope John Paul II, for his part, has been more explicit. Speaking to a group of international leaders of the Renewal on December 11, 1979, he said,

I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church.’

He said, he is convinced. But the word ‘convinced’ does not mean that all are required to believe.

'For his part, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has added his voice to the Pope’s in acknowledging the good occurring in the Charismatic Renewal and providing some cautions. In a forward to a book by Cardinal Suenens, at that time the Pope’s delegate to the Charismatic Renewal, the Prefect comments on the Post-Conciliar period stating,

At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.’

So, the Charismatic Renewal is considered to be a Movement, although I think I already explained this, in more complicated terms.
 
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‘Pope Benedict 16th tells 100 new bishops to welcome the charisms of the Holy Spirit among the laity and reminds them it is their duty to discern the authenticity of such charisms…’

This is from a video posted that does not give any mention as to the ‘Charismatic Renewal’ (from what I heard).

Pope Emeritus’ words speak of the subject of ‘charisms’.

The ‘charisms’ document from the same post also does not mention the ‘charismatic renewal’.
 
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Again, 19 hours later you still have not looked at the ICCRS Vatican Doctrinal Commission documents on the CCR which show Papal approval of the last 4 popes for the CCR, bishop approval, Vatican approval, and Vatican Doctrinal Commission approval.

The last 4 Popes/ Vatican/ bishops/ Vatican doctrinal commission have approved the CCR,
(Which the Vatican doctrinal commission into the CCR approved as supernatural in origin (private revelation from God), theologically free of error, and worthy of belief by the faithful.

You are looking for quotes to support your ‘opinion’ that the Holy Spirit’s work is actually a ‘human movement’ , in order to try to contradict the last 4 Popes/ Vatican/ bishops/ Vatican doctrinal commission approval of the CCR.

You are trying to push your ‘opinion’ of something you have said you have no knowledge or experience of, and even stated that you have not even read the Vatican’s Doctrinal Commission documents approval of the CCR and are still throwing around your ‘opinion’ to contradict all the Church Magisterium’s ruling on this.

The Vatican doctrinal Commission has already ruled on this.

Is your ‘opinion’ above the Church Magisterium?
 
Why are you posting unrelated material that takes the subject into other areas? Both the video of Pope Emeritus and also the charism document does not seem to be addressing the ‘Renewal’.

The subject of charisms/gifts is obviously wider and deeper than the ‘Renewal’, which is not, as I understand things so far, obligatory to believe.

The Pope can have an opinion on an apparition different to mine. I don’t have to agree with him. Same with this.

You are taking the movement out of its place and putting it in too high and broad a position, it seems. As if everyone must believe the Renewal to be entirely relevant. I don’t happen to think that is the case.
 
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Posting references of the Popes to charisms is also part of this discussion.

And still why 19 hours later have you not looked at one of the Vatican doctrinal Commission documents of approval of the CCR, (you could easily have read these documents instead of posting comments on something you stated have no experience of, no knowledge of, and which you are trying to contradict the Vatican Doctrinal commission/ Popes/ Bishops/ Vatican (whole church magisterium) approval of the CCR.
 
No, posting references of Popes speaking about charisms, which is scriptural, is not part of the discussion, it is veering off. It is not in direct relation to the topic of the ‘Renewal’.
 
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If it is ‘not your cup of tea’ say so, and choose devotions you wish to follow,

But it is another thing entirely for a catholic to go online and without any knowledge/ experience of something/ without having researched the Vatican doctrinal commission on that topic, to try to contradict the Popes/ Vatican/ Bishops/ Vatican doctrinal commission of something (that they have approved as supernatural in origin, theologically free of error, and worthy of belief by the faithful).

Since when has the Magisterium of the Church in unified unanimious unison, approved of anything that came from satan, or that was error?

Since when , has someone with self admitted; no knowledge/ experience/ complete Vatican research of something, have an opinion that is above the entire Church Magisterium’s approval of something.
 
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