Charismatic Renewal - assent of faith

  • Thread starter Thread starter friardchips
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Going back to elaborate on this post, where it says: ‘So, it is not a new event’…we see that St. Pope John Paul II, said that it is a ‘new outpouring’, so I was standing corrected, and then I wrote, it is new, in context, theologically. By that I mean, that God is eternally present, while also acting in a ‘new’ way. I wonder whether this is the two-way understanding that God is both outside of time - being the beginning and the end - but acts within time (linear). So, the graces are always there, have always been, with God as the Divine source, while at the same time, events are experienced as new, to us. Also, because we are in God, it could be said that God both acts and has acted.

Relating to the thread-subject, of the ‘Renewal’, Pentecost has already happened but we do relive it and remember it, both, I believe, but this does not mean a second Pentecost, but rather, the original Pentecost is being lived out, within us, and through us, liturgically. Along with the whole of Scripture, because Revelation is The Word of God. Scripture is the Word of God.

In terms of a kind of ‘baptism of fire’, we can come alive in the Spirit, but I recognise this as a conversion or reversion / conversion. Sometimes post-baptism. Is that the Scriptural Pentecost event happening within our hearts? Certainly, it seems to come by way of opening a door. I would say that to state scriptural Pentecost as being the sole movement of a person’s will towards conversion, in grace, as too specific. It is more likely that conversion has happened because of the whole of Revelation, via grace, and because God has invited said-person to conversion, which, in some way said-person has responded to, in, with and through the Word of God.
 
Last edited:
Going back to a previous post, I said that it was Blessed Pope Paul VI, who said that the ‘Renewal’ is not a movement. In fact, I think it was the Cardinal who said that:

‘Pope Paul VI blessed this. The Cardinal continued, saying: “The first error that must be avoided is including the Charismatic Renewal in the category of a Movement. It is not a specific Movement; the Renewal is not a Movement in the common sociological sense; it does not have founders, it is not homogeneous and it includes a great variety of realities; it is a current of grace, a renewing breath of the Spirit for all members of the Church, laity, religious, priests and bishops. It is a challenge for us all. One does not form part of the Renewal, rather, the Renewal becomes a part of us provided that we accept the grace it offers us.”’

As we can see, the paragraph with Blessed Pope Paul VI’s mention, ends with the words ‘…blessed this’. It then goes on to speak of the Cardinal’s words.
 
Last edited:
Now, to move on to what Pope Francis has stated, in his address -

http://w2.vatican.va/content/france..._20150703_movimento-rinnovamento-spirito.html

Despite my strong reservations, to put it mildly, expressed previously in this thread, as to the ‘Renewal’, Popes have spoken about the ‘Renewal’ with positive affirmation.

Pope Francis puts the area into a context - which is within the Church. With emphasis being, not so much large gatherings, but one’s everyday lives. And Blessed Pope Paul VI, too, previously expressed thanks for the ‘Renewal’.

He did use the words Pentecostal and ecumenism within the framework of discussion.

It was Cardinal Leon-Joseph Suenenswent who to the U.S and made his mind up about what he experienced there.

I don’t think we have to give our assent of faith to the ‘Renewal’, and I remain unconvinced, yet I am not going to step on the faith of those who do practice in that area, as the Holy Spirit might be at work there, somewhere, and who am I to say He is not. That said, I don’t have any reservations about questioning and confronting.

At the very least, I think that context is an absolute must.
 
Last edited:
  • We know that grace flows through the Catholic Church and always has done.
  • In the Gospels, we know that the Holy Spirit pours out His gifts on mankind, and has done throughout Salvation History.
  • The ‘Renewal’ has its place, apparently, in the Church (and not the other way around).
  • God can give us ‘new’ things whenever He Wills it, in His omniscience.
  • Graces flow through the Church, which has a hierarchy of grace; this being:
God: The Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Holy Mother.
The Angels and Saints.
The Pope and Magisterium.

So, when we pray, we, along with the Saints and the whole Church, pray, with and through the Holy Mother, who is the Mystical Spouse of the Holy Spirit, to the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, who intercedes at the right hand of the Father, all in the power of the Holy Spirit.
 
Last edited:
Just want to state:

Any infallible teaching, from Popes and the magisterium, including dogmas, are to be given our assent of faith.

If questioning the charismatic renewal in some way goes against the Holy Spirit, in doing so, then I do not wish to be seen as questioning it.

If my questions were valid and I was free to be able to question, discuss and even give critique, while remaining in obedience, then I stand by my concerns.

My motivation for the thread was more geared towards challenging this subject than wishing to understand it, I think, and so it might well be that I have been disingenuous in conveying something different.

Possibly, there is a specific means, a correct avenue, through which we ought to contend such things, rather than putting every issue up online.

Certainly prayer is the first way to offer up our concerns.
 
Last edited:
So if you agree with the Popes that the CCR is not a movement (it is the Holy Spirit working as the New Testament says the Holy Spirit works),
And if you agree that it is not something new, it is the Holy Spirit working through the faithful as always has been,
And if you agree that the fruits, gifts and charisms of the Holy Spirit are biblical and have been and still are at work for the Church,

And you do not wish to question the Magisterium of the Church,

Then what is your problem with the CCR?

Also you keep mentioning ‘avenues’, ‘context,’ ‘within the church,’

You stated you have no experience or knowledge of the CCR,
What is it that you imagine happens at a Catholic Charismatic prayer group/ healing service / conference that is error?
It always involves more than often; a priest, confessions, rosary, catholic preaching, hymns of praise, testimonies (people might mention how Jesus helped them and answered prayer), mass, adoration, confessions, bible reading, asking people to renew their baptismal promises, make a personal commitment to Jesus (conversion), individual prayers over everyone (and there is only usually only one person -guest speaker- with an extraordinary charism such as healing, who will have the approval of his priest, bishop, and sometimes the Pope, to exercise his ministry),

What is your concern about this?

People flocked to Saint John Vianney, and Saint Padre Pio for the same reasons, seeking maybe a healing, or the grace to convert. To confess. To recommit to Jesus.

Basically you accept the Holy Spirit works through His gifts and charisms but you are afraid of the words CCR,

If the charisms are biblical and you accept that they are ongoing today,
The only thing you are cautious of is the word ‘Catholic Charismatic Renewal’ (which the Church magisterium has approved unanimously, because it is not a movement but the Holy Spirit at work as always through history)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top