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AbideWithMe
Guest
Good point.
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MarMax
Guest
Yep.
I’m not Catholic, but, wow, MarMax.
People in that video were singing to God, and you have the hubris to pronounce it “trash”?
The songs are trash. The singers’ intent may be fine, better than mine even, but the songs are trash. Protestant trash. I grew up with them. I threw them out in the garbage.
They have no place in Catholic worship, just like Amazing Grace has no place in Catholic worship.
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TrueLight
Guest
Sorry, I said I was done, but I just looked at the video. Three things:
- There are some very good Protestant songs out there. MarMax, If you only listen to Catholic songs, you are depriving yourself of some beautiful worship songs.
- Having said that, I challenge someone to go to a church like Brooklyn Tabernacle or Times Square Church in NY and see if you don’t find the same type of worship as in this video… It’s a pentecostal style folks.
- Third, notice how the drums are used to incite feelings. Drums have a way of stirring us up because it sounds like our heartbeats and our bodies respond to it. They’re almost hypnotic.
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clem456
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Can you cite some theology here?
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MarMax
Guest
I only listen to Gregorian chant or polyphony unless it’s Classical, or secular stuff like oldies and old country. I have no need to contribute to an industry which pimps spirituality and love of Christ.
Yes, it is Pentecostal… not Catholic. Just like the man in the original video I posted said. Just like Pentecostalism is dangerous so is “Catholic” Charismatic fluff.
Yes, drums are used to incite us. We also see this in Indian music where, not surprisingly, demonic possession is also part and parcel of their religious practices as seen in the various cults-- just as in voodoo, etc.
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Mike30
Guest
It is certain to cause arguments That s why. That s all I can figure anyway They invariably end up badly and always have
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Faithdancer
Guest
I was thinking the same thing myself. Rather opposite, isn’t it?Is the Charismatic Renewal a traditional Catholic topic?
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Faithdancer
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Reading on in 1st Corinthians, Paul clearly indicates that speaking in tongues is of far less value than solid Christian teaching and preaching: “nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.” (1st Cor. 14: 19).
Christ never spoke in tongues- every phrase He uttered held deep theological or spiritual meaning, or was intended to instruct, to heal, or to uplift. And when He sent the Paraclete on Pentecost, the words uttered by the apostles speaking in tongues were clearly understandable to their listeners- no interpretation by the apostles was required and it was not a case of glossolalia. Somewhere between then and now, things have gotten a little bit fuzzy.
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Skye_Ariel
Guest
That’s how I understood it too, that the tongues they spoke back then were actual languages that different people could understand. Like someone who never learned to speak Russian suddenly speaking Russian and a Russian person understanding what they said. That’s what happened on the day of Pentecost.
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Ladybugred
Guest
“This type of worship isn’t for me but of it brings people to the Church then I’m fine with it”
I once went to a charismatic retreat and I felt really good. The part that I did not understand was the person indicated that she felt I had the gifts of tongues. Then started to try to teach me how to speak in tongues…I do not think that it is something taught, rather a gift from the holy spirit. That is where they lost me…
I once went to a charismatic retreat and I felt really good. The part that I did not understand was the person indicated that she felt I had the gifts of tongues. Then started to try to teach me how to speak in tongues…I do not think that it is something taught, rather a gift from the holy spirit. That is where they lost me…
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TrueLight
Guest
When we were in our early twenties, my two sisters and I went to visit a random church.
I don’t know what the denomination was but apparently, it considered itself to be “apostolic” in the sense that according to them, they followed the Bible exactly.
At the altar call, they asked if anyone believed and wanted to be baptized. To my dismay, my youngest sister ran up to the altar and said she wanted to be baptized.
She was baptized right there and then they whisked her up to the “upper room” to “await the gifts of the Holy Spirit”. My other sister and I were left in the sanctuary so we found a way to sneak upstairs.
We peeked into this room where there were about 20 people awaiting the “coming of the Holy Spirit”. There were people there trying to teach people to speak in tongues. I saw people crying and praying for the Spirit to come down. I saw a woman tell my sister, “Just say ‘ma ma masiya’, first slowly then faster and faster.”
Unbelievable.
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clem456
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Notice the words “can be”
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Seamus_L
Guest
Well since this is the Traditional forum, I’ll politely add, that as a Traditional Catholic I have no interest whatsoever in having any kind of involvement with Charismatic Renewal.
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Melchior_1
Guest
I seriously think that people get incredibly caught up in the tongues thing, to the exclusion of everything else.
I know traditional Catholics who attend the EF on Sundays, and attend charismatic prayer meetings during the week. There’s nothing mutually exclusive about them, one can be both.
I’m not going to comment on MarMax’s post(s) as it looks like he won’t be posting here for awhile, but I will say that the tone he was using seems to imply that charismatic Catholics are “less Catholic” than others. I would certainly hope that others do not share that belief.
I know traditional Catholics who attend the EF on Sundays, and attend charismatic prayer meetings during the week. There’s nothing mutually exclusive about them, one can be both.
I’m not going to comment on MarMax’s post(s) as it looks like he won’t be posting here for awhile, but I will say that the tone he was using seems to imply that charismatic Catholics are “less Catholic” than others. I would certainly hope that others do not share that belief.
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RogerDeCourcy
Guest
Well, in practical terms, having people doing glossolialia at mass or public gatherings would be very disturbing and an opportunity to show off for the less saintly or the deluded. So I think St. Paul was trying to exercise some quality control. In practice, if people don’t understand you, what use is it to the congregation?
There is also this aspect to be aware of: psychics and spiritualists giving interesting messages to a mainly female following. I do not know what charismatics do to screen out demonic influences. The trick, I think, is this: **you get told what you already know or they tell you true but trivial things. **
What they won’t tell you is something Godly which to your long-term spiritual benefit, unless it accomplishes a greater evil down the line.
An example: I read about a famous occultist who did an intense magical ceremony invoking ancient gods (devils) to get money. And it worked! He got a 20 pound postal order some time later. And he was well pleased!!
His devils moved him a bit further to damnation and mocked him at the same time.
Another occultist I read said something like this: “Spiritualism is like going out into the street and asking the first corner boy you meet to be your guru”.
Occultists use visualisation, ceremonies, prayers, instruments and symbols to keep devils from harming them. What do charismatics do? (assuming they are deliberately opening themselves up to a spirit).
There is also this aspect to be aware of: psychics and spiritualists giving interesting messages to a mainly female following. I do not know what charismatics do to screen out demonic influences. The trick, I think, is this: **you get told what you already know or they tell you true but trivial things. **
What they won’t tell you is something Godly which to your long-term spiritual benefit, unless it accomplishes a greater evil down the line.
An example: I read about a famous occultist who did an intense magical ceremony invoking ancient gods (devils) to get money. And it worked! He got a 20 pound postal order some time later. And he was well pleased!!
His devils moved him a bit further to damnation and mocked him at the same time.
Another occultist I read said something like this: “Spiritualism is like going out into the street and asking the first corner boy you meet to be your guru”.
Occultists use visualisation, ceremonies, prayers, instruments and symbols to keep devils from harming them. What do charismatics do? (assuming they are deliberately opening themselves up to a spirit).
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AdDeum
Guest
I’ll second this
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Melchior_1
Guest
This is entirely something new. I’ve been called a heretic for being involved in the charismatic renewal, but now apparently I’m an occultist.
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Sirach2
Guest
Some here are demeaning a lawful movement in the church due to extreme traditional biases and prejudices that expect everyone else to be a “hand.” Truth be told, feet belong as well, but have a different charism and function within the one Mystical Body than the hand, the eye, or other various parts.
Blessed Pope John Paul II wrote this beautiful encyclical explaining the lawful diversity of movements in the church and explained the worth of their charisms, primarily that they serve to build up the Body of Christ. Let us not forget that the Holy Spirit is their Author and bestows them as HE wills, subject of course, to proper authority.
24. The Holy Spirit, while bestowing diverse ministries in Church communion, enriches it still further with particular gifts or promptings of grace, called charisms. These can take a great variety of forms, both as a manifestation of the absolute freedom of the Spirit who abundantly supplies them, and as a response to the varied needs of the Church in history. [To expect the Spirit to confine His gifts only to the apostolic beginning of the Church is a serious error without foundation.]
The description and the classification given to these gifts in the New Testament are an indication of their rich variety. “To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues” [Again, a malformed opinion expects that all tongues require interpretation, and must be used in the same manner - not so.]
Whether they be exceptional and great or simple and ordinary, the charisms are *graces of the Holy Spirit that have, *directly or indirectly, *a usefulness for the ecclesial community, *ordered as they are to the building up of the Church, to the well-being of humanity and to the needs of the world.
To those who arrogantly oppose the CCR with comments that have no basis in truth, I challenge you to show that the church has condemned the movement. It is nonexistent, other than the condemnation you spew here at CAF that exists only in your own mind, painted with the selected scenarios to make it appear evil.
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