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Faithdancer
Guest
Exactly, Lee, this is hardly the sub-forum for discussions of Protestant-influenced practices within the Church. Perhaps if we keep reporting it, it will get moved to the appropriate forum, wherever that may be.
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Melchior_1
Guest
At it’s root, the CCR essentially is about placing an emphasis on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, and doing so through the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. This is something that has actually been around for 2000 years, isn’t? The “renewal” portion comes from the thought that this has always been there (it has), but people did not think about it as much or perhaps it was neglected.
Protestants are either missing all seven Sacraments, or some of them (some have Baptism, after all). In order to remain with Christ, there are some things they need to hold onto. Scripture is one, and one cannot discount their zeal for God’s Word (despite their errors in translating and interpreting). Their knowledge and zeal for Scripture is something we can emulate, yes? But that of course does not mean that the study of Scripture and having Bible studies and Bible study meetings are “Protestant influenced”, does it?
Of course not. The Bible is Catholic. But I certainly will say that there’s a rise in Bible studies and devotions with a rise in fundamentalist Christianity.
The other thing Protestants have? Zeal for the Holy Spirit, which is something that they probably need to have because of their incomplete version of the Truth. The Holy Spirit, like Scripture, is accessible to them and is something they can wrap their heads around. How they approach thing is a method we could have approached things ourselves, and in some pockets of the Catholic Church is how things were approached. Hymns, for example, are not as recent as some may think.
Basically, what I’m saying is that, like the study (and group study) of Scripture, devotion to the Holy Spirit and being receptive to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is very much Catholic, and the fact Protestants placed a large emphasis on both of these things does not make it a bad thing.
I don’t see how any of the above is incompatible with Catholicism, or with being a traditional Catholic.
Protestants are either missing all seven Sacraments, or some of them (some have Baptism, after all). In order to remain with Christ, there are some things they need to hold onto. Scripture is one, and one cannot discount their zeal for God’s Word (despite their errors in translating and interpreting). Their knowledge and zeal for Scripture is something we can emulate, yes? But that of course does not mean that the study of Scripture and having Bible studies and Bible study meetings are “Protestant influenced”, does it?
Of course not. The Bible is Catholic. But I certainly will say that there’s a rise in Bible studies and devotions with a rise in fundamentalist Christianity.
The other thing Protestants have? Zeal for the Holy Spirit, which is something that they probably need to have because of their incomplete version of the Truth. The Holy Spirit, like Scripture, is accessible to them and is something they can wrap their heads around. How they approach thing is a method we could have approached things ourselves, and in some pockets of the Catholic Church is how things were approached. Hymns, for example, are not as recent as some may think.
Basically, what I’m saying is that, like the study (and group study) of Scripture, devotion to the Holy Spirit and being receptive to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is very much Catholic, and the fact Protestants placed a large emphasis on both of these things does not make it a bad thing.
I don’t see how any of the above is incompatible with Catholicism, or with being a traditional Catholic.
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LeeGrizz
Guest
From the 1962 Missal:
The Seven Gifts of the Holy Ghost:
Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, and the Fear of the Lord
The Twelve Fruits of the Holy Ghost:
Charity, Joy, Peace, Patience, Longanimity, Goodness, Benignity, Mildness, Fidelity, Modesty, Continence, and Chastity.
Don’t see act like a foolish Pentecostal anywhere in there.
What concord hath Christ with Belial? Should we bring in some head-mics and a cool light show as well? I mean, it really sets the stage… err, I mean, sanctuary…
I find it amazing that all this suddenly comes about just as Catholics, upset with not having Mass being entertaining enough, adopt Protestant/Pentecostal practices during the Jesus Movement of the late 60’s and into the 70’s.
The question begins to be begged-- what’s really the difference? Sacraments? OK. But everything else is totally not Catholic, but Pentecostal. Why not throw some dancers in the mix, maybe with a conga line or running around the church shouting in jibberish? Seen that before. Wasn’t cool. Scary actually.
Is God the God of Chaos? Confusion? Lack of Interpretation?
I’ve “prayed” in tongues before… in reality, I was just making myself speak in jibberish because I wanted to. Kinda like how some people might start eating the same food as someone they have a crush on or something. I’ve never seen, even in the Pentecostal churches, true tongues. Never. It was either totally in the person’s head or it was probably demonic.
There is NOT ANY biblical basis for the tongues we see in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. This is not the tongues of the Bible.
Please, tell me where acting a fool is in the list of 7 or 12. Maybe the sub-term is hidden because I’m not seeing in the Spirit or something.
Let me put it this way: when the only aesthetic difference between the lunatics in Times Square Church and Catholics is nothing, something is wrong.
The Seven Gifts of the Holy Ghost:
Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, and the Fear of the Lord
The Twelve Fruits of the Holy Ghost:
Charity, Joy, Peace, Patience, Longanimity, Goodness, Benignity, Mildness, Fidelity, Modesty, Continence, and Chastity.
Don’t see act like a foolish Pentecostal anywhere in there.
What concord hath Christ with Belial? Should we bring in some head-mics and a cool light show as well? I mean, it really sets the stage… err, I mean, sanctuary…
I find it amazing that all this suddenly comes about just as Catholics, upset with not having Mass being entertaining enough, adopt Protestant/Pentecostal practices during the Jesus Movement of the late 60’s and into the 70’s.
The question begins to be begged-- what’s really the difference? Sacraments? OK. But everything else is totally not Catholic, but Pentecostal. Why not throw some dancers in the mix, maybe with a conga line or running around the church shouting in jibberish? Seen that before. Wasn’t cool. Scary actually.
Is God the God of Chaos? Confusion? Lack of Interpretation?
I’ve “prayed” in tongues before… in reality, I was just making myself speak in jibberish because I wanted to. Kinda like how some people might start eating the same food as someone they have a crush on or something. I’ve never seen, even in the Pentecostal churches, true tongues. Never. It was either totally in the person’s head or it was probably demonic.
There is NOT ANY biblical basis for the tongues we see in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. This is not the tongues of the Bible.
Please, tell me where acting a fool is in the list of 7 or 12. Maybe the sub-term is hidden because I’m not seeing in the Spirit or something.
Let me put it this way: when the only aesthetic difference between the lunatics in Times Square Church and Catholics is nothing, something is wrong.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Again, tongues. Again, not seeing why you and others feel the need to stress on it so.
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are spoken about by Paul, they’re right in the Bible.
"What concord hath Christ with Belial? Should we bring in some head-mics and a cool light show as well? I mean, it really sets the stage… err, I mean, sanctuary… "
Sorry, are you equating charismatic Catholics as heathens?
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LeeGrizz
Guest
Because tongues like we see in the Pentecostal movement is not really tongues. It’s, at best, trying really hard and at worse demonic.
No, but if they insist on adopting heathen practices, or Pentecostal as it were–a satanic group masquerading as Christians-- then, well,* what concord…*
Don’t wear saggy pants if you don’t wanna be addressed like a gangbanger. Don’t act like a Protestant if you don’t want to be called one.
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Melchior_1
Guest
I see. So you’ve known me for what, one afternoon and you’ve summarily decided to group me with Protestants and heathens? Without knowing at all how I practice my faith?
Fascinating.
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LeeGrizz
Guest
I’m talking of the movement overall. That you insist on personalizing it is unfortunate.
Facts: this movement didn’t exist before it existed in Protestant circles; it was adopted by Catholics who totally break with worship style; it is focused on seeking gifts which are not gifts, having never been gifts-- God does not influence people to jabber; there is nothing in Catholic history to serve as a way to understand this, having come from Pentecostal circles, adopting Pentecostal modes of worship including songs, and in fact, it’s just Sacramental Pentecostalism.
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Sirach2
Guest
Counting … 10, 9, 8, 7 …
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Melchior_1
Guest
Facts: Elements of this movement have been around for some time. As far as Catholic history goes, look at the lives of several Catholics who have received gifts resembling those that Paul speaks of.
More Facts: You paint an entire movement with a wide brush and then say “oh, I never got any paint on you!” isn’t exactly forthcoming nor intellectually honest.
That happens a lot, actually.
“This movement is terrible!”
“I’m in this movement”
“Well, I’m talking about the movement and not you!”
Sigh.
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LeeGrizz
Guest
Is your example exactly what is expected and done when talking about false religions?
The movement itself, and all those not-Catholic things attached to it, is straight up Pentecostalism. Injecting the truth of the Sacraments into the error of Protestants does not Catholicism make.
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Melchior_1
Guest
You didn’t read my post from above, did you? I directly talked about some of what you’re saying.
Most elements of the CCR have been around for awhile, much more than thirty or forty years. The people who continually say “it comes from Protestantism” usually have a kneejerk and reflexive dislike of the movement.
At the end of the day, there’s two things you can get from Protestantism; truth and heresy. The leaders of the Church have spoken highly of the CCR, which means that if the CCR truly came from Protestantism, you’re saying that either the Magisteruim is supporting truth or lies. Based on your posts, you’re basically saying that the Magisteruim endorses and support lies.
Unless the CCR is Catholic and stems from Catholicism, like I was saying in my above post.
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JReducation
Guest
Common’ folks. This is the silliest conversation on the Internet and the Internet is pretty big. The Catholic Charismatic Movement is Catholic, because it is approved by the Holy See. Canonically, it has a legal right to call itself Catholic. It even has an office in the Holy See and so do the Traditionalists. Both sides should stop complaining, because the Holy See is being fair to both. The Charismatics have a department for them and the traditionalists have the Ecclesia Dei Commission.
Secondly, are there individuals in the Catholic Charismatic Movement who are strongly influenced by Protestantism? Of course there are. Does that make the movement Protestant? No more than having Augustinian roots makes Lutheranism Catholic. There are always crossovers and not always bad either.
One of the things that the Catholic Church has recently said that it admires about the Evangelical Protestants is their love for Scripture. OK, they don’t always interpret it correctly. But more Evangelicals than Catholics read their bibles. Many Catholics, who had never opened a bible, started to do so when they experienced the Charismatic Movement.
Is the theology of the Charismatic Movement incorrect? No it’s not. There can be differences in theology and both be very correct. This exists in the Catholic Church today. There are different theological positions on purgatory between Roman Catholics and all other Catholics. The Holy See says that both sides are correct. There is a difference in the definition of grace between the Jesuit school of theology and the Dominican school of theology. The Holy See says that both sides are correct and threatened to excommunicate anyone who said that either side was a heretic. There is a difference in theology between Aquinas and Bonaventure on the priesthood and the Eucharist. The Church says that both men are correct. In other words, not every theological difference has to be a cause for a debate or a division.
Are there great truths in Protestantism? There better be, since the first Protestants were Catholic. They must have kept some of the things they took with them. Not everything in Protestantism is heresy.
Is there heresy in Protestantism? Duhhhh, there would not have been excommunications and executions if there were none.
Have we Catholics always dealt well with differences? Noooooooooooo. Just look at the attitudes that Roman Catholics have toward Eastern Catholics. Many Roman Catholics treat them like foster children, even though they were Catholic when the Irish and French were still running around in bear skins and loin cloths.
Is anyone obliged to participate in the Charismatic Movement? NO
So . . . the best thing to do is for those who do not want to participate, not to do so and to keep their opinions to themselves, because the Charismatics are no doing any harm to them.
It is equally good for the Charismatics to tone it down when they’re outside of their group, because it is overbearing and an over kill to have someone saying “Praise the Lord” or “Praise you Jesus” every five minutes. Actually, it gets annoying. Even monks and friars don’t do that. We have five times a day for praise. We do it on cue and on schedule and where more people don’t see or hear us.
I truly fail to see the benefit to the Church to have a standoff between Charismatic Catholics and Traditionalist Catholics. In his first letter, St. Peter reminds us not to let criticisms and negativity cross our lips. He wrote this for a reason. The people whom he shepherded were doing this exact same thing. Don’t think that the Epistles were written on whim. They were in response to real situations. There were camps in the Church during the time of the Apostles and Peter and Paul had to tell people to knock it off. You don’t belong to Peter or to Paul. You don’t let a bad thought about your neighbor cross past your lips to the ears of another. And you mind your own business and work on your salvation.
No one is damned to hell through the actions of another. That’s horrible theology. Man has freedom. If he is dammed to hell, it is because of his choices, not those of someone else. This nonsense of this one or that group are leading souls to hell is just that, nonsense. People who go to hell choose to go there. People who make poor choices, very innocently, are not culpable, because there was no malice intended.
Let Catholics praise God in tongues, in Latin or in Swahili. As long as they praise God, God is happy.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Secondly, are there individuals in the Catholic Charismatic Movement who are strongly influenced by Protestantism? Of course there are. Does that make the movement Protestant? No more than having Augustinian roots makes Lutheranism Catholic. There are always crossovers and not always bad either.
One of the things that the Catholic Church has recently said that it admires about the Evangelical Protestants is their love for Scripture. OK, they don’t always interpret it correctly. But more Evangelicals than Catholics read their bibles. Many Catholics, who had never opened a bible, started to do so when they experienced the Charismatic Movement.
Is the theology of the Charismatic Movement incorrect? No it’s not. There can be differences in theology and both be very correct. This exists in the Catholic Church today. There are different theological positions on purgatory between Roman Catholics and all other Catholics. The Holy See says that both sides are correct. There is a difference in the definition of grace between the Jesuit school of theology and the Dominican school of theology. The Holy See says that both sides are correct and threatened to excommunicate anyone who said that either side was a heretic. There is a difference in theology between Aquinas and Bonaventure on the priesthood and the Eucharist. The Church says that both men are correct. In other words, not every theological difference has to be a cause for a debate or a division.
Are there great truths in Protestantism? There better be, since the first Protestants were Catholic. They must have kept some of the things they took with them. Not everything in Protestantism is heresy.
Is there heresy in Protestantism? Duhhhh, there would not have been excommunications and executions if there were none.
Have we Catholics always dealt well with differences? Noooooooooooo. Just look at the attitudes that Roman Catholics have toward Eastern Catholics. Many Roman Catholics treat them like foster children, even though they were Catholic when the Irish and French were still running around in bear skins and loin cloths.
Is anyone obliged to participate in the Charismatic Movement? NO
So . . . the best thing to do is for those who do not want to participate, not to do so and to keep their opinions to themselves, because the Charismatics are no doing any harm to them.
It is equally good for the Charismatics to tone it down when they’re outside of their group, because it is overbearing and an over kill to have someone saying “Praise the Lord” or “Praise you Jesus” every five minutes. Actually, it gets annoying. Even monks and friars don’t do that. We have five times a day for praise. We do it on cue and on schedule and where more people don’t see or hear us.
I truly fail to see the benefit to the Church to have a standoff between Charismatic Catholics and Traditionalist Catholics. In his first letter, St. Peter reminds us not to let criticisms and negativity cross our lips. He wrote this for a reason. The people whom he shepherded were doing this exact same thing. Don’t think that the Epistles were written on whim. They were in response to real situations. There were camps in the Church during the time of the Apostles and Peter and Paul had to tell people to knock it off. You don’t belong to Peter or to Paul. You don’t let a bad thought about your neighbor cross past your lips to the ears of another. And you mind your own business and work on your salvation.
No one is damned to hell through the actions of another. That’s horrible theology. Man has freedom. If he is dammed to hell, it is because of his choices, not those of someone else. This nonsense of this one or that group are leading souls to hell is just that, nonsense. People who go to hell choose to go there. People who make poor choices, very innocently, are not culpable, because there was no malice intended.
Let Catholics praise God in tongues, in Latin or in Swahili. As long as they praise God, God is happy.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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Thomas_Casey
Guest
Question answered.
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