Charismatic Retreats? My First Experience

[almightyservant]

I do not consider myself a hardcore traditional Catholic, but there’s something that disturbs me about the charismatic movement within the Catholic community. My brother & his wife are so into the charismatic retreats and activities, they’ve been trying to get my wife and I to go. They say it’s changed them in a good way. They’ve bugged me so many times. I’ve had doubts about how being part of this movement will benefit us (my wife and I), and believe that there is nothing there for me. To prove that, I accepted their invitation and checked it out this weekend. It was a three day event. I checked out after the first day, and was left feeling confused, disgusted, and sick.

The so called retreat took place in a toasty hot school gym of a Catholic school. When I entered the gym, there was a line to sign in. When I got through signing in, I could see beyond the people in line and see seats filled halfway with people scattered about in the gym. The people were mainly talking in casual tones. It was like any group get-together. Looking further, I notice an altar and a monstrance on top. I spot my brother and approach him, and asked if the Holy Eucharist is present? He says yes. Feeling confused because of my environment, I genuflect to the Lord anyways. I wonder to myself, “Why is no body greeting our Lord? Does no one else see our King?” During this time I prayed silently to Him.

Perhaps 15 minutes passed before the intro to the retreat began. When it did we were told by a priest that led the retreat about praying in a different way. We’re told to lift up our hands and arms and let the Holy Spirit move us. That some of us should expect to feel the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.

The retreat for that day was mostly singing. Almost everyone was singing with arms out. Some appeared to almost be dancing or swaying including the priest. The Blessed Sacrament present during the whole time. Some people were supposedly speaking in tongues. I hear several people, and it sounded like constant & rapid, “Blip, blip, blip, blip, blip!” The priest who was leading was singing something that sounded like some sort of middle eastern language. It sounded all creepy to me.

Towards the end of the retreat, there was an activity where we go up and hold/embrace the crucifix and talk to our Lord. Many people passed out and this was attributed to the Holy Spirit.

Before the conclusion of the day, there’s confession. My wife received the sacrament, but a strange this is that the priest blows his breath on her several times.

The retreat that day concluded with Mass. During the Mass again, there was a lot of singing and arms outstretched. During the part where the priest says repeats the words of our Lord, “This is my Body/Blood. Do this in memory of me”, the priest that leads the retreat standing nearby starts “speaking in tongues.” Again it freaks me out, distracts me and is annoying.

So what I want to know is what are your opinions about this. Was there any sacramental and liturgical abuse?

 

[dashso40]

Sounds to me like sacramental abuse…I’m never going to any charismatic activities or retreats, thanks for the warning…

 

[Tietjen]

Sounds to me like sacramental abuse…I’m never going to any charismatic activities or retreats, thanks for the warning…

I second dashso40’s opinion and decision. THAT “activity” is not for me either.

 

[almightyservant]

Let me add that there was a few times of kneeling and instruction to give our attention to the Blessed Sacrament in the monstrance, but shouldn’t our attention be there the whole time? Even so I do not see that attention was given much to the Blessed Sacrament. I guess it could be argued that it the attention was there, but I just could not see it with all the other distracting action going on (e.g. the “Lift up your arms to God!”, the dancing, the annoying sounds of people speaking supposedly in tongues.)

As for the dancing the charismatic music, the priest leading the retreat gave reference to King David from 2 Samuel 6. He referred to how King David danced and sang with joy before the ark of God.

I’m brushing up on my scripture and faith so I’ll ask this. Wasn’t the ark of God containing the “tables of the Law”? I see this be completely different from the Eucharist or the living Word, the Law. In context, the Eucharist is the result of the ultimate sacrifice. Dancing and singing before the Body and Blood of our Lord as King David did before the ark of God still doesn’t seem appropriate to me.

Let me also add that on the last day (I came to pick up my wife as I decided not to participate further.), I witnessed what appeard to be adoration of our Lord. I knelt with everyone else, but then I noticed something peculiar moving behind the monstrance where our Lord was. Then I realized it was the priest leading the activity. He was kneeling there behind our Lord, and I could barely see his head and outstretched arms. He was swaying there, and I found that distracting. To know what he looked like. Try kneeling down in front of a mirror with arms outstretched like our Lord on the Cross and sway. It looks sort of like you’re “tutting” like Egyptian from the cartoons, & I’m not trying to joke about this.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

I will allow this thread to remain only if there is no denigrating of persons or lack of charity in responding to one another. Thank you all.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

HI,

Charismatic style worship is an authentic movement of the Catholic Church, and should be treated with respect, regardless of a personal preference.

Most of the abuses mentioned in these threads are not the norm. Basically it is the music that is different, so if someone does not like this enthusiastic high praise, they would do better to avoid it, but certainly not condemn it or those who prefer to worship in this manner.

Lux

 

[RosaryCrusader]

A note about the so called dancing of King David… this reference is continuously brought up by not only charismatics but also for justification for “liturgical dance” which has been righly condemned by the Church. The problem with this reference is that it was a single isolated event prompted by great joy outside of the temple. This was never incorporated into the rituals of Jewish sacrifice nor was it ever “performed” in the Holy of Holies nor anywhere in the Temple.

 

[FrDavid96]

A note about the so called dancing of King David… this reference is continuously brought up by not only charismatics but also for justification for “liturgical dance” which has been righly condemned by the Church. The problem with this reference is that it was a single isolated event prompted by great joy outside of the temple. This was never incorporated into the rituals of Jewish sacrifice nor was it ever “performed” in the Holy of Holies nor anywhere in the Temple.

And by the way, how many wives and concubines did King David have?

 

[RosaryCrusader]

And by the way, how many wives and concubines did King David have?

Right, Father… reason enough to not follow suit.

 

[FrDavid96]

HI,

Charismatic style worship is an authentic movement of the Catholic Church, and should be treated with respect, regardless of a personal preference.

Most of the abuses mentioned in these threads are not the norm. Basically it is the music that is different, so if someone does not like this enthusiastic high praise, they would do better to avoid it, but certainly not condemn it or those who prefer to worship in this manner.

Lux

That’s what troubles me about the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. People are constantly telling me that what I see (either personally or indirectly) this movement doing is “not the norm.”

If “the norm” is out there somewhere, I have yet to find it (and my experience with this movement has been quite extensive, geographically speaking, throughout the US). Granted, the various bodies within the movement often say that they follow the Mass and other liturgical rites of the Church faithfully; but in my own extensive experience, what we see in writing and what we actually experience happening are usually at-odds.

 

[Spirithound]

The retreat for that day was mostly singing. Almost everyone was singing with arms out. Some appeared to almost be dancing or swaying including the priest. The Blessed Sacrament present during the whole time. Some people were supposedly speaking in tongues. I hear several people, and it sounded like constant & rapid, “Blip, blip, blip, blip, blip!” The priest who was leading was singing something that sounded like some sort of middle eastern language. It sounded all creepy to me.

Towards the end of the retreat, there was an activity where we go up and hold/embrace the crucifix and talk to our Lord. Many people passed out and this was attributed to the Holy Spirit.

Before the conclusion of the day, there’s confession. My wife received the sacrament, but a strange this is that the priest blows his breath on her several times.

The retreat that day concluded with Mass. During the Mass again, there was a lot of singing and arms outstretched. During the part where the priest says repeats the words of our Lord, “This is my Body/Blood. Do this in memory of me”, the priest that leads the retreat standing nearby starts “speaking in tongues.” Again it freaks me out, distracts me and is annoying.

Let me add that there was a few times of kneeling and instruction to give our attention to the Blessed Sacrament in the monstrance, but shouldn’t our attention be there the whole time? Even so I do not see that attention was given much to the Blessed Sacrament. I guess it could be argued that it the attention was there, but I just could not see it with all the other distracting action going on (e.g. the “Lift up your arms to God!”, the dancing, the annoying sounds of people speaking supposedly in tongues.)

Let me also add that on the last day (I came to pick up my wife as I decided not to participate further.), I witnessed what appeard to be adoration of our Lord. I knelt with everyone else, but then I noticed something peculiar moving behind the monstrance where our Lord was. Then I realized it was the priest leading the activity. He was kneeling there behind our Lord, and I could barely see his head and outstretched arms. He was swaying there, and I found that distracting. To know what he looked like. Try kneeling down in front of a mirror with arms outstretched like our Lord on the Cross and sway. It looks sort of like you’re “tutting” like Egyptian from the cartoons, & I’m not trying to joke about this.

The charismatic movement is certainly not for everyone. I am glad that you were open to trying it, and I and very glad you remain committed to our Holy Church. I hope that you will talk with your brother about this, and ask him not to pressure you to go again.

I think it is unfortunate that the Blessed Sacrament was already exposed before the retreat started. That time really could be a mingling time.

So, charismatic prayer is praying in a different way, and the priest was letting y’all know what kind of things were acceptable. Experimentation is fine. But I have to disagree with the priest, in that no one should expect to receive the gift of tongues. Quite simply, it’s the lowest of the gifts. One thing I pray for is an increase of the virtues.

The priest speaking in tongues during the Consecration sounds iffy to me. Maybe he was saying it in Aramaic though.

I would encourage you not to be too hard on them about the format of the retreat. Not many people have the stamina for Eucharistic Adoration for hours on end. Teaching and singing is also allowed. It might not have been O Salutaris, Tantum Ergo, and Holy God we Praise Thy Name, but it is praise.

One last thing, the priest wasn’t behind our Lord. In the Blessed Sacrament, all are simply in the Presence of Jesus.

Again, you have discerned that this style of prayer is not for you, and that’s ok.

Peace

 

[zab]

That’s what troubles me about the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. People are constantly telling me that what I see (either personally or indirectly) this movement doing is “not the norm.”

If “the norm” is out there somewhere, I have yet to find it (and my experience with this movement has been quite extensive, geographically speaking, throughout the US). Granted, the various bodies within the movement often say that they follow the Mass and other liturgical rites of the Church faithfully; but in my own extensive experience, what we see in writing and what we actually experience happening are usually at-odds.

I have very minimal experience and was uncomfortable with it. Being that you have extensive experience, what were some of the things that you actually experienced that were at-odds?

 

[almightyservant]

What I’ve given above is my first account which I experienced this past weekend. I was really troubled, but at the same time I want to understand this type of worship/lifestyle. If it is really good as what some of my relatives say it is and what I’ve read from posts from a thread (that was recently closed and removed due to people fighting), then I really want to know. If it is something that could bring me closer to our Lord, I want to know.

But after researching and reading a few things including this piece by Colin B. Donovan, and this by Rev. William G. Most, I am still not convinced. It looks to me as though this movement is like a double edged sword, only that the blade facing the wielder is more dangerous. I mean, there doesn’t seem to be any official authority that guides closely the charismatic movement. How am I to know if someone is pretending to speak in tongues or not? Am I to ignore them then, because they are not recognised by the magisterium? How do I ignore the sounds or the “speaking in tongues” if they are so loud. Does this not detract from the mass when this occurs?

God cannot be kept in a box as some say, but we humans need order. Also, I understand that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, but would the Holy Spirit really direct my attention away from the Blessed Sacrament to people around me who are supposedly speaking in tongues? I think that if people were truly speaking in tongues, somehow I would feel in more union with God and focus on the Lord present in the Blessed Sacrament, but I don’t know anything.

Unlike the thread that is closed/removed, I hope we can maintain charitable and healthy discussion so that I and others may come to some better understanding.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

That’s what troubles me about the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. People are constantly telling me that what I see (either personally or indirectly) this movement doing is “not the norm.”

If “the norm” is out there somewhere, I have yet to find it (and my experience with this movement has been quite extensive, geographically speaking, throughout the US). Granted, the various bodies within the movement often say that they follow the Mass and other liturgical rites of the Church faithfully; but in my own extensive experience, what we see in writing and what we actually experience happening are usually at-odds.

Hi Fr David,

There have been many approved celebrations, in many areas. If you have never attended, or you personally dislike this style of worship, it is still approved. You cannot judge the whole movement by irregularities, any more than you can judge the NO Mass by the irregularities there.

The “norm” is an authentic Mass with enthusiastic high praise at the music times. An authentic "healing " Mass is a regular Mass with a healing service after Mass is concluded (as is perscribed in the document). Some call a Mass where the sacramental anointing is included at a prescribed time, a healing Mass, but this is different from Charismatic style prayers for healing.

If this is not your preference, it is easy to avoid, but we must all be respectful of this authentic worship. Have you ever seen or heard Fr Cantalamessa, the household preacher to both popes JP II & BXVI?

Peace to you,
Lux

 

[Spirithound]

If it is really good as what some of my relatives say it is and what I’ve read from posts from a thread, then I really want to know. If it is something that could bring me closer to our Lord, I want to know.

How am I to know if someone is pretending to speak in tongues or not? Am I to ignore them then, because they are not recognised by the magisterium? How do I ignore the sounds or the “speaking in tongues” if they are so loud. Does this not detract from the mass when this occurs?

God cannot be kept in a box as some say, but we humans need order. Also, I understand that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, but would the Holy Spirit really direct my attention away from the Blessed Sacrament to people around me who are supposedly speaking in tongues? I think that if people were truly speaking in tongues, somehow I would feel in more union with God and focus on the Lord present in the Blessed Sacrament, but I don’t know anything.

I would like to address some of your specific questions.
How do you know if someone is truly speaking in tongues? Completely honestly, you don’t. Read 1Cor14, St. Paul addresses the gift of tongues. “2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.” and “5b He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.” So, the gift of tongues is only for the edification of the person who has that gift, unless there is someone who can interpret. In other words, yes, ignore them. I really can’t say how to ignore, other than you may get used to hearing it. This shouldn’t be going on during Mass anyways. The rubrics for Mass are well laid-out and it doesn’t include charismatic gifts like tongues, interpretation, or dancing.

I would caution against relying completely on feelings. The gift of tongues is Biblical, but I can’t say whether those people actually had the gift, and a certainly can’t say whether they were really being disruptive with it (whether ‘it’ is the gift or not). Feelings are often how God communicates with us, and so maybe the charismatic style isn’t for you.

Peace

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi again,

Tongues is definitely the most controversial of the Charismatic gifts.

The Tongues of the first pentecost is slightly different from the more common “praying” in tongues, which is the simpler Charismatic style heard so often in prayer groups and during healing services. I have also heard a prayer tongue at the time after Holy Communion or at the Consecration. It is not up to me to decide if this is allowed, but it is a spontaneous praise prayer, no different than some of the short ejaculations I hear some people pray during Mass.

The scriptural validation for praying in tingues is

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.

There is rarely any interpretation for a prayer tongue—it is more like what humming is to singing.

Lux

 

[almightyservant]

Thanks to everyone for the charitable replies.

Spirithound, I wanted to reply to this:

Spirithound:

One last thing, the priest wasn’t behind our Lord. In the Blessed Sacrament, all are simply in the Presence of Jesus.

The point I was making that during adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, the position and movements of the priest relative to us and the Blessed Sacrament seems to easily takes away our attention to our Lord. In such a case, is that inappropriate or am I interpreting all this incorrectly?

-Martin

 

[Spirithound]

Thanks to everyone for the charitable replies.

Spirithound, I wanted to reply to this: The point I was making that during adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, the position and movements of the priest relative to us and the Blessed Sacrament seems to easily takes away our attention to our Lord. In such a case, is that inappropriate or am I interpreting all this incorrectly?

-Martin

Ah, I get your meaning now. So, my answer is kinda…both… It’s not inherently inappropriate for the priest to be there and adoring in his way, but it is also not a good thing to be distracting others. On the part of the laity, people who are familiar with, and identify with this style of worship kind of know what to expect, and since they identify with it, they are not disturbed or distracted by it. That’s really the heart of the matter. There are many traditions and practices and prayers within the Catholic Church, and most people don’t get into worshipping in all of them.
Peace and blessings

 

[almightyservant]

I see. So my experience likely would have been better if there were better preparation on my part and the organisers of the retreat.

Still, I think there were methods in which things should not have been done. In the end, you may be right though, that this type of worship is not for me. If I saw more order in the activities, I would be more accepting.

 

[sweetnay]

I was raised in a Charismatic Parish and the only time ppl worshiped in tongues/raised their hands toward God was during the songs. There certainly weren’t any ejaculations during odd times and I find it a bit strange that the priest from your retreat would be doing anything other than adoring w the Blessed Sacrament exposed. This Charismatic Parish is thriving and has the most vocations in the State–NOT bragging but I think it shows that a Charismatic style worship can be appropriately integrated in the Mass and the fruits of the Spirit are obviously at work here.
The Bishop protected this Parish against many naysayers, and continues to–you would be hard pressed to find a pro-abort/cafeteria Catholic here!