She. And thanks, it was all getting kind of overwhelming.OP’s question was whether or not the Catholic Charistmatic Renewal is an accepted orthodox spirituality within the Church and enjoys its approval. The answer is yes. If the question had been “what is your personal experience or opinion” those replies would be acceptable. We already have an abundance of acrimonious, uninformed threads giving those rants, don’t need another, OP can do a search on charismatic if he wants a load of bitterness and ignorance.
Someone that was invited to your school shouldn’t go there and bash the religion it is founded on. That was very wrong.
I do not believe in speaking in tongues (at least not to mean the babbling that pentecostals do), I believe in the Holy Spirit, but I don’t have to do many of the things Charismatics do when they experience Him. Charismatic Catholicism does not impress me mainly because it seems to consider centuries of Catholic traditions irrelevant even though they have helped to form the faith of countless saints.
The article you are citing is full of errors. The authentic charismatic renewal is not based on feelings an emotionalism, but on the scripture, church teaching, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in prayer. It is true that it does fill a gap for many Catholics that are seeking a more emotional expression of faith, but it is based not in that, but the experiences of the early church as noted in the book of Acts.Based on feelings, emotionalism and experience, Baptism in the Spirit and the Outpouring of the Spirit stand at the core of Charismaticism, by which spirit empowerment is achieved. It has recently been called an “unleashing of the spirit” and is considered to be a manifestation that the individual has received the Baptism in the Spirit.
This is just a load of horse hockey. Charismatics no where maintain such thinking or teaching.What does this mean? It means the overcoming of all psycho-social inhibitions and barriers which protect the individual from unacceptable social and immoral behavior. Charismatics maintain that spirit empowerment results in the elimination of rigidity and inhibitions that can stifle spiritual energies.
It sounds to me like the writer is afraid that, if they yield to the movement of the Holyl Spirit within themselves, they will lose control!Consequently, the line of defense against our deep inner impulses to act out is weakened. The liberation of physic resources from within the unconscious into the consciousness of the individual is not well-known and can have traumatic effects on the person’s psyche, on his personality and on interpersonal group dynamics which are operable in Charismatic prayer meetings.
A charismatic Catholic would not disagree with this. continuedCode:Built-in psycho-social inhibitions are healthy and necessary, and by preventing an individual from acting out, it helps him not to sin. The normal person discerns the line beyond which actions become morally unacceptable, either internally or externally. To the degree that psychological restraints are weakened, to that degree are the passions excited.
I see that the writer is not only afraid of losing self control,b ut also is afraid of becoming invaded by demons. It is true that thter have been occurances of diabolical manifestations at Charismatic prayer meetings, and they are alarming. If anyone doubts the reality of Satan and demonic influence, one needs to go back and read their bible. If anyone doubts the empowerment of the believer by the Holy Spirit to take authority over them, they must also return to that bible.Before enslaving men, Satan first frees them from their psychological complexes and then liberates them from all psychological restraints to bring them under his yoke. Liberation and empowerment open the door for Satan to enter. It is known that at Charismatic prayer meetings there have been occurrences of diabolic manifestations which have alarmed both leaders and participants.
More horse hocky from the frightened! Jesus came to set us free, and when he sets us free, we are free indeed. Liberation does not foster self-reliance and pride. Failure to recognize Jesus as the source of the liberation will. Jesus told his disciples to wait for the HOly Spirit, from whom they would receive power. Jesus is the source of that power, and recognition of this is the foundation of humility. Sounds like the writer is also afraid of losing mental health!Code:Liberation and empowerment, of which the Charismatic man boasts, are contrary to the virtue of humility, because they foster a sense of self-reliance and pride. On the contrary, liberation and empowerment do not strengthen faith; rather we see it as a sort of psychic drug that eventually will cause the degradation of the faith and the mental well-being of individuals.
This is really a slap in the face of Jesus. Anyone who thinks that the Spirit of Jesus would place someone at spiritual and psychological risk is denying Jesus. To say that the Spirit that He died to give us would impair judgement is like nailing him to the cross all over again. How sad!Code:Furthermore, the so-called Baptism of the Spirit and the empowerment that accompanies it place the individual at a spiritual and psychological risk, because he then becomes vulnerable to both internal and external suggestions. His sense of judgment is impaired, and consequently he is rendered unable to distinguish wheat from chaff, light from heat, and the authentic from the counterfeit.
No, thanks, I have had MORE than ENOUGH!read more of this article here:
ourworld.compuserve.com/HOMEPAGES/REMNANT/slain.htm
christianorder.com/features/features_2000/features_feb00.html
i can’t offer a personal opinion because i just don’t knowI see that the writer is not only afraid of losing self control,b ut also is afraid of becoming invaded by demons. It is true that thter have been occurances of diabolical manifestations at Charismatic prayer meetings, and they are alarming. If anyone doubts the reality of Satan and demonic influence, one needs to go back and read their bible. If anyone doubts the empowerment of the believer by the Holy Spirit to take authority over them, they must also return to that bible.
More horse hocky from the frightened! Jesus came to set us free, and when he sets us free, we are free indeed. Liberation does not foster self-reliance and pride. Failure to recognize Jesus as the source of the liberation will. Jesus told his disciples to wait for the HOly Spirit, from whom they would receive power. Jesus is the source of that power, and recognition of this is the foundation of humility. Sounds like the writer is also afraid of losing mental health!
This is really a slap in the face of Jesus. Anyone who thinks that the Spirit of Jesus would place someone at spiritual and psychological risk is denying Jesus. To say that the Spirit that He died to give us would impair judgement is like nailing him to the cross all over again. How sad!
No, thanks, I have had MORE than ENOUGH!
The best place to start reading about this is in the second chapter of Acts and inI Cor. 12. I can also recommend the following links:She. And thanks, it was all getting kind of overwhelming.
My question regarding charismatic gifts in general is, if they are truly of God, what are the qualifications for getting them? I mean, some congregations will never ever get even a glimpse of spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues and healing and being slain. Other congregations are loaded with them. Is it just a question of belief? Do you have to believe to get them? Or does God truly work by congregational boundaries?
I apologize if I was too harsh. Perhaps my experience is lopsided. I know many very traditional Catholics that are in the renewal, and have had a completely different experience. I think it is just a matter of different strokes for different folks.i can’t offer a personal opinion because i just don’t know
enough of this topic.
you asked what Traditional Catholics think and those articles came from Traditional Catholic writers. so there are some examples of what some Tradionalists think.
Gladly!Can you elaborate on the criticisms and excuses or provide a link?
I have never heard of people barking like dogs during worship…
This is an awfully broad sweeping and prejudicial statement. 25 years in various protestant charismatic communities never exposed me to any “money making and taking advantage”.Well in protestant circles the Charismatic movment is about making money and taking advantage of people.
Now in Catholic context I don’t think that would be the case there just isn’t the same potential for abuse there. So on the up side I think that Catholic Charismatics are sincere. What I don’t get about the movement is “why”? I guess I just don’t see the purpose of it.
I think it is really a matter of individual need and spirituality. I was very attentive to the Pope’s visit to Turkey. I listened to all the services on EWTN. The Eastern (Persian?) chanting really got on my nerves. I know the parts of the Mass were the same, but I did not enjoy it. Later, I attended a Greek Orthodox Mass, which I enjoyed very much. It is not that one is wrong and the other right, or one “necessary” and the other not. They just have a different character and spirituality. I think it is not different from some people being called to a contempletive type of prayer, and others a more active.Why do you say that the same potential for abuse is not there? What is the potential for abuse?
So let me get this striaght… Critizes the Charismatic movement = critizing God and not reading the Bible.Greetings to all in the Lord! I am a charismatic catholic and I say…
and I say whoa…! I can say this for sure…the remarks that are made here or I should say most of them, show me that scripture is something most beleivers dont know very well. Read act chapt 1thru 4 actually read all of the book of acts. read i Corinthian chapt 12 - 14. The church has never told anyone to ignore the word of God!!! never!!!The apostle Paul told them that he spoke in tongues more than they did and he NEVER said to do away with it. he said to be orderly about it. Hebrews 13;8 says that Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. Scripture has not changed and the Pope backs what the word says! On that note I am a catholic raised, protestant adult in ministry for years, returning to catholic church. Mark 16 is for ALL believers. Was not just for the apostles…is for all believers…all.
I am a recipient of healing, deliverance and the mighty power of God. Jesus Himself said, “If only we believe…” Its that simple. we try to hard to box God in. My dear brothers adn sisters in Christ be very careful not to box God in. You are right in one instance…if you dont beleive it? Its not going to happen for you!!! Plain and simple. the catholic church isnt any different. Jesus said that tradition was only when wrong when it superceded Gods word! The difference is catholics take what is given to them and some never study for themselves. I just read an article about the Pope saying that catholic christians must share the light of Jesus outside of the church and they must know the word of God as well. Is anybody aware that the bible says that Faith comes by hearing the word of God? Thats it folks and the church backs that up!!!
anyway I hope you receive what I have said in love…DONT BOX GOD IN>>>>>>>>
In His love,
Deborah…devorah…shalom.
If you can’t at least chuckle at that your to serious about things. Seriously whenever I chuckle at this part my mom says it is Blashemy against God…But others said scoffing, “They have had too much new wine.” Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them, “You who are Jews, indeed all of you staying in Jerusalem. Let this be known to you, and listen to my words. These people are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning.”
I suppose that depends upon the nature of the critcism. The charisma are entirely scriptural, and included within the teachings of the church, just like other forms of worship and practice that have been active since the days of the Apostles. If people do not notice that when reading, then yes, I think some closer reading is in order. If criticizing the teaching of the Jesus, the Apostles,and the magesterium is criticizing God, then it is.So let me get this striaght… Critizes the Charismatic movement = critizing God and not reading the Bible.
Whenever Jesus came around, the demons recognized Him, and said all sorts of things. Most of these did not get recorded, probably for lack of fitness.Acts along with the Gospel of John and Sirach is my favorite book of the Bible. Help me out here, where’s the part that had them rolling around oinking like pigs and barking like dogs…
This is a common misunderstanding of the scriptural teaching.Also can’t find the part where they spoke in giberish. When tounges came apound them the only thing that happened was everyone could understand them.
From Acts 2:5-6 And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim. Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language.I suppose that depends upon the nature of the critcism. The charisma are entirely scriptural, and included within the teachings of the church, just like other forms of worship and practice that have been active since the days of the Apostles. If people do not notice that when reading, then yes, I think some closer reading is in order. If criticizing the teaching of the Jesus, the Apostles,and the magesterium is criticizing God, then it is.
Last I checked the Bible was VERY clear that your given the Gifts by God and not everyone gets the same ones. Yet Charismatics would have you believe everyone without the ability to speak in tounges doesn’t have the Holy Spirit.
Whenever Jesus came around, the demons recognized Him, and said all sorts of things. Most of these did not get recorded, probably for lack of fitness.
Here I’m refereing to the Toronto blessing. Where people parking and oinking was considered a sign from God himself…
This is a common misunderstanding of the scriptural teaching.
This is an awfully broad sweeping and prejudicial statement. 25 years in various protestant charismatic communities never exposed me to any “money making and taking advantage”.
You’re right my comments were broad and sweeping and I repent of that. That was uncharitable of me. I’ve got 30 years within the protestant movement myself and my time there showed me nothing redemptive about the Charismatic movement. However that doesn’t mean that there couldn’t have been something there.
In my experiences with that movement the theology was universaly bad if not blasphemous. The practitioners were arrogant struting around trying one up each other on which powers they had. Ministers were greedy and often personally owned the church property they worshiped on and so that they could set up dynasties of ministers within their families. Or looking to find a demon in everything so that they could show off their exorcism abilities.
Nowadays, of course the “Name it and Claim it” prosperity gospel is on the rise within the movement and most of its front people now hold to that heresy.
To be honest most of what I saw was fake and obviously so. I realize what I’m saying anecdotal as it speaks only to my experiences but in a long period of time of being exposed to the Charismatic movement I find it odd that I didn’t see one thing that seemed spiritual or miraculous. Especially for someone who actually believes in the gifts of the Spirit, miracles and God’s ability to move and change lives in dynamic ways.
Now don’t get me wrong I have known individual charismatics that I’ve loved and knew to be wonderful people. However, that had nothing to do with being Charismatic. Also while I know my language is harsh, I also wish to state that I am glad that the average person in this movement is at least beliving in Christ and trying to folow His commandments.
Why do you say that the same potential for abuse is not there? What is the potential for abuse?
The reason is that a Charismatic Catholic ultimately still must abide by doctrines of the Church. As opposed to creating an on the fly theology as seems to come out of the Protestant versions since they have no direction unifying force. A Catholic regardless of movement still has to answer to authority. That’s a good thing. I wasn’t meaning to imply that the individual members of either movement were any more or less sinful or human. If that’s what you thought I was getting at.
Although the Charismatics I have associated with don’t believe this, I realize it is a common misunderstanding, especially flagrant in protestant pentecostal sects.Last I checked the Bible was VERY clear that your given the Gifts by God and not everyone gets the same ones. Yet Charismatics would have you believe everyone without the ability to speak in tounges doesn’t have the Holy Spirit.
this was a manifestation of a certain type of gift. There are others, but I think this is not the appropriate thread to discuss them. It has become clear to me that traditional catholics on this forum are quite closed and maybe even hostile to this particular faith practice. It would be better I think, out of deference to the avoidance of the traditionals, to move the topic to the faith practice area (if indeed you are truly interested in learning more).Here I’m refereing to the Toronto blessing. Where people parking and oinking was considered a sign from God himself… [/QOUTE]
I have never heard of this, and when I followed the link provided in this thread found a site that promoted Sedavacantism, so I discounted it. I will have to find some other source to study on this point. If you have one, I am happy to explore it.
From Acts 2:5-6 And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim. Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
I don’t see anything like ishouldaboughtasaturn ishouldaboughtasaturn there…