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latinmass
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Much if not all of this “movement” is based on emotion, and many are led into error. Will anyone who follows this please respond to specific points of post #44.
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deborahssong
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greetings in the Lord!
Deborah
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Dustins dad..............You dont want to explain yet with the remarks or I should say opinion like you have, I believe you should explain. This is what I know to be true.....I have personally applied the word of God to my life and in every area of my life and I am still working on it......and I am better whole and healed! In more ways that I can explain. Let me ask you sir this......how would you explain the book of acts and all of the mentioning of the Holy Spirit? do you believe these guys got emotinal at all about what they were doing? It appears so. I am probably not getting your point....so would you please elaborate, as to help me understand your point of view? thanks so much and God bless you sir.
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latinmass
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I asked anyone if they could, to respond to post #44 a long time ago. Maybe you should respond to that first.
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DustinsDad
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Hi Deborah,
Ok, I’ll elaborate. Your defence is very if not totally emotional - emotional defenses aren’t bad in themselves - heck, we traditional minded folks are a pretty emoitional lot as well
. Bbut we can’t base truth on the emotions alone (not all “burnings in the bussoms” are from God).To be valid, the defence of the Chrismatic movent should be theological and doctrinal - based on the constant Christian understanding of the One True Church established by Jesus Christ Himself. I have yet to hear such a defence of the Charismatic movement in this way - it’s always broad and esoteric - “The Holy Spiriut is breathing ‘new life’ into the Chruch!” “Reject the Charismatic Movement and you reject the Holy Spirit!” “We must be open to the Holy Spirit!” Well ok…these same type slogans were used by the Penticostal sects as they left mainstream protestantism about a hundred years ago (which itself is problematic in that this seems to be a movement born outside of Holy Mother Church).
They statements can sound good on the surface and you are made to “feel” (emotion again) badly if you question them. But what exactly do the statements mean when you examine it in detail? What are these statements really saying…this is especially important for us as members of the One True Church to contemplate…let’s examine those excerpts I pulled from you earlier post, and I’ll try to explain my concerns… I’l have to keep it brief due to lack of time - but can elaborate in more detail later if you wish…
(continued below)
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DustinsDad
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(continued from above)
It also presents a vague calumny that if we dare to question the novelties and bizzare behavior witnessed at Charismatic events, we are somehow enemies of God and don’t want to see souls come to him.
It neglects the fact that we are warned to not accept any teaching or doctrine except that which is from Christ and the Apostles - and these are given to us through the Church He established - they don’t come to us from the outside 1900 years after the fact. They are handed down in tact in every age. So if the Charismatic movement is of God, we should be able to see such teachings on the subject handed down through Christ’s Church. And questions should be addressed as such, with writings of the saints backing up what the Charismatic movement teaches and preaches. I’m not sure that’s there my friend. And if it’s not there - we’ve got to treat it with suspicion. And if what is tought and preached contradicts what has been taught and preached in Christ’s Church, then we are bound to reject it.
Secondly, this is a very, very troublesome statment - that the church who “thought they had everything” “made God sick.” Man, I don’t even know how to handle that one without getting emotional myself. Be very very careful how you talk of the Bride of Christ.
Secondly, this paints a picture of the Church prior to the Charismatic movement as being deceived by Satan into structuring itself specifically to stifle and “shut up” the Holy Spirit - apparently for centures and centuries and centuries. This is scandalous at best and blasphemous at worst. And all too often, the very structures and things the Holy Spirit gave us through the Church to help us lift our hearts and minds to the contemplation of the Divine are utterly denograted and attacked in the process.
The Lord has given me the joy - but right now it’s the cross. I’m in His hands and that’s all I’m going to elaborate right now.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
This kind of presents a false notion that the Church was somehow “boxed in” for centuries and centuries and centuries (all the while it was converting nations and peoples and building up a Christian civilization raising saints and converting the world for Christ).
It also presents a vague calumny that if we dare to question the novelties and bizzare behavior witnessed at Charismatic events, we are somehow enemies of God and don’t want to see souls come to him.
It neglects the fact that we are warned to not accept any teaching or doctrine except that which is from Christ and the Apostles - and these are given to us through the Church He established - they don’t come to us from the outside 1900 years after the fact. They are handed down in tact in every age. So if the Charismatic movement is of God, we should be able to see such teachings on the subject handed down through Christ’s Church. And questions should be addressed as such, with writings of the saints backing up what the Charismatic movement teaches and preaches. I’m not sure that’s there my friend. And if it’s not there - we’ve got to treat it with suspicion. And if what is tought and preached contradicts what has been taught and preached in Christ’s Church, then we are bound to reject it.
First, this gives the notion that you don’t believe the Catholic Church has the fullness of Divine Revelation. Am I wrong here?
Secondly, this is a very, very troublesome statment - that the church who “thought they had everything” “made God sick.” Man, I don’t even know how to handle that one without getting emotional myself. Be very very careful how you talk of the Bride of Christ.
Two things - first, no one says the Holy Spirit left the Church. In fact, the problem many traditional folks such as myself have with the Charismatic movement is that we understand and believe quite sincerely that the Holy Spirit never has left us and will always be with us until the end of time. And the “manifestations” of the Charismatic movement are not necessary for the Holy Spirit to be with us, said manifestations are questionable as to whether they really are the Holy Spirit since they do not appear to be of the kind described in Scripture or in Church history.
Secondly, this paints a picture of the Church prior to the Charismatic movement as being deceived by Satan into structuring itself specifically to stifle and “shut up” the Holy Spirit - apparently for centures and centuries and centuries. This is scandalous at best and blasphemous at worst. And all too often, the very structures and things the Holy Spirit gave us through the Church to help us lift our hearts and minds to the contemplation of the Divine are utterly denograted and attacked in the process.
Which tradition of the Church keeps His children from him? You’re assuming something here about the Church prior to the Charismatic movement, but I’m not sure what it is. Could you be more specific?
Amen to that - same here.
I would love to say that everything in my life is perfect right now, but I have to admit that I am undergoing several severe difficult trials in just about every area of my life and it’s a daily (perhaps minute by minute) struggle that would be impossible to undergo without continualy clinging to Our Lord to keep going forward.
The Lord has given me the joy - but right now it’s the cross. I’m in His hands and that’s all I’m going to elaborate right now.
I’m sure they were emotional. I’m just not sure their experiences were what we see in today’s charismatic circles (see post #44 please). I’m yet to be convinced.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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DustinsDad
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Thanks (name removed by moderator).
I don’t see anything up there about praying in tounges - or anything that would specifically defend or promote the Charismatic movement. And actually, I would (and I think most traditonal folks would) apply the above passage as a way to test the Charismatic movement to see if it is really valid. Crucial point is that the “us” up there that Paul speaks of* is* the One True Church - the Catholic Chruch established by Jesus Christ. That’s why we can’t just rely on emotional pleas that “It’s the Holy Spirit because I just know and feel it’s the Holy Spirit” - we’ve got to test the teachings behind the movement and see if those teachings contradict what has been handed to us from Christ and the Apostles.
Well, as someone who has never spoken or prayed in tounges - I can assure you that the Holy Spirit’s inexpressible groanings are quite commonplace in my prayer life - these days especially.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
I don’t see anything up there about praying in tounges - or anything that would specifically defend or promote the Charismatic movement. And actually, I would (and I think most traditonal folks would) apply the above passage as a way to test the Charismatic movement to see if it is really valid. Crucial point is that the “us” up there that Paul speaks of* is* the One True Church - the Catholic Chruch established by Jesus Christ. That’s why we can’t just rely on emotional pleas that “It’s the Holy Spirit because I just know and feel it’s the Holy Spirit” - we’ve got to test the teachings behind the movement and see if those teachings contradict what has been handed to us from Christ and the Apostles.
Well, as someone who has never spoken or prayed in tounges - I can assure you that the Holy Spirit’s inexpressible groanings are quite commonplace in my prayer life - these days especially.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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DustinsDad
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I understand this viewpoint. I’m a little more cautious becaue of two things: 1. I’m not sure exactly what Pope JP2 said and in what context. and 2. Even a pope’s personal opinion of a movement isn’t Divinely protected - and I truly think, with all due respect to the late Vicar of Christ, that Pope JP2 was “open and optimistic” almost to a fault.
I am sure there are totally faithful, devount, orthodox Catholic folks in the Charismatic movement - know one myself. I just suspect that maybe they are the exception rather than the norm, that they may be faithful, devout and orthodox despite their involvement with the movement rather than because of it. And I’m not so sure the “movement” leads more souls in to the Church rather than out, and I suspect the movement leads many souls within to religious indifferenitsm, at least within the context of the varous protestant sects.
Now all that being said, I’m not condemning it all outright - tht’s not my place. I’m just saying that there’s a whole lot of red flags in there that should be a major cause of concern for anyone involved or thinking of getting involved.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
I am sure there are totally faithful, devount, orthodox Catholic folks in the Charismatic movement - know one myself. I just suspect that maybe they are the exception rather than the norm, that they may be faithful, devout and orthodox despite their involvement with the movement rather than because of it. And I’m not so sure the “movement” leads more souls in to the Church rather than out, and I suspect the movement leads many souls within to religious indifferenitsm, at least within the context of the varous protestant sects.
Now all that being said, I’m not condemning it all outright - tht’s not my place. I’m just saying that there’s a whole lot of red flags in there that should be a major cause of concern for anyone involved or thinking of getting involved.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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deborahssong
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Dustins dad…
on that note …I am going to be quite honest…your remarks have reminded me of some of the reasons I left the catholic church…too many tryng to figure out with their heads…not bieng able ot explain the longing in our hearts for more…of God! .and our HEART is where the real deal takes place…Jesus said …Out of the mouth of the man his heart speaks…on that note God Bless you sir…and thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut though I am a bit befoggled by it… I appreciate honest open communication and correction and reproof…it is what make us grow…and turn to HIM!!!
Deborah
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The refernce to the church that made God sick? Is in revelation and I think if He is spewing them out of His mouth that is what He means. It was not an intention for irreverance...it is what it is.....the church of Laodacea? was a church that thought it had everything and in that process became lukewarm! That is what I meant....and I am most always careful about what I say when referring to scripture......I have studied under some great bible teachers and yes a priest. However what I have said may have been with emotions but it is the truth according to the word of God..................so now that I have heard these comments I am suppose to believe that what I experienced in my own life isnt really God that it is emotions of spirituality? or somethng like that? I think not......I KNOW where I was sir, and where I am today! It could ONLY be the power of the Holy spirit to transform a life like mine! Romans 12;2......transfomed by th renewing of your mind...renewing to what? what the word of God has to say about life as a beleiver!
Deacon Ed B sure understood what I said.....bless the Lord for that! You keep warning me about emotions getting in the way of truth? We are human beings created by God with emotions. The word of God is filled with truth yes, but filled with people God used, with lots of emotions......and as far as the renewal? I agree with the fact that why not just call it what it is.....the early church spoke about these things as if it were an every day occurance....oh my it was! I will say this again......all generations have tried to box God in.....and it cannot be done. I have seen great miracles sir too numeorus to share........emotions cannot heal someone who was told they would not live.......emotions cannot change a murderous heart to a heart on fire for God. The utterances that have come from within me trust me isnt me! we can have as much of God as we WILL desire. it is up to us....Deborah
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DustinsDad
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The Christians spoken of here had come under the sway of temoral comforts and earthly things, and in doing so grew luke warm - indifferent to God…
And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.
Of which they are commanded to not pursue the earthly pleasures as their “god”, but to seek the Truth of God in Jesus Christ - which is true richness and glory. Should speak volumes to today’s world. We should be zealous for the Truth of God, zealous for all that He has revealed to us for our salvation.
I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance. Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
I have no doubt about the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt that such things happen outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church - I’ve seen it myself in the lives of friends of mine. When such happens outside the visible bonds of the Church Christ established for us all, then they are a great first step that leads to His Church.
When such leads a person out of the Church then they have either misunderstood and misinterpreted what the Holy Spirit was doing with them and subsequently lost their zeal for the Truth of Christ - which are manifest, explained, taught, and preached by the promise of Christ and the guarantee of the protection of the Holy Spirit in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. These folks have traded Truth for something less, something false, or something temporal. .
Or perhaps it was not of the Holy Spirit to begin with. That’s why we gotta “test the spirits”.
It could also be that they have traded an emotional feeling, perhaps a feeling of “power” in alot of cases, for the true awesome and humbling power and reality - and sublimity - of Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Blessed Sacrament.
It may very well not have been you. It also, may very well have not been God. Case in point - the Mormons.
Or it may be that God tried to use this experience to bring you deepr into the One True Faith, but you were deceived or misguided into thinking the One True Church wasn’t what it - and 2000 years of constant Christian teaching - and Scripture - and Apostolic Tradition - said it was.
I did not realize until this post that you had formerly been catholic and left the Church. You seem very sincere, and I don’t mean to offend you, but truth is truth, and I think your comments sort of explain why traditional catholic folks are suspect of the Charismatic movement.
I wish only to offer you the sincere and heartfelt invitation to come back home to the Church Christ established for you, to the infinite graces given in His gifts to His bride - the Sacraments. And to the awesomeness of knowing God in the soundness of the True Teachings of Christ found only in totality and under the protection of the Holy Spirit in His Holy Catholic Church.
I invite you back for the Glory of God and for the salvation of your eternal soul.
And I close with this passage:
…Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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Sure
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It is interesting that the parish believed to have the most seminarians (15 right now for a parish of only 825 families) in the US is Christ the King in Ann Arbor, MI, a charismatic and very orthodox parish. They also have 15 sisters at the parish half of whom came from the parish and approximately 15-20 men have been ordained since the parish was opened 25 years ago.
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latinmass
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I don’t know if this is interesting, but it does align with the last passage from above. Charismatic is not orthodox.
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Sure
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Go to their site and check them out. They’re quite orthodox no matter what you say.
rc.net/lansing/ctk/
I saw on a blog when doing a search that as of September, they now have 21 seminarians.
In fact, the pastor plans on adding the Traditional Latin Mass.
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Deacon_Ed_B
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To Deborahssong - I am humbled to be called a man of God. Thank you, I shall always treasure this.
To Dustins Dad - Yes the devil can do what you say. No one is denying that. I look at the number of bishops and priests that I know who are truly Charismatic and see the work of the Spirit, not of the father of lies.
Deacon Ed B
To Dustins Dad - Yes the devil can do what you say. No one is denying that. I look at the number of bishops and priests that I know who are truly Charismatic and see the work of the Spirit, not of the father of lies.
Deacon Ed B
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deborahssong
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To all who have posted eher in this last passage,
I appreiate al of the explicit refernces and the detail that you have given…I wasnt aware fo that however I have not been reed up the liturgy and the by laws of the church fro years. I was raised catholic, was plannoing on becomeing a nun UNTIL I met my husband, and I come form a long line sir, of priest nuns and yes a queen, a duke and some others! my heriatge in this is very long and roots back to early pioneers here. We can visit a certain city and my great great great great grandfathrs name is allover the catholic museums and historical sights. Now sayng that I will agree with you on one thing…I left the church in the manner i did…out of anger and hurt and I found Jesus!
However where i have been has been the most awesome road i could have ver traveled. yes i have had hardships, yes i almost died 17 yrs ago and i am still getting drs to say…adults just dont survive this sort of thing…however at that time I had a great church who truly did what the church was meant to be, and they literally took care of my family while i recuped…almost five years!!! I had a nurse that took care of me while in intesive care, see me out here several years ago and she acted as if she had seen a ghost! I give God all of the glory and you know what? I would repeat Gods scripture even when I laid on death bed…I would say I am by faith going to get up from here and Jesus is the reason. I would say by HIs stripes I am healed…because WE ARE!
The church obviously recognizes the fact of the book of Acts and its relevance! Bless His name! trust me Dustins dad I am not offended at all. I do believe that you are incorrect about some of what you have said…in that case I pray that Jesus visits you sir, iin visions and dreams …He did some of the apostles and He will us! As for coming back to the church…that is always a possibility however I am moving with caution…I will truly challenge many people with that move…and i will no doubt hurt some…however unitl then I must follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and search…thank you again for your educated and informed info. I love the fact that the apostle Paul was suppose to be the most intelligent of the Pharisees’ ? Sanhendrin? and yet…Jesus met him where he was and it wasnt about what he knew about the synagogue or his rules and regulations and canons! It was about a personal one on one with Jesus! That is what is missing!!!..and why people just do their own things…whatever it is… God Bless …
deborah
I appreiate al of the explicit refernces and the detail that you have given…I wasnt aware fo that however I have not been reed up the liturgy and the by laws of the church fro years. I was raised catholic, was plannoing on becomeing a nun UNTIL I met my husband, and I come form a long line sir, of priest nuns and yes a queen, a duke and some others! my heriatge in this is very long and roots back to early pioneers here. We can visit a certain city and my great great great great grandfathrs name is allover the catholic museums and historical sights. Now sayng that I will agree with you on one thing…I left the church in the manner i did…out of anger and hurt and I found Jesus!
However where i have been has been the most awesome road i could have ver traveled. yes i have had hardships, yes i almost died 17 yrs ago and i am still getting drs to say…adults just dont survive this sort of thing…however at that time I had a great church who truly did what the church was meant to be, and they literally took care of my family while i recuped…almost five years!!! I had a nurse that took care of me while in intesive care, see me out here several years ago and she acted as if she had seen a ghost! I give God all of the glory and you know what? I would repeat Gods scripture even when I laid on death bed…I would say I am by faith going to get up from here and Jesus is the reason. I would say by HIs stripes I am healed…because WE ARE!
The church obviously recognizes the fact of the book of Acts and its relevance! Bless His name! trust me Dustins dad I am not offended at all. I do believe that you are incorrect about some of what you have said…in that case I pray that Jesus visits you sir, iin visions and dreams …He did some of the apostles and He will us! As for coming back to the church…that is always a possibility however I am moving with caution…I will truly challenge many people with that move…and i will no doubt hurt some…however unitl then I must follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and search…thank you again for your educated and informed info. I love the fact that the apostle Paul was suppose to be the most intelligent of the Pharisees’ ? Sanhendrin? and yet…Jesus met him where he was and it wasnt about what he knew about the synagogue or his rules and regulations and canons! It was about a personal one on one with Jesus! That is what is missing!!!..and why people just do their own things…whatever it is… God Bless …
deborah
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palmas85
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I’d sure like to know which seminary these men are studying at and where this other group of 15-20, no specific number?
strange, studied at as well. Not that I doubt you, but I would much prefer to verify this statement on my own. I have often heard that the Charismatic renewal has fostered hundreds if not thousands of vocations, yet .no one has ever been able to point me as to where they study at.
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latinmass
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Read the writings of the Church Fathers to see how Christs Church was operated the first couple of hundred years. You may change your mind on this topic, but more importantly it will bring you back to the one and only Church of Christ.
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byers
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Hell
perator
Here is an interesting site that explains some of the problems and deceptions involving the charismatic movement. Enjoy
charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/
peratorHere is an interesting site that explains some of the problems and deceptions involving the charismatic movement. Enjoy
charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/
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BCH
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I absolutely agree. Test the spirit and watch out for disobedience.
If the church does not condem the Charasmatic Gifts and/or groups Why should we condem it.
As with anything else, you will find truly gifted people and groups. Also, you will find imposter people and groups that migh bark like dogs.
Let’s take what is good and toss out the junk.
.
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Elizabeth2
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It’s easy to judge other people from the outside. You don’t know what their relationship with Jesus is. I’ve often been surprised by what people say about Jesus and their relationship with him. Some people don’t wear their faith on their sleeves.
The “one on one with Jesus” that Paul experienced led him back to the early Church and the apostles. He didn’t go out and just do his own thing, relying on his experience alone. After his vision the Lord told him "get up now and go into the city, and you will be told what to do" The Lord restored his sight through Ananias. Paul was in communion with the other apostles and he spoke very strongly about the unity of the Body of Christ, the Church.
Someone has mentioned the Catholic Catechism. There in 801 it says 'No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. “Their office is not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good” so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together “for the common good.” ’
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not given for individuals alone but for the building up of the Church.
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DustinsDad
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The liturgy is a beautiful thing to study and learn about and go deep into. It is indeed the universal prayer(s) of the Church. I have fallen in love with the traditional liturgy - you should read through the prayers of the mass (see sacred-texts.com/chr/lmass/ord.htm). And oh, the sight, the sound, the smells, and the prayerful contemplation of the a Solemn High Mass. It has been called the most beautiful thing this side of heaven, and indeed whoever said that was on to something. Grown men have wept in prayer at Mass - I speak from personal experience. It is as the Council of Trent stated:
She has likewise employed ceremonies, such as mystic benedictions, lights, incense, vestments, and many other things of this kind, derived from an apostolical discipline and tradition, whereby both the majesty of so great a sacrifice might be recommended, and the minds of the faithful be excited, by those visible signs of religion and piety, to the contemplation of those most sublime things which are hidden in this sacrifice.
(cf Trent, Session 22, Chapter 5)
About the by-laws…I’m not sure what you mean. ANd of course the ol’ human side of an organization the size of the Church of course needs some rules and regulations to keep things from decending into chaos. Do you mean some of the discplines of the Church? Well, rather than look at them as bad things, look at them as good things, helpful things, little tools and guides to help us grow and walk in our journey with the Lord. And certainly, if you look to the early Church in Acts, you will see the Church does indeed have the authority from Christ by the Holy Spirit to establish (and to loose) disciplines. And rather than cringe and rebel at such things, we should rejoice! Imagine that…
Acts 15:28-31
For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us, to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things: That you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which things keeping yourselves, you shall do well. Fare ye well. They therefore being dismissed, went down to Antioch; and gathering together the multitude, delivered the epistle. Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
What made you want to become a nun? What was drawing you in that direction?
Alot of folks have left out of anger or hurt…the Church is both human and Divine, and the human side can let you down sometimes. Just remember that Jesus was always here - always…and we shouldn’t leave the Church Christ established for us because of human weakness, error, callousness, or whatever. And what you found outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church are also inside, indeed the truth you found out there are and were and always will be Her’s to begin with because they were given and entrusted to Her by Christ Himself. These truths - Jesus Himself - is there, and then some. And they are there because we need them - and He knows we need them - that’s why He gave them to us.
All that being said,I had no such excuses (not that any are “good”) when I walked away from Christ’s Church for all-too-many lost years. God’s grace brought me home. God’s grace keeps me home.
(continued)
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