Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[DustinsDad]

(continued from above)

However where i have been has been the most awesome road i could have ver traveled. yes i have had hardships, yes i almost died 17 yrs ago and i am still getting drs to say…adults just dont survive this sort of thing…however at that time I had a great church who truly did what the church was meant to be, and they literally took care of my family while i recuped…almost five years!!! I had a nurse that took care of me while in intesive care, see me out here several years ago and she acted as if she had seen a ghost! I give God all of the glory and you know what? I would repeat Gods scripture even when I laid on death bed…I would say I am by faith going to get up from here and Jesus is the reason. I would say by HIs stripes I am healed…because WE ARE!

And indeed we are healed by His stripes. And God sometimes draws straight with crooked lines. Perhaps He intends for you to come back home and bring some souls with you to Him? Ya never know.

The church obviously recognizes the fact of the book of Acts and its relevance! Bless His name! trust me Dustins dad I am not offended at all. I do believe that you are incorrect about some of what you have said…in that case I pray that Jesus visits you sir, iin visions and dreams …He did some of the apostles and He will us!

I’ll take dreams and visions, sure! But rest assured that I meet Jesus already, personally, in the Sacraments He gave to us in His Church. And those aren’t in the “might be given” category - they are there and waiting, He is there and waiting for me and for you and for every soul upon the earth. Even outside of the Sacraments, I can still sit and pray and talk and “unload” all my prayers, problems, trials and tribulations on my Lord - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. I just got home from Eucharistic Adoration a while back where I spent an hour face to face with the Creator of the Universe, my Redeemer and King and Savior - should I demand more than that on this side of heaven? It is already infinitely more than I deserve.

As for coming back to the church…that is always a possibility however I am moving with caution…I will truly challenge many people with that move…and i will no doubt hurt some…however unitl then I must follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and search.

Praise the Lord! I am glad to hear that and you are in my prayers. We should all always be willing to go where the Lord leads us! Here’s a page full of links to archived Journey Homeprograms - interviews with converts from various faith traditions. You might find them helpful and interesting.

…thank you again for your educated and informed info. I love the fact that the apostle Paul was suppose to be the most intelligent of the Pharisees’ ? Sanhendrin? and yet…Jesus met him where he was and it wasnt about what he knew about the synagogue or his rules and regulations and canons! It was about a personal one on one with Jesus! That is what is missing!!!..and why people just do their own things…whatever it is…

I’d say OF COURSE it’s about the personal relationship with Jesus! And I’d also echo what Elizabeth2 wrote in post 82.

Thanks for talking with me today - it’s been very interesting. But I did not expect to be on the computer this much today - so shame on you!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[deborahssong]

Thank you Dustins dad!

 What drew me to be  a nun?  to be able to serve the Lord without any interferance and to be able to be soley dedicated to the LORD!  weird thing is?  I still feel that way ...............here I am a mother of two great kids, both serving the Lord, my son is an evanglelist, and a firey one at that.......and a daugter who teaches in a christian school! a grandmother, who just happens to have the best granddaughter in the world who is 11! a career that I love and a husband of 38 yesr that i love dearly.......and yet? I desire to be in fulltime service to the Lord!  ISnt God awesome? Drawing me even as we speak here!  recently a lady from the catholic historical society said to me ....Deborah....dont you know your ancestors are callig you back home/ they have been interceeding for you for a long long time.......so you better listen ot the Holy Spirit.............some statement huh?
 My mother picked my name out of scripture, actually from the book of Judges.  Deborah measn seeking one and boy is that ever correct!  I have always been a searcher and I am sure at times to my detriment.  Faith is beleiivng in that which is UNSEEN.........Gods kingdom is established and set in moiton already!  we must believe what He says....period.  I do know that the church has regs in place for order and such.....as long as they never cross the word of God. From what I can see thus far iin the early wriitngs, they do not.  They line up with His word!  Many proetstants beleive that catholic doctrine crosses scripture but from what I can see so far, that is another rumor!
 The info that you have shared I have made notes and I am printing to study.  You all have helped me a great deal with my journey.  I am most familiar with Journey Home as I have watched it very often.  I have read some books that have helped.  My heart longs to serve the Lord and He knows my heart!  I was invited to become an active member of the renewal here, and invited to get involved in leadership. The chair person said that my experience is much needed in the church!  to God be the glory.......and who knows, that may very well be the road I am now on......Thank you for praying for me as I said when I make the change ...it will cost.....in relationships and such......however from what I hear from others who have made the journey......He restores so much more anew!!!  I trully want to be obedient to God, at all costs... and being on the computer too long? just look at it as helping a sister in Christ return to her roots........God Bless....

Debbie

 

[Sure]

I’d sure like to know which seminary these men are studying at and where this other group of 15-20, no specific number? strange, studied at as well. Not that I doubt you, but I would much prefer to verify this statement on my own. I have often heard that the Charismatic renewal has fostered hundreds if not thousands of vocations, yet .no one has ever been able to point me as to where they study at.

There was an article some time ago in the national catholic register. You can view it if you have a subscription, just search 1 parish, 15 seminarians. It mentions that most of their seminarians are split between St. John Vianney and the Detroit Major Seminary with a couple other places. I believe they also have a couple of men with the Franciscans of Renewal. I believe the number of priests is vague because it was from the pastor who has been there for 10-15 years, but was not there before that. Probably your best bet would be to call Fr. Ed Fride, the pastor, and speak to him about it. Not sure if you read it, but he is also planning on learning the TLM and periodically saying the Mass.

 

[deborahssong]

Elizabeth 2,

Greetings in the Lord!  I just want ot say something abuot your comment to " wearing theri faiht on their sleeves".  Please let em share what JESUS says about what we believe and who we are......You shall know my children by the FRUIT they bear!  Let your light so shine...as a city on the hill......Do not hide your light under the basket?.......now saying all of that and  I am sure there are much more references to this......our faith should be seen by all.  How else will we be witness to others so that they may want to know Jesus?  I believe that is so clear.  

Also pelase understand what I am saying and it sounds like Sambos671 is saying something similar...my greatest experinces with the LIVING GOD has been away from the catholic church.  that is a problem that must be addressed....and I thinkit is.....

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and I am truly learning form everyone here! God bless …
Debbie

 

[DustinsDad]

Regarding Christ the King Parish in Ann Arbor, MI…

Despite my misgivings and caution about the Charismatic movement - if the parish is producing vocations to the priesthood and religous life - and if the vocations are orthodox, solid and faithful to the perinnial teachings of the Church - then praise God…gotta give that to them…and keep them coming thank you very much.

The only thing that kind of makes me take a step back is this from the pastor - talking about the Charismatic movement and Pope John Paul II’s comments on it…

“…He uses the very significant term “co-essential” to describe the importance of the charismatic dimension of the Church. This also describes the nature of the relation between the charismatic and the institutional. To say that it is “co-essential” is a stronger statement than to simply have said, for example, that they are both essential. “Co-essential” has the additional connotation that they are intrinsically related to each other; they are mutually incomplete without each other.”
(see rc.net/lansing/ctk/welcome/charismatic1.doc)

Which I found kind of odd…and could be taken the wrong way (i.e., the Sacraments are not enough by themselves, are “equal” somehow to the “charismatic” gifts of toungues and healings, that if you don’t have the “charismatic gifts” you are an incomplete Christian, etc.). I’m not sure exactly what he means by it though - and hopefully I am taking this wrong. After all, I’m just some catholic guy hundreds of miles from the parish - so what do I know? .

The only thing one might note on the parish, at least from what I gather at the website, is that it was set up as a personal parish (like many traditional parishes), which is one that may draw from a larger geographic area…

As a ‘personal parish’ of the Bishop, we do not have a territory that we are responsible for like most parishes but instead are officially called to minister to Catholics who are seeking a deeper presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Our liturgies and overall ministry are thusly oriented to encourage growth in the Holy Spirit and the charismatic gifts that He wishes to provide.
(see rc.net/lansing/ctk/welcome/index.html)

I think nature of a personal parish in and of itself draws in more devout families on average since they are willing to travel the distance to attend a specific parish for a specific “spirituality”, which often takes much sacrifice and dedication in the first place.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

…and being on the computer too long? just look at it as helping a sister in Christ return to her roots…God Bless…

Haha! You just made my night. Thanks so much.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DebChris]

One of the biggest criticisms I read about the Charismatic Renewal by those skeptical of this work of the Holy Spirit is the perception that it is merely a matter of emotion. This criticism is addressed by the Charismatic Renewal itself.
At a Jesus Day conference in Chicago months before I even knew what the Charismatic Renewal was, one of the speakers speaking about discernment mentioned the possibility of “being so filled by the Spirit as to lose sight of the Spirit” This is quite possible, especially when someody is new to the workings of the Holy Spirit. In their own literature, the Charismatic Renewal mentions the dangers of elitism, spiritual pride, neglect of doctrine, and emotionalism. This brings me to the question. What makes the Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church any different from the workings of the Holy Spirit in other denomination, such as the Assembly of God or Pentecostal Holiness Church?
As Catholics,those of us who are Charismatic, do pray and worship in tongues. This is not, however, the focus of Charismatic teaching. Charismatic Catholics are called to adhere to three Spritual Principles set forth by Pope Paul VI:
1)Faithfulness to the authentic teaching of faith
2) Grateful reception of gifts
3) Supremacy of love over all the other gifts

I meantioned FIRE rallies in my earlier post. The last time I attended one, the Mass was concelebrated by 2 bishops. The worship of Catholic Charismatics is not limited to speaking in tongues or going to prayer meetings. Many of us pray the rosary and read devotional books which may never have been opened without the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives. As I walk down the street singing in my prayer language, I have become aware of a different quality to the way I pray, as opposed to those outside the Catholic Church. I cannot deny how the gift which I have received has indeed helped me discern one course of action over another. Prayer in tongues is in fact one of the ways that I test the spirits. The bottom line is that this gift from God is something I could never return, even if I wanted to.

 

[drafdog]

This is what it means to be truly Catholic. We have here an example of a mode of spirituality within the Church which is clearly not shared by all. Catholic means “here comes everyone,” and the strength of Catholicism is its ability and willingness to accept and absorb a broad range of spiritualities.
It was not just John Paul II who accepted the validity of charismatic spirituality; Paul VI met with and blessed leaders of the movement on many occasions as well. As for this being something “protestant,” I recall a Catholic gentleman (retired) I met in the late '60’s who had been praying in tongues since childhood. He had no idea what it was about, but had experienced it after being blessed by a local priest when he was very ill. It occurred only when he was praying and because it “felt right” (joyful, peaceful) he didn’t fight it. It was only after his wife brought him to a charismatic prayer meeting that he even spoke about it. I was part of a team teaching the “Life in the Spirit” seminars when his wife brought him into our seminar.

Matthew

 

[Elizabeth2]

Thank you Dustins dad!
My heart longs to serve the Lord and He knows my heart! I was invited to become an active member of the renewal here, and invited to get involved in leadership. The chair person said that my experience is much needed in the church! to God be the glory…and who knows, that may very well be the road I am now on…Thank you for praying for me as I said when I make the change …it will cost…in relationships and such…however from what I hear from others who have made the journey…He restores so much more anew!!! I trully want to be obedient to God, at all costs… and being on the computer too long? just look at it as helping a sister in Christ return to her roots…God Bless…
Debbie

I don’t know what Church you are in now Debbie, but if you remember at the last supper Jesus knelt down and washed the disciples feet. Peter didn’t think it was proper for the Lord to do that, and Jesus told him that if he didn’t, he could have no part in Him. Jesus humbled himself to give us himself in the Eucharist. He said “Do this in memory of me.” Only in the Catholic (and Orthodox) Church will you find the real presence of Jesus. He gives Himself to you Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. He said “I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you. Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in him. As I, who am sent by the living Father, myself draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will draw life from me. This is the bread come down from heaven; not like the bread our ancestors ate; they are dead, but anyone who eats this bread will live forever.” John 6:53-58
Read the whole Chapter John 6. Protestants seem to miss out these very important passages.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

alkjadk ajdilfjfjfk fjaj asj afjklfjdkl;fajd jfifjit fasklffajfa af kajfalfjf afjlfjafdafjak;j afjafjkak f afjdfjieurwieujv aoinanavknfioafnkankaf dflajfifnna ewoajoaja a9afjflafofj aaieaj;jfaf aa aifaoie aja f ajeia a a eiajeiaja; aiea w af;aieaj al aauiu a[aa[af a jojakljajaf af jafjaj afjaki9f afjafkjafj afajfdjaifjlafja ajfjalfjaoifaea ;af ajoafnal; aaflfjao ajajaaljafajfiaf;jd aaij;falja faafdjad;aie;faflajdfald a fa9fjfe;af a;flkafjiavnnkvn as a;v ajaf; siafl; val;ieaaj;f vca; fae;aj;ac;ca;c.
Am I speaking in tongues, not!

 

[DustinsDad]

…Prayer in tongues is in fact one of the ways that I test the spirits…

Being that there have been cases of people praying in tounges that have been discovered to have been, unknowingly to them, cursing God in a foreign language, it seems that you are treading dangerous ground my friend.

I’m still trying to find if anyone has any historical and authentically Apostolic evidence for this phenomena - especially for the Charismatic movement’s tendancy to “seek” this phenomena out. I seem to recall that the great mystics of the Church down through the ages said we are not to seek for such things.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Being that there have been cases of people praying in tounges that have been discovered to have been, unknowingly to them, cursing God in a foreign language, it seems that you are treading dangerous ground my friend.

I’m still trying to find if anyone has any historical and authentically Apostolic evidence for this phenomena - especially for the Charismatic movement’s tendancy to “seek” this phenomena out. I seem to recall that the great mystics of the Church down through the ages said we are not to seek for such things.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I do not believe it is accurate to say that Catholic Charismatics “seek” this but encourage people to be open to it.

 

[deborahssong]

Good point Dustins dad,

      However I would like to say that sometimes we are trying to explain, analyze, and tear apart the word of God.........I am certain that WHEN we as individuals accept the INERRENT word of God.........then that eliminates all of the questions, and educated explanations of doctrine........My point worth repeating....Jesus said in the book of Matthew.....Tradition KEEPS my children from me.....He was speaking of the educated, doctrine affiliated with pharisees and Saducees and others......who were well grounded in the doctirne and rules of the laws of their faith and culture!
      What I am sensing here is the "defense" from the catholic church for the movement of the Holy Spirit in the church. The Holy Spirit requires no defense.....  The awesome thing about God is that He can do and will and has all through the Old testament and New,  confounded the wisdom of the wise......scripture says so.  On that note I will close.....I am just so thankful that I know that I know that I know.....Jesus IS LORD and with HIM all things are possible....to those who beleive.....God bless......Deacon Ed B? keep that heart of yours afire for the Lord as it sounds like He is doing mighty works in you sir!!!!! Thank you Dustins dad for you very informative info which has opened my eyes to much!

SHalom!!!
Deborah

 

[DustinsDad]

…Jesus said in the book of Matthew…Tradition KEEPS my children from me…He was speaking of the educated, doctrine affiliated with pharisees and Saducees and others…who were well grounded in the doctirne and rules of the laws of their faith and culture!

I don’t think he condemned tradition in general - I think he was talking about certain bad traditions that had popped up (I don’t recall all the details right now, but one condemned as a “tradition of men” was something about putting money in the Temple treasury…seems good on the surface, but it was to avoid having to use it to provide for elderly parents or some such thing) and of He condemned the hypocracy of the Pharisees in holding to the letter of the law while completely missing the spirit behind the letter.

…What I am sensing here is the “defense” from the catholic church for the movement of the Holy Spirit in the church. The Holy Spirit requires no defense…

I know He doesn’t - but us sheep sure do! I just think we need to be very careful that the phenomena experienced is that of Him.

The Evil One is much, much “smarter” that us and can no doubt use such things to try to trip us up…he no doubt sometimes “apes” God (that’s the best word I’ve heard to describe this tactic) in order to get us to think it’s Him and gain our trust.

That’s one of the reason why I think observing disobedience is the biggest red-flag to watch out for - Satan can “ape” alot of things, but he cannot or perhaps wll not “ape” humble obediance.

Another thing to watch out for is anything that comes from such phenomena that contradicts what we know the Holy Spirit has already told us - and that means what He has definitively told us through the Church Christ established.

Since He is not the author of confusion, He won’t and can’t contradict Himself.

…I am just so thankful that I know that I know that I know…Jesus IS LORD and with HIM all things are possible…to those who beleive…God bless…

Amen to that - and peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Margarite]

This stuff is nuts!

 

[DebChris]

This is what it means to be truly Catholic. We have here an example of a mode of spirituality within the Church which is clearly not shared by all. Catholic means “here comes everyone,” and the strength of Catholicism is its ability and willingness to accept and absorb a broad range of spiritualities.
It was not just John Paul II who accepted the validity of charismatic spirituality; Paul VI met with and blessed leaders of the movement on many occasions as well. As for this being something “protestant,” I recall a Catholic gentleman (retired) I met in the late '60’s who had been praying in tongues since childhood. He had no idea what it was about, but had experienced it after being blessed by a local priest when he was very ill. It occurred only when he was praying and because it “felt right” (joyful, peaceful) he didn’t fight it. It was only after his wife brought him to a charismatic prayer meeting that he even spoke about it. I was part of a team teaching the “Life in the Spirit” seminars when his wife brought him into our seminar.

Matthew

Thank you for posting this. It is a good example of how the “gift of tongues” is not a new gift. Not having the gift does not make a person less holy than a person with the gift.
As Catholics we all have the Holy Eucharist available daily. This sacred gift is something that non-Catholics do not have. The gift of tongues is only one of many gifts. We find many stories of healing in the lives of the saints.

Being that there have been cases of people praying in tounges that have been discovered to have been, unknowingly to them, cursing God in a foreign language, it seems that you are treading dangerous ground my friend.

I’m still trying to find if anyone has any historical and authentically Apostolic evidence for this phenomena - especially for the Charismatic movement’s tendancy to “seek” this phenomena out. I seem to recall that the great mystics of the Church down through the ages said we are not to seek for such things.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Within the Charismatic Renewal all things are subject to discernment. If you check my initial post, you will find that I did not “seek” this particular gift. I was not even familiar with the CharismaticRrenewal. In fact I knew the consequences I would face family wise once I accepted the gift. Nobody can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Spirit nor can anybody in the Spirit curse God. Because a Christian could not “curse God,” the Romans used it as a test to root out the early Christians.
We have all received the gifts of the Holy Spirit at Baptism and Confirmation. The reality is that many of us have never opened these gifts. How would you feel if you gave somebody a gift and they refused it or simply put it on a shelf without opening it?
I did find a scripture passage where Paul refers to praying in tongues as communication between the person and God. Since I do not have my Bible with me, I will need to look it up when I get home. There are many other gifts besides the gift of tongues.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To DebChris
I believe the passage you want is in Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 8:26-27, which says, ***“The Spirit too helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in speech. He who searches hearts knows what the Spirit means, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints as God himself wills.” ***
Deacon Ed B

 

[DebChris]

To DebChris
I believe the passage you want is in Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 8:26-27, which says, ***“The Spirit too helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in speech. He who searches hearts knows what the Spirit means, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints as God himself wills.” ***
Deacon Ed B

Thanks. There is another one as well. On an earlier thread, I posted a number of scriptural references as well as titles of books about Catholic Pentecostalism. I would have included the passage I was thinking about there. It is something being a private conversion between the individual and God, a very specific reference to “prayer language” although that particular term is not used.
I thought it might be a good idea to add the link to ICCR, the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services, especially for those seeking assurance of recognition from the Holy See.
iccrs.org/English.html

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

That is the one with which I am familiar. If you have more scriptural quotes on this, I would like to know them.
Deacon Ed B

 

[DebChris]

I found the following goals of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal bolded on the ICCR website:

1. To foster mature and continuous personal conversion to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.
2. To foster a decisive personal receptivity to the person, presence, and the power of the Holy Spirit.
   iccrs.org/English.html
   “What sounds full of hope throughout the universal church - and this even in the midst of the crisis that the Church is going through in the Western world - is the upsurge of new movements that no one has planned and no one called into being, but that simply emerge of their own accord from the inner vitality of the faith. What is becoming apparent in them - albeit very faintly - is something very similar to a pentecostal hour in the Church. I am thinking for instance of the Charismatic Renewal movement, the Cursillo movement, the Focolarini, Communion and Liberation, and so on… I find it marvelous that the Spirit is once more stronger than our programs and brings himself into play in an altogether different way than we had imagined… It grows in silence. Our task - the task of the office-holders in the Church and of theologians - is to keep the door open to them, to prepare room for them…” (Pope Benedict XVI)