Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[DustinsDad]

…We have all received the gifts of the Holy Spirit at Baptism and Confirmation. The reality is that many of us have never opened these gifts. How would you feel if you gave somebody a gift and they refused it or simply put it on a shelf without opening it?

The gift is the Divine Life in us - Sanctifying Grace - and all that goes with it and all that that entails. Included therein would be the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit (check the ol’ Baltimore Catechism for the lists - they might be in the official CCC too, not sure). And as for these, there’s the ol’ rule of spirituality that we receive what we are disposed to receive.

Now I don’t think speaking in tounges as described in Acts and elsewhere in Scripture is promised to everyone…and certainly it is something given at the discretion of the Holy Spirit for the building up of the Body of Christ , the Church. As such, we should be able to look thoughout the history of the Church - including these recent times - and see when and if the Holy Spirit used tounges as such.

As for speaking or praying in tounges privately between the person and God - is that really what is happening at the big Charismatic “events” and masses? I’m not so sure. But…

…I did find a scripture passage where Paul refers to praying in tongues as communication between the person and God. Since I do not have my Bible with me, I will need to look it up when I get home. There are many other gifts besides the gift of tongues.

I’m heading out for a while - I’ll check back later on tonight. Look forward to it.

Peace in Christ,

DusitnsDad

 

[DebChris]

Deacon Ed,
I found the old thread and pasted my references to speaking in tongues here. The particular verse I was thinking about is 1 Cor 14:2.

4…Guiding the Church in the way of all truth and unifying her in communion and in the works of ministry, [the Holy Spirit] bestows on her varied heirachic and charismatic gifts; and he adorns her with his fruits. (Dogmatic Constition on the Church)

When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together…and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim. At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, abut they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
But others were scoffing, “They have had too much new wine.” (Acts 2:1,4,6,13)

While Peter was still speaking, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. (Acts 10: 44-46 Baptism of Cornelius)

There are different gifts but the same Spirit
…to another variety of tongues, to another interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit produces all these, distributing them individually to each person as He wishes. (1 Cor 12:1,10-11)

If I speak in human and angelic tongues, but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or clashing cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1-2)

For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit. (1 Cor 14:2)

4…a Church which speaks every language, understands and embraces all tongues in charity, and this overcomes the dispersion of Babel. (Decree on the Church’s Missionary Activity—with footnote references to Origen; St. John Chysostom; St. Augustine; St. Cyril; St Gregory the Great; St. Bede)

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Thank you. I had both of these highlighted in my Bible, but forgot about them.
Deacon Ed B

 

[natsclem]

in the Catholic Church, there is proper place for everything as long as you don’t tamper with the Faith and Morals we are obliged to accede and submit ourselves to obtain salvation.

Beyond knowledge and emotion, let’s not forget that Charity is above all without which nothing is pleasing to God.

if you are attending a Tridentine Mass, do not sing in tongues or wave hands. If you are in a charismatic prayer meeting or Mass, unleash it but do not overdo it lest you draw others’ attention to yourself. Above all, in everything we do, let’s glorify Christ’s name.

 

[DustinsDad]

If I speak in human and angelic tongues, but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or clashing cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1-2)

For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit. (1 Cor 14:2)

Okay - these are more along the lines of what I was looking for - Thanks! 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 is especially interesting. I’m surprised no one has brought this chapter up earlier!!!

After reading through the Chapter 14, I notice he seems to be treading quite cautiously on the matter of tounges…

1 Corinthians 14:12-20
So you also, forasmuch as you are zealous of spirits, seek to abound unto the edifying of the church. And therefore he that speaketh by a tongue, let him pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is without fruit. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing with the spirit, I will sing also with the understanding. Else if thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that holdeth the place of the unlearned say, Amen, to thy blessing? because he knoweth not what thou sayest. For thou indeed givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God I speak with all your tongues. But in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may instruct others also; than ten thousand words in a tongue. Brethren, do not become children in sense: but in malice be children, and in sense be perfect.

1 Corinthians 14:27
If any speak with a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course, and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God.

1 Corinthians 14:37-40
If any seem to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him know the things that I write to you, that they are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man know not, he shall not be known. Wherefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy; and forbid not to speak with tongues. But let all things be done decently, and according to order.

Now even if the gifts are legitimately from the Holy Spirit (and I’m sure this varies - some are from the Holy Spirit, some could be from the “other side”, and some could be from within the person’s psyche itself) - to place an emphasis on them is to contradict what Paul is saying here and how the Church has approached such things down through the ages.

And in that sense, I agree with what natsclem said above - and I’d echo what Paul wrote two chapters earlier:

1 Corinthians12:29-31
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But be zealous for the better gifts. And I show unto you yet a more excellent way.

He then goes on to talk about the gift of charity.

That’s all for now.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Does the Renewal call for all to have all of these gifts or just to be open to them?

I do not believe you have shown anything that contradicts the scripture you quoted.

 

[DebChris]

Does the Renewal call for all to have all of these gifts or just to be open to them?

I do not believe you have shown anything that contradicts the scripture you quoted.

The Renewal calls us to be open to the gifts. It is God who is the giver of the gifts. He gives those gifts as He chooses to whomever He chooses.
Dustin’s Dad mentioned sanctifying grace in an earlier post. This is a perfect opportunity to define what is meant using the United Stateds Catechism for Adults as a reference.
“Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us” (p.329 citing CCC2021-2023)
Charisms, such as healing, are special graces given to individuals for the common good of the Church (CCC2003). As such they would fall under Actual graces. Actual graces are “God’s intervention in our lives, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.”
It is the Holy Spirit who fills us with power, the grace to understand the Church’s teachings and the wisdom to see how they apply to our lives.
There is more to the Charismatic Renewal than praying in tongues. “The Holy Spirit is dynamic, transforming our bodies into temples of God and our souls into dwelling places for Christ” (p.103). The US Catechism for Adults focuses on the gift of courage that strengthened the apostles after Pentecost.
“Baptism in the Holy Spirit” is commonly used by Charismatic Catholics. The term comes from non-Catholic Pentecostals and is used by Catholics to describe the phenomenon we experience only because we don’t have a better word to use. In theological terms, for Catholics, this is not a new sacrament. Rather, it is a release of the gifts and graces that we have already received through the Sacraments of the Church. A priest who undergoes this Baptism in the Holy Spirit will, for instance, display greater zeal and courage in his preaching. It is awesome to see the gifts of Holy Orders released. I was a witness when this happened to now Archbishop Raymond Burke. For the rest of us, we are empowered by the Holy Spirit when the gifts we received at Baptism and Confirmation are released.

 

[deborahssong]

Good morning to all!

I have really been pondering what has been said. The scripture refernce of 1Cor 14 is exactly what I was looking for but had forgotten! Dustins dad…you used a word there that is excellent…cautious…Paul was being? HIs reason for that was because of the enormous abuse the Corinthian church seemed to act upon as far as the gifts were concerned. This was one of the reasons of Pauls letter to them. he was getting messages of their incorrect manner of walking in these gifts…plus their lifestyles as well. living that is other than their christian beliefs…they were sinning and walking in the flesh…a lot!
Paul dealt with this particular church in this way…he covered drunkenness, idolatry, lewdness, all sorts of other things which they were participating in. SIN!! he was reminding them of who they were and WHOM they served…and those things should not be, his words. If we take Paul’s letters literal as we should, then I would say that many churches today have a lot of growing up to do and leaders have an obligation to the Lord to clean up the churches in teaching proper christian lifestyle? agree? The word and Gods message hasnt changed!!! not one iotta!
It appears that church discipline is not used as much as we were instructed to do so in the early days of the church. yet there is as much corruption and such within, now, as there was then. A pastor said to me that not long ago that …well you have to give people some slack, you cant become all legalistic…hmmm. Who ever gave US the right to change the word of God…we must walk in love, but love doesnt make excuses for bad behavior and disobedience…Gods love corrects! and so must we…Paul talked about too much corruption in the church…fro we are a holy people…representing HIs Gods kingdom on earth…His command hasnt changed…
Anyway getting back to the gifts…I have been an active christian for 24 years. Some of the gifts I have received as my faith level rose. I know that God has given them for the edifying and the equipping of the saints…the people…for His glory! amen? As I said before I have seen the abuse of them and the lack of them. according to spiritual maturity and faith is how you will see them play out…here is what I know! I realize the catholic church has the endorsement if you will on this matter, to its members, that is they agree to it BECAUSE they know it is the word of God. But I dont think it is ok to wait to get their approval before I consider these things…does that make sense?
I will say this…my heart is no longer heavy about the catholic church…what I have learned from your posts and all of them, and what I am studying and have been has made me understand what you beleive and why. There is much rumor and garbage out there about catholics, as well as protestants. What a christian must do is FIND OUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE AND WHY! we must take responibility for our spiritual growth…geez did i say that? Responsibility is a big word and an even bigger action! Jesus HIMSELF said we are to walk in the Spirit and NOT the flesh…that means it CAN be done…cause He says so! That is LIFE! He said so…
How? He made it possible through His shedding His blood. He taught this before the cross! If He said it …it IS so…and I cannot imagine the church ever teaching anything else and if it does…the Word of God and the Didache says to stay far from anyone who teaches anything other than the gospel! Then I suggest we all go back and study the gospel! amen???
anyway what wonderful food for thought all of you have given this hungry for the truth traveler! God bless…

Debbie

 

[Margarite]

I have never been to one of these charismatic meetings, but 90% of all Catholic teens have. (at least the ones I have met) Anyways, these kids know next to nothing about the Church Christ started, they know so little, it is sad. They belong to these youth groups who claim that they are trying to get the youth involved and claim they are teaching these kids about God and still these kids know nothing.
I tried for over a year to be part of a youth group and the kids in this group were divided into three kinds, the ones who had “felt the Spirit,” the ones who were there just to talk with friends, and then me. The onces who had been “slain” spent 90% of the time just talking about boyfriends and football games witht the kids who had not been “slain.” The other 10% of the time they spent saying how great it was those tree times they had felt “posessed by the Spirit” and how nice it had been to speak in tongues and roll on the floor and cry like babies.
One boy at school kept trying to get me to go to his youth group where they had weekly get togethers at different group member’s homes and each time they “felt the Spirit.”
These are kids who could not tell you that Sunday was a day of obligation, or that confession is mandatory once a year. Don’t you think that if the “Spirit” really was “posessing” these kids, that he would fill them with knowledge and direct them to do great things for the Church? Dosn’t it seem strange that God would inspire people to speak gibberish and roll around on floors and cry? Is there anywhere in the bible where the Holy Ghost directs people to do these things? Is there any record of great saints rolling around, crying hysterically, making animal noises, speaking gibberish?
Why would God cause something so stupid to happen? He wouldn’t!

It is sad that people are following this trend. It is just a feel good session. People get together to go in a trance and do weird things in the name of God and then they wake up and feel better. This is not Godly, it has the stench of evil and I will never attend one of these things. And YES I am close minded when it comes to evil or things that I believe are evil.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I have never been to one of these charismatic meetings, but 90% of all Catholic teens have. (at least the ones I have met) Anyways, these kids know next to nothing about the Church Christ started, they know so little, it is sad. They belong to these youth groups who claim that they are trying to get the youth involved and claim they are teaching these kids about God and still these kids know nothing.
I tried for over a year to be part of a youth group and the kids in this group were divided into three kinds, the ones who had “felt the Spirit,” the ones who were there just to talk with friends, and then me. The onces who had been “slain” spent 90% of the time just talking about boyfriends and football games witht the kids who had not been “slain.” The other 10% of the time they spent saying how great it was those tree times they had felt “posessed by the Spirit” and how nice it had been to speak in tongues and roll on the floor and cry like babies.
One boy at school kept trying to get me to go to his youth group where they had weekly get togethers at different group member’s homes and each time they “felt the Spirit.”
These are kids who could not tell you that Sunday was a day of obligation, or that confession is mandatory once a year. Don’t you think that if the “Spirit” really was “posessing” these kids, that he would fill them with knowledge and direct them to do great things for the Church? Dosn’t it seem strange that God would inspire people to speak gibberish and roll around on floors and cry? Is there anywhere in the bible where the Holy Ghost directs people to do these things? Is there any record of great saints rolling around, crying hysterically, making animal noises, speaking gibberish?
Why would God cause something so stupid to happen? He wouldn’t!

It is sad that people are following this trend. It is just a feel good session. People get together to go in a trance and do weird things in the name of God and then they wake up and feel better. This is not Godly, it has the stench of evil and I will never attend one of these things. And YES I am close minded when it comes to evil or things that I believe are evil.

These groups you are hearing about do not sound like authentic parts of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

 

[Margarite]

These groups you are hearing about do not sound like authentic parts of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

May I ask who has the authority to say who is or who is not part of the “authentic Charismatic” movement? From what I have read there is no oganization that is in charge and there is no organization to this movement, so how can anyone say that they belong to the “authentic” part? It is more like a the hippie movement. Alot of people are doing it so it almost seems organized, but really it is just people hearing of what other people are doing and then trying to duplicate that. Since there is no organization each person can have their own diffinition of what it all means.
This is dangerous. This is what protestantism is and we do not want thousands of people becoming protestants because of this movement, that would be tragic.

 

[DebChris]

Sometimes we need to take a step back and separate the Charismatic Renewal from issues of catechesis. In Baptism we are born into Christ. We become a part of the Body of Christ, the Church. That Baptism is only a beginning to our life. A baby still needs to be taught, to learn the daily expectations of the family. This issue is different than becoming a charismatic or a pentecostal. As stated on the ICCS website posted earlier, we still need to grow and mature in our faith. When talking about teenagers, we also need to separate the “emotional experience” from normal teenage attitudes and discussions. Those discussions, at least at that age are part of what it means to be fully alive. It is the same way that an adult will focus on his/her work or family concerns.
There is not a single human person to whom the growth and organization of the Charismatic Renewal can be attributed. We can talk about how St. Dominic, St. Louis de Montfort, and other leaders in the Church encouraged the spread of the rosary. This lack of formal leadership within the Charismatic Renewal is a good thing. No one person or group of persons can take credit.
How do we know who is or is not a member of the Charismatic Renewal? That is a good question. Each of us is called to live authentically the life to which Christ has called us. For some this means taking a public stand on controversial issues. For others it is a quiet life lived in the seclusion of a monastery. The individual with charismatic gifts may be sitting in the pew with you at Mass. He or she may be single or married. They are catechists, lectors, and others quietly involved the different ministries of your parish.
Some Charismatic Catholics live close enough to attend weekly intercessory prayer groups. Others pray quietly within their own homes. The only common characteristic is the desire to grow in love and service to God and one another.

 

[DustinsDad]

I have never been to one of these charismatic meetings, but 90% of all Catholic teens have. (at least the ones I have met) Anyways, these kids know next to nothing about the Church Christ started, they know so little, it is sad. They belong to these youth groups who claim that they are trying to get the youth involved and claim they are teaching these kids about God and still these kids know nothing.

I agree 100% from what I’ve seen and experieced myself - and this is in my own extended family and it hits close to home. And the truth of the matter is if the foks “in charge” would actually give the kids the “meat and potatoes” of the faith, these kids would soak it up like a sponge - they are starving for it…for a reason and a chance to understand and appreciate to live all the awesomeness of the Truth.

…People get together to go in a trance and do weird things in the name of God and then they wake up and feel better. This is not Godly, it has the stench of evil and I will never attend one of these things. And YES I am close minded when it comes to evil or things that I believe are evil.

I have to say I agree with you again - as I said before, the Devil can and does “ape” God in order to deceive souls.

For every soul that walks away from these sorts of experiences thinking the Church is not what it says it is - or that all people are on their own “legitimate” paths to God in all the various denominations, if they walk away talking and talking and talking about the experience itself and yet have not a clue as to what the Sacraments are, and what they do and down play them as secondary to their experience, why Our Lord suffered and died on the cross for us, what is the nature and purpose and power of the Church He established and why it’s normatively necessary to be a visible member thereof - then I’m sorry, I’ve got to say no - I won’t participate and I wouldn’t allow my son to. I wold say in such cases, what’s going on is either not of God or is a gift from Him being abused to the detriment of the eternal souls of many people.

And the most I can gather from Scripture on the whole deal is that tounges shouldn’t be forbidden, but it does prescribe a manner in which they are to be treated with caution and it doesn’t look a thing like what I’ve seen reported from the big conferences.

I mean this…(cf 1 Corinthians 14)
But in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may instruct others also; than ten thousand words in a tongue. Brethren, do not become children in sense: but in malice be children, and in sense be perfect**…If any speak with a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course, and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God…** If any seem to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him know the things that I write to you, that they are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man know not, he shall not be known. Wherefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy; and forbid not to speak with tongues. But let all things be done decently, and according to order.

Is a far cry from this…It was Saturday night at Franciscan University of Steubenville and all around the gymnasium, bodies were dropping to the floor. Luis Entrialgo, a married lay-deacon from Cuba, had just concluded a Protestant-styled “healing” service, and the slain-in-the-spirit session immediately followed. Loud music throbbed in hypnotic rhythm from the rock’n’roll “worship band”, lay-people laid hands on other lay-people, limp bodies fell backwards ending face-up on the floor, participants stepped around bodies to make their way down side aisles,** a priest prayed in “tongues” over the microphone, “sha-na-la-sha-na-la-sha-na-la-sha-na-la, sha-na-la, thank You, Jesus**!” It was the grand finale of the day…
(Charismatic Weekend at Stuebenville)

And now that we see somethign in Scirpture dealing with “personal” tounges - is there anything in there about the “slain in the Spirit” phenomena?

Also, this article “Catholic" Pentecostalism: Grown in the Garden of Heresy” also raises serious questions about the nature and origins of the movement itself. Aside from personally attacking the author (which I’m not interested in), would any Charismatic pursuaded person take a moment or two to read through it and help me to understand the Charismatic response to such allegations.

Thanks,

and Peace in Christ,

DusitnsDad.

 

[DustinsDad]

May I ask who has the authority to say who is or who is not part of the “authentic Charismatic” movement? From what I have read there is no oganization that is in charge and there is no organization to this movement, so how can anyone say that they belong to the “authentic” part? It is more like a the hippie movement. Alot of people are doing it so it almost seems organized, but really it is just people hearing of what other people are doing and then trying to duplicate that. Since there is no organization each person can have their own diffinition of what it all means.
This is dangerous. This is what protestantism is and we do not want thousands of people becoming protestants because of this movement, that would be tragic.

Bingo. Normally, even apart from a central authority, when we want to understand some movement and their authenticity, we hold up what is being taught and preached up to the light of Apostolic Tradition - what has been taught and preached and handed down through the ages. And here is where the Charismatic movement runs into, eh, trouble.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Most diocese have a Charismatic Center. They give the Life in the Spirit seminars and mentor new groups. Yes, there is an official organization. If you say there is not, then you have not looked into it very deeply. The meetings are structured, though they may vary slightly. It is not just anyone doing their own thing. Follow through with your diocesan group and have your eyes opened. We do not seek the gifts of the Spirit, the Spirit gives the gifts to those whom he wills. The gifts are not for pompas, prideful show, but are exercised in deep prayer and praise.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Eilish_Maura]

May I ask who has the authority to say who is or who is not part of the “authentic Charismatic” movement? From what I have read there is no oganization that is in charge and there is no organization to this movement, so how can anyone say that they belong to the “authentic” part? It is more like a the hippie movement. Alot of people are doing it so it almost seems organized, but really it is just people hearing of what other people are doing and then trying to duplicate that. Since there is no organization each person can have their own diffinition of what it all means.
This is dangerous. This is what protestantism is and we do not want thousands of people becoming protestants because of this movement, that would be tragic.

1. you can check with your diocese if these youth groups are on the level and are actually part of the Renewal as recognized by it
2. you can check with folks who have been part of authentic groups within the Catholic Charismatic Renewal

Having been to groups that are listed in with my diocese I can tell you these sound a bit queer and do not represent what really happens.

 

[DustinsDad]

The Renewal calls us to be open to the gifts. It is God who is the giver of the gifts. He gives those gifts as He chooses to whomever He chooses.

Yes - but designing specific organizations and specific events in order to promote a charism (tounges) that* specifically* we are told not to promote or highlight - and always in the absence of the necessary charism of interpreters that we are told must be present - is something that is entirely novel and foreign to the Church. We’ve got folks doing this over microphones for crying out loud -** leading the prayer** service in tounges that the Word of God specifically says to keep silent if there is no interpreter there!

It’s is one thing to have a prayer meeting where if one gets the gift of tounges and silently and without drawing attention or commotion prays in that way and as such it is not prohibited - yet it’s another where the whole focus of the event is to experience such phenomena - and if you don’t think people are looking or asking for it, I think you are kidding yoruself.

Further, no one has addressed the whole “slain in the Spirit” thing that is just plain scary and is a “whole 'nuther ball of wax” than silently and peacefully praying in tounges. It’s straight out of the Penticostal heretical sect and nowhere to be found in what was handed down to us through the ages from the Apostles and their successors. If I am wrong on this, please show me where I’m wrong. Please.

Dustin’s Dad mentioned sanctifying grace in an earlier post. This is a perfect opportunity to define what is meant using the United Stateds Catechism for Adults as a reference.
“Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us” (p.329 citing CCC2021-2023)
Charisms, such as healing, are special graces given to individuals for the common good of the Church (CCC2003).

I don’t think anyone has a problem believing in miraculous healings - such has always been a part of the Church.

There is more to the Charismatic Renewal than praying in tongues.

Agreed.

“The Holy Spirit is dynamic, transforming our bodies into temples of God and our souls into dwelling places for Christ” (p.103). The US Catechism for Adults focuses on the gift of courage that strengthened the apostles after Pentecost.

Absolutely - but this has nothing to do with the Charismatic movement in particular and nothing to do with specific charisms. This is the power of the Holy Spirit given to Christians. Period. This happens within the context of the Sacramental life of the Church.

“Baptism in the Holy Spirit” is commonly used by Charismatic Catholics. The term comes from non-Catholic Pentecostals and is used by Catholics to describe the phenomenon we experience only because we don’t have a better word to use. In theological terms, for Catholics, this is not a new sacrament. Rather, it is a release of the gifts and graces that we have already received through the Sacraments of the Church.

That sounds all well and good - but does the fact that the phenomena seems to have been born in a heretical protestant sect concern you at all?

And what is the Biblical, theological, Magisterial and historical evidence for such phenomena? Where was it for the last 2000 years? Why is the exact same thing so abundant in heretical groups cut off from the Sacramental life of the Church? See: youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

A priest who undergoes this Baptism in the Holy Spirit will, for instance, display greater zeal and courage in his preaching. It is awesome to see the gifts of Holy Orders released. I was a witness when this happened to now Archbishop Raymond Burke.

Woah - now you’ve got my attention! Details please!

For the rest of us, we are empowered by the Holy Spirit when the gifts we received at Baptism and Confirmation are released.

I would say for all of us - and it doesn’t depend or is necessarily tied in with such external phenomena. The matter and form of the Sacrament itself is the external that signifies what is happening inside. Now if and when the Holy Spirit does something extrordinary in some folks lives - which I know happens - that’s one thing. Having conventions and entire movements geared toward such phenomena is quite another.

And I’d say again - be very, very careful.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[deborahssong]

Wow!

Great postings! I agree with much of what has been said…however I am going to take it back to scripture. It obviously was a serious problem with Corinthian church and was the very reason for Paul to address it the way he did. (1 Cor chap 12-14.?) The renewal that I have visited locally didnt behave in the manner in which the Steubenville meeting did. Please allow me to say again I have been in meetings that I saw much abuse and I have been in meetings that the power of God was released in a mighty way. Actually it appears that today hasnt changed much since the early chruch! However we are given the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us into all truth…Jesus’ own words. Now that would be for all of us male or female…doesnt matter who! we have been given by the power of God to be able to descern the difference between false and real!
DebChris…great words! Deacon Ed B…great words! I know there is a lot of abuse in this area of the church, I know this…as I have said before I have witnessed this before…however that doesnt change what I know to be truth. Paul said it best…not to deny these gifts and not to stop them…There is a council within each city and that council answers to a national council all headed by the direction of the vatican…so this is not just a group of people heading off on their own
Wherever Jesus went lives were changed forever! People were healed, people had demons driven from them, people received their sight,(spiritual and physical) their hearing. People were changed forever and that is the key…what did Jesus say and do? There were great moves of God wherever He was! and IS! He now lives within each of us and to deny His power would be most devastating to us! Mark 11Jesus uses the fig tree as a story to teach these apostles about faith. How powerful is that gospel story! and it is meant for us today! The lesson of faith…Jesus said…IF ONLY YOU BELIEVE…
Just as there were some serious abuses in the catholic chuch and others down through the centuries, there stilll is…however our focus is not to be on them…it is to be on the mighty hand of a living God who loved us so much that He gave His only Begotten Son, to us, to redeem us to Himself, to have fellowship with us AGAIN…The death and resurrectioon of Jesus is just the beginning…He has given us so much more even than that…a way to expereince abundant life here! Jesus said so…I have come that you may have life and life MORE abundantly! I can honestly say that my life has been so full and God has so blessed me in ways that would take to long to explain…why? Because I have believed and RECEIVED what He says…The word of God is my diviiding line and it appears that the early chruch fathers lived the same way…according to the word of God! God bless all…remember we serve a suprenatural God…meaning above the natural…so His work will not always be received however He is for all mankind who will receive Him! we have the choice…He created us with that right…To God be the glory!

Deborah

 

[Eilish_Maura]

One of the greatest things I learned in my short time with the Renewal is praise as prayer.

In times of struggle it puts the story of Job in a whole new light.

And priests who practice this form of prayer are amazing in a very hard to describe way.

 

[Alexios]

I don’t have time to post a long entry right now, but just really quick want to say that we need to differentiate between charismatic activity within the Mass (and other liturgical services) and charismatic activity outside of liturgical services. It’s pretty clear the former really has no place in the Catholic Church whereas the second is up for more debate.