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wardrandolph
Guest
The book:New Outpourings of thr Spirit is availible from Barnes and Noble for $14.95. Publisher=Ignatius Press,ISBN#9781586171810.Author=Joseoh Ratzinger.
- Status
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bpbasilphx
Guest
even though she called our scholarly books and confessions "heretical"
I wonder if she has actually read any of them. Iād be not.
I wonder if she has actually read any of them. Iād be not.
M
Margarite
Guest
Here is a good piece by the Orthodox on this, but one could simply replace the word āOrthodoxā in this post with "Catholic (and perhaps āstandingā with ākneelingā) and get the same result.
orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/charmov.aspx
Amazing and perfect.
Many of us who are against the charismatic movement are not quite sure why, but we have this deep knowledge that it is evil. This article explains the reasoning that we were unable to put into words. We knew that the CM only showed up in the most liberal parishes, we knew that the people participating in the CM were those who knew next to nothing about their faith, we knew that the priests who participated were often those very priests who spoke herecy or who were involved in scandal. We knew all this, but we could not exactly tie these signs of evil to the CM. This article does a perfect job of doing this.
I am not saying that people in the CM are evil, just ignorant. The movement is evil, but most of the people in it are just plain ignorant. Some of the leaders are the evil ones and that is why I would not participate.
I mentioned a youth group in Vegas that does this CM stuff, but I cannot remember the name for the life of me. I have asked a few friends if they can give me the name, but they are not part of the group and so they may not remember.
Lastly, this is just for you fellow anti-CMs Do you notice how scatterbrained the CM peopleās posts are. It is very hard for me to understand or follow their posts.
orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/charmov.aspx
Amazing and perfect.
Many of us who are against the charismatic movement are not quite sure why, but we have this deep knowledge that it is evil. This article explains the reasoning that we were unable to put into words. We knew that the CM only showed up in the most liberal parishes, we knew that the people participating in the CM were those who knew next to nothing about their faith, we knew that the priests who participated were often those very priests who spoke herecy or who were involved in scandal. We knew all this, but we could not exactly tie these signs of evil to the CM. This article does a perfect job of doing this.
I am not saying that people in the CM are evil, just ignorant. The movement is evil, but most of the people in it are just plain ignorant. Some of the leaders are the evil ones and that is why I would not participate.
I mentioned a youth group in Vegas that does this CM stuff, but I cannot remember the name for the life of me. I have asked a few friends if they can give me the name, but they are not part of the group and so they may not remember.
Lastly, this is just for you fellow anti-CMs Do you notice how scatterbrained the CM peopleās posts are. It is very hard for me to understand or follow their posts.
E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
The CATHOLIC Charismatic Renewal is NOT evil.
If you canāt remember the name of the youth group how can you claim they are Catholic?
If you canāt remember the name of the youth group how can you claim they are Catholic?
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
If the Charismatic movement is evil, then why is it that members of the Magisterium support it. Even Pope John Paul II supported it. There were meetings of world wide representatives of the movement held in Rome at Castelgondolfo. The popes retreat master Fr. Cantelamesa also addressed them and highly supports them. Did the Holy Spirit get it wrong in his guidance of the Magisterium. I would think you had better rethink your stand. To say you do not understand it is one thing. To say it is evil is something else entirely.
Deacon Ed B
Deacon Ed B
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Margarite
Guest
That is a silly response. I know for a fact that it is a Catholic international youth group, I just could never quite remember the name. I was only told about it by a number of friends who were part of it, I never participated, because I would not participate in that stuff.
I am sure that you do not believe it to be evil, but I am also sure that protestants believe their religion to be right and I am also sure that no person who has an abortion belives it to be evil, but you are all wrong. I can know that these things are wrong without ever participating in them. I have seen the fruits and the fruits are not good. How much more beautiful, fulfilling, beneficial would be the result if these people who put so much time and effort into the CM would put this energy into learning about the religion that has been around since Christ, the one that countless numbers of saints have learned from namely the Roman Catholic Church. It is sad that Vatican II was so misunderstood so as to cause the lost to lead the lost into something as obviously wrong and counter-tradition as the CM.
Did you read the attached article? Have you ever read the story of a saint who did the stuff that the CM does?
I am sure that you do not believe it to be evil, but I am also sure that protestants believe their religion to be right and I am also sure that no person who has an abortion belives it to be evil, but you are all wrong. I can know that these things are wrong without ever participating in them. I have seen the fruits and the fruits are not good. How much more beautiful, fulfilling, beneficial would be the result if these people who put so much time and effort into the CM would put this energy into learning about the religion that has been around since Christ, the one that countless numbers of saints have learned from namely the Roman Catholic Church. It is sad that Vatican II was so misunderstood so as to cause the lost to lead the lost into something as obviously wrong and counter-tradition as the CM.
Did you read the attached article? Have you ever read the story of a saint who did the stuff that the CM does?
M
Margarite
Guest
Well, I donāt know about the popeās retreat master. Could you show me where our previous pope supported this?
There are many things that Rome has OKed that I think are wrong and that I believe have hurt the Church almost beyond repair. Such as altar girls, communion on the hand, choirs up front, liberal hymns, the disappearance of the TLM, and many more things that have hurt the Church so much. Just because it was OKed by Rome does not mean that I must believe it to be good unless Rome states it as a fact of our faith.
Two of the most liberal men in my parish are the two deacons. I am astounded at how little they know about their faith and how little respect they hold for Our Lord. So just because they are people who are trying to do the right thing, it does not mean that they are doing the right thing. It is a very sad situation.
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deborahssong
Guest
Amen Deacon Ed B! Could not have said it better myself! Now I am confused. Did the post about not reading this book and calling catholicism hereticalā¦was that for me? BY the way there have been some actions by the leaders of the catholic church down thru the ages that were heretical!! plain and simpleā¦ Plus I would disagree with some of what I have read and have voiced this yet I would never call you who believe otherwise ignorant or scattrebrained? actually scriptrue calls those who do not beleive what He saysā¦foolsā¦ Come onā¦remember I am speaking from my own experincesā¦Marguarite, I am healed, whole and so much better in many ways and why? Because I believed what I was taught and receivedā¦and you are degrading the actions of the vatican by calling all of those involved with the renewal ignorant and scatter brainedā¦
The vatican I am sure have checked out all of the scriputral content before okaying itā¦at least I would hope soā¦however this is my take dear ladyā¦that any who do not accept this and call it evil? are saying that we do not know the differenceā¦trust me I know the difference between evil and God. Just remember before you start saying those harsh words, there is much evil in the church and it isnt all charismaticsā¦again I will say we are trying to explain the power of God in moving in HIs peopleā¦and He does! remember Paul thought that christians were evil in what they were doing so he set out as a religious man to destroy themā¦when lo and behold Jesus stopped him in his tracksā¦there is such a thing as spiritual eyes being blindedā¦hmmmm.
Deacon Ed B. I am learning much about allowing the Holy Spirit to keep my mouth in check and make sure I am saying things correctly. I desire to know the truthā¦and what I share are my experiencesā¦and I am looking to learn more truth and my opinions are subject toā¦ changeā¦ as I have my own eyes enlightened. Jesus said that he was sending the Holy Spirit to guide usā¦so that means He will when we ask Him to! and He will nudge our hearts when we are headed in the wrong wayā¦His word says soā¦and I believe thatā¦no matter what! On that note God Bless all who shareā¦
Deborah
Philippians 4;13
The vatican I am sure have checked out all of the scriputral content before okaying itā¦at least I would hope soā¦however this is my take dear ladyā¦that any who do not accept this and call it evil? are saying that we do not know the differenceā¦trust me I know the difference between evil and God. Just remember before you start saying those harsh words, there is much evil in the church and it isnt all charismaticsā¦again I will say we are trying to explain the power of God in moving in HIs peopleā¦and He does! remember Paul thought that christians were evil in what they were doing so he set out as a religious man to destroy themā¦when lo and behold Jesus stopped him in his tracksā¦there is such a thing as spiritual eyes being blindedā¦hmmmm.
Deacon Ed B. I am learning much about allowing the Holy Spirit to keep my mouth in check and make sure I am saying things correctly. I desire to know the truthā¦and what I share are my experiencesā¦and I am looking to learn more truth and my opinions are subject toā¦ changeā¦ as I have my own eyes enlightened. Jesus said that he was sending the Holy Spirit to guide usā¦so that means He will when we ask Him to! and He will nudge our hearts when we are headed in the wrong wayā¦His word says soā¦and I believe thatā¦no matter what! On that note God Bless all who shareā¦
Deborah
Philippians 4;13
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
IF it is Catholic then your diocese would know about it.That is a silly response. I know for a fact that it is a Catholic international youth group, I just could never quite remember the name. I was only told about it by a number of friends who were part of it, I never participated, because I would not participate in that stuff.
I am sure that you do not believe it to be evil, but I am also sure that protestants believe their religion to be right and I am also sure that no person who has an abortion belives it to be evil, but you are all wrong. I can know that these things are wrong without ever participating in them. I have seen the fruits and the fruits are not good. How much more beautiful, fulfilling, beneficial would be the result if these people who put so much time and effort into the CM would put this energy into learning about the religion that has been around since Christ, the one that countless numbers of saints have learned from namely the Roman Catholic Church. It is sad that Vatican II was so misunderstood so as to cause the lost to lead the lost into something as obviously wrong and counter-tradition as the CM.
Did you read the attached article? Have you ever read the story of a saint who did the stuff that the CM does?
Have you considered checking with them?
Asking them if it is evil or not??
E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
I quoted an answer from a CAF apologist - if it was evil or contrary to anything in the Church one would think HE would give a heads up about it.
E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
I would think that if it is oked by Rome that one would be cautious about labeling it evil.Well, I donāt know about the popeās retreat master. Could you show me where our previous pope supported this?
There are many things that Rome has OKed that I think are wrong and that I believe have hurt the Church almost beyond repair. Such as altar girls, communion on the hand, choirs up front, liberal hymns, the disappearance of the TLM, and many more things that have hurt the Church so much. Just because it was OKed by Rome does not mean that I must believe it to be good unless Rome states it as a fact of our faith.
Two of the most liberal men in my parish are the two deacons. I am astounded at how little they know about their faith and how little respect they hold for Our Lord. So just because they are people who are trying to do the right thing, it does not mean that they are doing the right thing. It is a very sad situation.
D
deborahssong
Guest
To Margauriteā¦I have been told here that I seemed a bit angryā¦it osunds lik emyou are htere as well. HOwever I am going to say this i loev ny dear sister in Yehsuaā¦Do you beleive scripture as the word of God? Is so then my dear you cannot deny its truth! by the way the ealry church was frist JEWISHā¦not catholicā¦they did not give up their practicesā¦ans it was changed later by GENTILES. In Matghew chap 5;vs 17-20ā¦Jesus affirmed that anyone who changes the lawā¦the prophetsā¦what He knew to be true according ot HIs Jewish walkā¦read that.
Everything was initially in Aramaic, then Hebrew, then Greek, then Englishā¦The catholic church is not ignorant fro allowing the Holy Spirit to lead them futuristicā¦If we serve jesus we will alwasy be subjetc to changeā¦He does not want us to stay the sameā¦yes the word should never change and the message as well, but we must be willing to accept Gods movesā¦and yes He does move from glory to glory! Your explanation sounds so dreary and hardā¦knowing Jesus changes lives forever and there should be joy in that. A church service should have joy in it as wellā¦a celebration you might sayā¦my goodness, He changes livesā¦are you aware that Psalms speaks of cymbals, music with praise, tambourines, and suchā¦give a joyful noise in churchā¦in synagogue first then churchā¦
I pray that you receive as well, Gods truth about this subjectā¦if I were so bent on NOT receiving then what else can be said to convince anyoneā¦to what avail would it be? Thanks again and God Bless all ā¦as I am learning muchā¦
Deborah
Everything was initially in Aramaic, then Hebrew, then Greek, then Englishā¦The catholic church is not ignorant fro allowing the Holy Spirit to lead them futuristicā¦If we serve jesus we will alwasy be subjetc to changeā¦He does not want us to stay the sameā¦yes the word should never change and the message as well, but we must be willing to accept Gods movesā¦and yes He does move from glory to glory! Your explanation sounds so dreary and hardā¦knowing Jesus changes lives forever and there should be joy in that. A church service should have joy in it as wellā¦a celebration you might sayā¦my goodness, He changes livesā¦are you aware that Psalms speaks of cymbals, music with praise, tambourines, and suchā¦give a joyful noise in churchā¦in synagogue first then churchā¦
I pray that you receive as well, Gods truth about this subjectā¦if I were so bent on NOT receiving then what else can be said to convince anyoneā¦to what avail would it be? Thanks again and God Bless all ā¦as I am learning muchā¦
Deborah
M
Margarite
Guest
Deborah, please donāt think me mean, but please read what you wrote and tell me that it is easy to understand.
I mean you donāt finish your sentences and you keep changing direction mid sentence. It is soooooooooo confusing. I probably should not have used the word scatterbrained, it is just so hard to understand you.
Yes, I believe that many people in the Church are ignorant. Mostly this ignorance is no fault of their own, but rather the fault of their parents. I mean how many teens are going to learn about Christ and the Church on their own without parental supervision? Not many. That is why God gave us parents, and many parents are failing their children, just as their parents failed them. It is sad. Out of all this ignorance, people still retain this knowledge that they need God, but the Church is in turmoil and the leaders of the Church know very little of the Church so those looking for guidance have trouble finding it in the Church. That is why this CM started, people found something that made them feel good in a protestant church and then they brought it with them into the Church and other searching people found those people and so it grew. I am the first to say that I know nothing about the great stores of knowledge that the Church holds, but I must also say without pride except in my parents, that I know more about the faith than most adults and many priests and deacons. I have learned all that I know from my parents and they have learned what they know from some very good and holy priests, from reading constantly and studying the Churchās teachings, from studying tradition, from studying the lives of the saints and from even more study. I am very blessed to have this gift of knowledge, but at the same time it is a burden.
D
deborahssong
Guest
Margaurite,
I am sorry as well, but you dosound meanā¦I am sorry that you donot understand meā¦yet Deacon E B has and others we wellā¦and that could bethe issueā¦I am speakng from experinces and my own studies.and spiirtually, when I hear that you are coming from a religion stanceā¦I just heard this scripture spoken againā¦Galatians 5:26-28ā¦we are to celebrate with one another and you sound as though you think that catholics are the only ones with the true answers. Yet you are hard on the very foundation you claim you serveā¦I am not confusingā¦it sounds like to me there are some issues in your way of thinking as wellā¦We are told to renew our mindsā¦to transform our lives by the renewing of our mindsā¦I understand that so well as my mind was so blinded for many yearsā¦
It sounds as though you are an educator and someone who is strong in correct English, using broken sentences , and suchā¦I am not. I am sorry I seem confsuing to youā¦May God Bless you dear lady in your own search for truthā¦
Deborah
I am sorry as well, but you dosound meanā¦I am sorry that you donot understand meā¦yet Deacon E B has and others we wellā¦and that could bethe issueā¦I am speakng from experinces and my own studies.and spiirtually, when I hear that you are coming from a religion stanceā¦I just heard this scripture spoken againā¦Galatians 5:26-28ā¦we are to celebrate with one another and you sound as though you think that catholics are the only ones with the true answers. Yet you are hard on the very foundation you claim you serveā¦I am not confusingā¦it sounds like to me there are some issues in your way of thinking as wellā¦We are told to renew our mindsā¦to transform our lives by the renewing of our mindsā¦I understand that so well as my mind was so blinded for many yearsā¦
It sounds as though you are an educator and someone who is strong in correct English, using broken sentences , and suchā¦I am not. I am sorry I seem confsuing to youā¦May God Bless you dear lady in your own search for truthā¦
Deborah
M
Margarite
Guest
Deborah,
You see, I believe that I have the truth and I believe that I have the only truth. I did not realize that you were not Catholic.
If I had I would have stated my beliefs in a way that showed my openess for discussion. I truely do not mean to sound mean, :nope: it is just that I enjoy this discussion very much and it is hard for me to respond to you when I do not understand.:yup: Maybe it is my faultā¦
Anyways, you mention, me being unopen to the gifts of the Holy Ghost, I am not. I pray that I will receive them and that I will be able to accept and use them, but I have trouble beliving that so many thousands of people suddenly in the past 20 years, have felt the Holy Ghost in a way that has never been experienced before. I think it strange that for nearly 2000 years the Holy Ghost would remain virtually silent and then suddenly start making people do these things.
Even if what you say of the apostles is true, why would the Holy Ghost wait 2000 years to let the faithful experience the 7 gifts in that way agian. Please explain this reasoning.
You see, I believe that I have the truth and I believe that I have the only truth. I did not realize that you were not Catholic.
If I had I would have stated my beliefs in a way that showed my openess for discussion. I truely do not mean to sound mean, :nope: it is just that I enjoy this discussion very much and it is hard for me to respond to you when I do not understand.:yup: Maybe it is my faultā¦Anyways, you mention, me being unopen to the gifts of the Holy Ghost, I am not. I pray that I will receive them and that I will be able to accept and use them, but I have trouble beliving that so many thousands of people suddenly in the past 20 years, have felt the Holy Ghost in a way that has never been experienced before. I think it strange that for nearly 2000 years the Holy Ghost would remain virtually silent and then suddenly start making people do these things.
Even if what you say of the apostles is true, why would the Holy Ghost wait 2000 years to let the faithful experience the 7 gifts in that way agian. Please explain this reasoning.
M
Miles_Mariae
Guest
Itās alright, weāve all been there, some at a younger age than others. I think I was inā¦ first or second grade when all this finally clicked for me.
Anyway, these should help:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_%28linguistics%29
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_%28grammar%29
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_(grammar
Hereās a very important one:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuation
Let me know if you have trouble with them.
D
DebChris
Guest
Pentecostal churches were born from the revivals of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. These revivals generally took place in rural areas where the people were mostly illiterate. When individuals at these revivals began to speak in tongues, the phenomenom was not accepted by the mainstream non-Catholic denominations from which the preachers came. As a result, the preachers and their followers were excommunicated. The Pentecostal Holiness Church and the Assembly of God were born. These churches have neither the richness nor the Tradition of the Catholic Church. Oftentimes they have a āonce saved, always savedā mentality and the only sure sign of salvation is the outward manifestation of the charisms, in particular the gift of tongues.
What makes the Catholic Charismatic Renewal different is the immediate submission to the magisterium. It does not take away the need for the Sacraments. Rather there is an intense growing hunger for the Sacraments. There is quicker conviction of sin which leads to the confessional and an overwhelming desire for that source and summit of our faith, the Eucharist. Sanctification is a lifelong process. The receipt of actual graces, of charisms, can occur at any point along the way. The Holy See has blessed the Charismatic Renewal for what it is, a movement of the Holy Spirit and not of man. The charisms may be released spontaneously. More often this release occurs after the laying on of hands by other Charismatics Where two or more are gathered. Words fall short when it comes to describing the experience whether that experience is witnessed or experienced. As scripture says, it is a peace beyond understanding. Raymond Burke was elevated to diocesan bishop shortly after being prayed for.
If Charismatics gather it is because we do not live in isolation. We need one otherās support. Ours is a communal Church. During the conferences there are teachings on what it means to walk in the Spirit. One I remember included the analogy of a limousine with chauffeurs standing by. Why does the chauffeur wear a cap? To show that he is not the owner of the car. Each of us needs to be ready for Godās purpose, whatever that is, whenever he chooses to use us. As the John the Baptist said, āI must decrease that He might increase.ā
FIRE rallies mentioned in an earlier post focus on Faith, Intercessory Prayer, Repentence, and Evangelization. These are talks on what it means to walk in faith and to pray for one another. There is ample opportunity for confession. Evangelization takes place everyday as we live our lives as God calls each of us to live. Anybody can attend these conferences and rallies. Nobody asks for a membership card.
What makes the Catholic Charismatic Renewal different is the immediate submission to the magisterium. It does not take away the need for the Sacraments. Rather there is an intense growing hunger for the Sacraments. There is quicker conviction of sin which leads to the confessional and an overwhelming desire for that source and summit of our faith, the Eucharist. Sanctification is a lifelong process. The receipt of actual graces, of charisms, can occur at any point along the way. The Holy See has blessed the Charismatic Renewal for what it is, a movement of the Holy Spirit and not of man. The charisms may be released spontaneously. More often this release occurs after the laying on of hands by other Charismatics Where two or more are gathered. Words fall short when it comes to describing the experience whether that experience is witnessed or experienced. As scripture says, it is a peace beyond understanding. Raymond Burke was elevated to diocesan bishop shortly after being prayed for.
If Charismatics gather it is because we do not live in isolation. We need one otherās support. Ours is a communal Church. During the conferences there are teachings on what it means to walk in the Spirit. One I remember included the analogy of a limousine with chauffeurs standing by. Why does the chauffeur wear a cap? To show that he is not the owner of the car. Each of us needs to be ready for Godās purpose, whatever that is, whenever he chooses to use us. As the John the Baptist said, āI must decrease that He might increase.ā
FIRE rallies mentioned in an earlier post focus on Faith, Intercessory Prayer, Repentence, and Evangelization. These are talks on what it means to walk in faith and to pray for one another. There is ample opportunity for confession. Evangelization takes place everyday as we live our lives as God calls each of us to live. Anybody can attend these conferences and rallies. Nobody asks for a membership card.
E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
Thank you for this post!
D
DebChris
Guest
It is to God that we offer our sacrifice of praise.
D
deborahssong
Guest
Margaurite,
Deborah
Code:
I am baffled.....you keep sayimg you do not understand what I am saying?..........yet it appears the others do....and they respond in unison to that as well, or it appears so. Yesterday i had every intention on NOT posting any longer to you.......no, I wasnt offended at all, I chooose NOT to be, as I do not want to stifle my walk with Jesus.....however after much thought I will say this.....logical...trying to explain something so that it makes sense to the natural mind.......well I dont think we can. Oh we can explain to you what we are all trying to say about the SUPER natural power of God.. but you have refused to receive, you have made that perfectly clear..........therefore why should I post or any of us post any farther our beliefs, our experinces or our knowledge in the Lord......when a heart is closed to something...........
I was reading a book written by a catholic lay minister and he said it best. You cannot explain the supernatural......and God is! He moves still today just like He did in the book of Acts and actually all through scripture. From my understanding the church "ALWAYS" backs up scripture..............and when they stop? Then they are operating under a different title......not the church of Jesus Christ. Let me ask this question..do you believe scripture? Such as Mark 16....lay hands on the sick, cast out demons,,,,and such..... anyway ALL of my posts have been to support the power of the Holy Spirit alive and well today in the gifts and the ministry itself. Now as I have said before yes there is abuse of these......of course there is, and there was then in Paul's time, however they did not cease because some abused them. In my book it is just as heartbreaking to be close minded as it is to abuse the gifts. Just how I see this.
As I have said I am studying a great deal right now and I am learning why catholics believe what they believe...so far I am not fully convinced , however I am more educated about what the church believes, and it is beginning to put my heart at peace about a lot of the myths about the church...that arent so ... and I am experiencing Gods presence profoundly right now...as I search for truth! I just want to make the right decision about church...and yes I WAS raised catholic and hung out with the sisters while I grew up and loved it! However what I am studying right now I did not know and it really does pay to check out what we beleive...as all of you have lead me to do .so. Paul and Peter remind us ot do just that.....
At this point I am not sure where I am headed in finding a church.......that is where I am suppose to be! However I am sure that I am being guided by His Spirit in this and I desire to be where faith is great........and people believe all of what God says oral or written.....God Bless...- Status