Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[DebChris]

An earlier post made mention of Life in the Spirit Seminars. The same seminar, regarding Baptism in the Spirit, is taught across denominational lines. There is a gulf between God and man that man through his own power cannot cross. God wants an intimate relationship with each one of us. To that end, God will cross the divide and will dwell in the hearts of those who are open to this relationship.
There is a longer (8 week) version of this seminar geared specifically for Catholics. “You Will Receive Power” includes journal reflections.
Neither course is required to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They do clarify questions that are only touched on in a forum such as this.

 

[DustinsDad]

Margaurite, I am baffled…

I haven’t been following your and Margarite’s back n forths real close, but I’ll comment on your post above just to clear something up.

“Traditional” catholics absolutely positively have no problem with the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. In fact, I’d say that are more likely than your average lay-folk to believe and acknowledge such things.For example, I’m currently reading this book: Padre Pio: The Wonderworker, I’d recommend it, as it demonstrates the awesome power of the Holy Spirit working through a humble Franciscan friar - and one of traditionalist folks’ most loved saints. (see more here).

I guess what I’m trying to say is that if someone has problems or concerns with the “Charismatic movement”, it is not fair to say they have problems or concerns or doubts about the power of the Holy Spirit. That is simply not the case at all - they (and I guess I) would just be concerned that this whole “Charismatic movement” is actually the working of the Holy Spirit in the first place.

And in that case, we better make darn sure that what is being preached and taught therein doesn’t contradict what we already know by faith that the Holy Spirit has revealed. I think the jury is still out on this one personally, and although it probably varies from various charismatic group to the next - I think there are plenty of warning signals and red flags therin for me to say, “whoah Nellie!. …not so fast!”

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I haven’t been following your and Margarite’s back n forths real close, but I’ll comment on your post above just to clear something up.

“Traditional” catholics absolutely positively have no problem with the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. In fact, I’d say that are more likely than your average lay-folk to believe and acknowledge such things.For example, I’m currently reading this book: Padre Pio: The Wonderworker, I’d recommend it, as it demonstrates the awesome power of the Holy Spirit working through a humble Franciscan friar - and one of traditionalist folks’ most loved saints. (see more here).

I guess what I’m trying to say is that if someone has problems or concerns with the “Charismatic movement”, it is not fair to say they have problems or concerns or doubts about the power of the Holy Spirit. That is simply not the case at all - they (and I guess I) would just be concerned that this whole “Charismatic movement” is actually the working of the Holy Spirit in the first place.

And in that case, we better make darn sure that what is being preached and taught therein doesn’t contradict what we already know by faith that the Holy Spirit has revealed. I think the jury is still out on this one personally, and although it probably varies from various charismatic group to the next - I think there are plenty of warning signals and red flags therin for me to say, “whoah Nellie!. …not so fast!”

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

The “Charismatic Movement” is not the same as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

 

[Margarite]

I haven’t been following your and Margarite’s back n forths real close, but I’ll comment on your post above just to clear something up.

“Traditional” catholics absolutely positively have no problem with the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. In fact, I’d say that are more likely than your average lay-folk to believe and acknowledge such things.For example, I’m currently reading this book: Padre Pio: The Wonderworker, I’d recommend it, as it demonstrates the awesome power of the Holy Spirit working through a humble Franciscan friar - and one of traditionalist folks’ most loved saints. (see more here).

I guess what I’m trying to say is that if someone has problems or concerns with the “Charismatic movement”, it is not fair to say they have problems or concerns or doubts about the power of the Holy Spirit. That is simply not the case at all - they (and I guess I) would just be concerned that this whole “Charismatic movement” is actually the working of the Holy Spirit in the first place.

And in that case, we better make darn sure that what is being preached and taught therein doesn’t contradict what we already know by faith that the Holy Spirit has revealed. I think the jury is still out on this one personally, and although it probably varies from various charismatic group to the next - I think there are plenty of warning signals and red flags therin for me to say, “whoah Nellie!. …not so fast!”

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Thank you so much for putting into words what I felt, but could not find the words to say.
I agree that very often it is the more tradtional people who accept the miracles performed through the saints like Padre Pio, St. Bernadette, St. Margaret Mary (my patroness), St. Terese, etc.
It is just that we are unsure and hesitant and wary of this new Catholic Charismatic Movement that says that the Holy Ghost has suddenly changed his pattern. The pattern of singling out holy individuals to convey certain messages to the rest of the Catholic Church.
It is not that we wish to be close minded, but the entire goal of our life is to get to heaven and to do that means avoiding things that might take us to the other place. Sometimes we need to avoid something because we do not know about it and it is always better to be safe than sorry. I know that God can bring good out of this, because out of anything, God can bring good, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

Deborah,
you say that no one can explain the supernatural, but that is exactly what the Catholic Church tries to do, that is what every religion known to man tries to do. The entire purpose of religion is to explain God, what he wants of us, how we should respond to him, how we should live our lives so that we can be with him. Every person has that inner knowledge that there is a god and most people seek out religion to explain what God means and how he is related to us.

I am quite open to the influence of the Holy Ghost. I pray daily for his guidance in my life. I have seen God guide my life since I was a child. My dad would lose a job and suddenly another would open on the other side of the USA, with no preparation by my father, no application, the job would just fall right into his lap. This happened many times and every time we knew that God had closed one door only to open another. God moves in ways that no person would ever consider, but which in the end lead to a much better solution.
I know that if I pray and then leave it up to God, he will lead me in the way he wishes me to go. Have you ever heard the song “Come Holy Ghost”? It is beautiful and one of my favorites.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To DebChris,
Excellent response in post 161
Deacon Ed B

 

[DustinsDad]

Pentecostal churches were born from the revivals of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. …When individuals at these revivals began to speak in tongues, the phenomenom was not accepted by the mainstream non-Catholic denominations from which the preachers came…These churches have neither the richness nor the Tradition of the Catholic Church. Oftentimes they have a “once saved, always saved” mentality and the only sure sign of salvation is the outward manifestation of the charisms, in particular the gift of tongues.

Is it your belief that these manifestations are actually the work of the Holy Spirit? Do you find it rather odd that Christ established One True Church outside of which there is no salvation - and yet the Holy Spirit is doing these things with these folks, and apparently with no intention of “bringing them home” (or if the intention is there, no one’s listening!)

I mean, it hurts to say it since we all know sincere folks in these groups, but there is a real possibility of diabolic trickery going on here, isn’t there???

Especially since we have the words of Pope Pius XII that state:
(Mystici Corporis Christi, 22) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.” As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

I mean, that really gets to the heart of the issue, since it was to these groups that certain Catholic folks went “looking for something” and got the ball rolling in “absorbing” or “bringing in” to the Church this movement…

What makes the Catholic Charismatic Renewal different is the immediate submission to the magisterium. It does not take away the need for the Sacraments. Rather there is an intense growing hunger for the Sacraments. There is quicker conviction of sin which leads to the confessional and an overwhelming desire for that source and summit of our faith, the Eucharist. …Words fall short when it comes to describing the experience whether that experience is witnessed or experienced.

I certainly hope that this is the case - but there are those who contend that it is not.

As scripture says, it is a peace beyond understanding. Raymond Burke was elevated to diocesan bishop shortly after being prayed for.

Ummmm - earlier you stated:
A priest who undergoes this Baptism in the Holy Spirit will, for instance, display greater zeal and courage in his preaching. It is awesome to see the gifts of Holy Orders released. I was a witness when this happened to now Archbishop Raymond Burke.
Giving me the impression that you had seen Archbishop Raymond Burke undergo a “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”, aka “slain in the Spirit”. I just want to clarify - is what you were talking about in regards to the ArchBishop just that a Charismatic gathering prayed for him or for his elevation?

If Charismatics gather it is because we do not live in isolation. We need one other’s support.

I can appreciate that, but…

During the conferences there are teachings on what it means to walk in the Spirit. One I remember included the analogy of a limousine with chauffeurs standing by. Why does the chauffeur wear a cap? To show that he is not the owner of the car. Each of us needs to be ready for God’s purpose, whatever that is, whenever he chooses to use us. As the John the Baptist said, “I must decrease that He might increase.”
FIRE rallies mentioned in an earlier post focus on Faith, Intercessory Prayer, Repentence, and Evangelization. These are talks on what it means to walk in faith and to pray for one another. There is ample opportunity for confession. Evangelization takes place everyday as we live our lives as God calls each of us to live. Anybody can attend these conferences and rallies. Nobody asks for a membership card.

And everything up there is applicable to every member of the Church and have been in every generation and every age - why are these specifically “charismatic meetings” and “charismatic renewal conferences” and “charismatic healing masses”? Doesn’t make sense unless the abovementioned “stuff” is secondary to the charismatic “sensations”.

Just honest questions here, take no offence.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Irish_Saints]

I just spent the last few hours bringing myself up to speed in this thread. I will have more (MUCH more) to post in the future, but just so there’s no ambiguiity regarding my position on this topic:

I am a former Protestant Pentecostal, who was actively involved in ministry for quite some time. Since researching, then ultimately embracing, the Catholic Church and and her doctrine, I have a number of serious [read: gi-normous] issues with the Charismatic Renewal Movement within the Catholic Church.

I will take the time to list them and flesh them out in the very near future. Many of my concerns are precisely along the same lines as what has already been very eloquently set forth by DustinsDad.

I am hoping that, once we get these concerns properly aired, that someone can take the time to show…concretely and authoritatively, without resorting to anecdotal and “experiential” criteria as ultimately sufficient to the task…how the CRM fits into the life of the Church, her unbroken and constant Tradition, and her otherwise compelling reservoir of doctrine.

My pleasure to be on board. Looking forward to the ongoing discussion.

 

[deborahssong]

To all…who posted since and including Dustins dad…I may not be able to elaborate the way in which you all have seem to, and quite frankly it makes me feel somewhat inadequate to continue…however I will. I have ONLY TRIED to say that I believe scripture 100% and yes over catholic doctrine…if doctrine doesnt confirm scripture…I have as I will repeat, been in meetings that I have NOT been able to stand up, as the power of God was so strong wihtin the place where we were.( and i left there changed, one instance my knee was healed, hadnt been ablt to walk on it for quite some time, left there changed, walking with no pain…) I believe it is the same power…of God that prompted Peter to reach out his hand and say to that beggar…silver and gold I do not have, but what I have I give to you…rise and walk…and that man did.
Mark chapter 4 is a lesson about faith…do you beleive that lesson was ONLY to the apostles? Isnt that sort of faith in God for all who will beleive, who have received Jesus as their Lord and their Savior! I have heard numerous stories thru the years of supernatural things taking place with catholic children,priests, and sisters who had stimgas, or visions, or Mary appearing to them…I mean those are supernatural moves of God and to some? they think we are out there folks…yet you all know exactly to which stories I am referring if you have grown up in the church. Saints who had supernatural moves of God in their lives…yet you have problems believing that God can move in this fashion…I am not trying to be disrespectful at all but I just dont get it. You can believe that Jesus is the body and blood in the Eucharist…and I KNOW that is scripture, but you doubt the charsimatic moves of God…the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT, one way that is, in which He moves. as I said I dont get it…and please remember to those who are well grounded in your catholic dogma and doctrine…be careful that you dont sound like you have ALL of the answers… I feel your answers make our experiences look as though we are just illusioned about what we have experienced? remember blind Bartemeus? Jesus healed his eyes ( strange way by the way) and the pharisees wanted an explanation and actually my paraphrase, put him on the spot about it…I love his answer…my paraphrase…I dont know about all of that but what I do know… my eyes were blind and NOW I see.
We all know that there are abuses…within all denominations…we know that. But you dont throw out truth because some abuse it…and I am getting that air of the fact that the catholic church is the only true church…and I have a real problem with that…and maybe that is me, something I’ll have to work out within. Dustins dad, maybe you can interpret for me since Margaurite understands your communication better… Thanks again…God Bless all…Peter preached to the sanhedrin…Acts 4;13…now when they saw the boldness of John and Peter, and perceived that they were UNEDUCATED men, they marveled., they realized they had been with Jesus. and seeing the man who had been “healed” standing with them, they could say nothing against it. Later on in that same passage Peter said… we can only speak that which we have seen or witnessed. Well I have witnessed real moves of God within the catholic chucrh and protestant churches, and lives changed… should always follow, and we should allow the church to be open to receive these moves of God! …anyway God Bless…

Deborah

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Deborahssong. Very well said. I believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and has the fullness of Revelation. That said, do not discount Protestant denominations. The Spirit does indeed act within them also. I too have seen miracles in the Catholic church, at Charismatic prayer meetings and yes, I have seen Spirit filled Protestants, acting with the Holy Spirit, have true healings. In essence, do not put God in a box. Let the Spirit move as He wills, because He will anyway. What I have seen throughout this thread is people rejecting that which they do not understand. Suffice to say, our Magisterium has not condemned the Charismatic movement, but has encouraged it and supported it. I am not saying it is for all. If you are not comfortable with it, I respect that. But do not condemn that which you do not understand. Rather, seek more true knowledge about it to understand. The Spirit gives charisms to whomsoever he will. We do not all receive them, nor to those who have them, necessarily have all. In fact most don’t. I will say, if you honestly look into it and earnestly try to understand it, you will be richer for it.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Margarite]

To all…if doctrine doesnt confirm scripture…

The Catholic Church has always made sure that every doctrine does not contradict scripture. The doctrine may not be in scripture, but no doctrine contradicts scripture.

I have as I will repeat, been in meetings that I have NOT been able to stand up, as the power of God was so strong wihtin the place where we were.( and i left there changed, one instance my knee was healed, hadnt been ablt to walk on it for quite some time, left there changed, walking with no pain…and that man did.

I believe that miracles are possible, I don’t think anyone has denied that, but what we are questioning is the method and the fact that according to the CM the Holy Ghost has changed his method of reavealing his power. Notice, that it was Saint Peter, the man who Christ chose to be the leader of his church, who this miracle was performed through. I can think of only a couple times in history when the Church has confirmed a miracle that was not directly attributed to the intercession of some very holy person, a person through whom the Holy Ghost acted through. The only time that I can think of and this was in the bible was when Paul was struck from his horse, but he was only cured of his blindness through the intercession of a very holy man.

Mark chapter 4 is a lesson about faith…I am not trying to be disrespectful at all but I just dont get it.

It is just that God has seemed to move in such a consistant way for 2000 years and suddenly these people are telling us that He has changed his pattern. I mean I am not talking about 10, 50 or 100 years, I am talking 2000 years. That is a long time! I know God is not bound by time, but he acted in about the same way all through the Old Testament, and so far in the New Testament he has followed a pattern. It just seems strange that He would change his pattern without so much as a saintly leader to start such a drastically different movement. I mean if you think of any big change in the history of the Church that was not started by the pope, it was led by a person who was later canonized. There is no such person in the CM.

You can believe that Jesus is the body and blood in the Eucharist… my eyes were blind and NOW I see.

We may say that the Catholic Church has all the answers, because that is what we belive and it is through the Chruch that we determine what is good and what is not. The Church is like a filter, we run everything by the Church and it determines the right and wrong for us. Many times Catholics misinterpret what the Church means and that is where problems occur, but the Church tries to be very clear when it comes to matters that are important.

We all know that there are abuses…God Bless all

It must have been my fault that I did not understand you. I am extremely sorry. I took my time reading what you wrote and I reread the parts I did not understand. I belive I get your points. That is why I am addressing each point as I see it. I am very sorry, yet again. Please forgive my hasty criticism.

Peter preached to the sanhedrin…Acts 4;13…anyway God Bless…
Deborah

1John 4:1 “Dearlybeloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many falseprophets are gone out into the world.”
This may explain why we question you so much. Though I had to look this passage up, it is ingrained in Catholic doctrine and we being ingrained with Catholic doctrine, this is ingrained in us. I doubt not that God performs miracles daily. I cannot do anything, but trust the fact that your leg was healed. What I do not trust is the spirit behind this Charismatic movement. For the devil is clever and he also is a spirit.
Thank you for your responses and for this very stimulating debate. I get so excited every time I look in my inbox and see that someone has posted to this forum.
Yours through Our Lady,
Margarite

PS: It would not let me include all of your post because it only allows 6000 characters and I had way over 8000

 

[DustinsDad]

…I believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and has the fullness of Revelation. That said, do not discount Protestant denominations. The Spirit does indeed act within them also… and yes, I have seen Spirit filled Protestants, acting with the Holy Spirit, have true healings. In essence, do not put God in a box. …

Why is it putting God into a box to question heretical sects and their miracles? And what does it mean to not discount Protestnt denominations? Are we not to fervantly pray for and work for their return to the One True Church for the salvation of their immortal souls? Or are they ok where they are at - safe and secure and not on the road to eternal ruin? Please, it seems you only want to respond to folks who agree with you, but please try to answer some questions for the rest of us.

Miracles alone are not enough to prove the working of the Holy Spirit. In as much as such things are of the Holy Spirit, they would clearly call those outside the Church to come home for the salvation of their souls and for the glory of God. In as much as these things make the participants “comfortable” outside of Holy Mother Church, they are not and cannot be of the Holy Spirit.

I want to quote some scriptural passages that I really wish you would comment on…
Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Galations 1:6-9
I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14
For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.

1 John 4:1
Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
These passages, coupled with the infallibly proclaimed and defined teachings of Holy Mother Church -
“One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (IV Lateran Council, A.D. 1215)

“We declare, we say, we define, and we pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. The Lateran, November 14th, in our eighth year. As a perpetual memorial of this matter.” (Unam Sanctam, A.D. 1302)

"It [the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, nor heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church; "
(Cantate Domino, A.D. 1442)
…stand in contrast to the position you appear to be taking here and are a huge red flag and cause for alarm for many of us.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Dustin’s Dad. What I am saying is that God works in Protestant denominations also They can be saved. And yes, I totally agree that we should all pray the prayer of Blessed John XXIII which he prayed on his death bed. **“Ut Unum Sint” ** That they may all be one. **** The Church also teaches that souls outside of the Catholic Church can be saved. Read the CCC in paragraphs 846, 847 & 848. I am not typing them in here as it would be too lengthy. These should answer your post in which you wanted specific quotations answered. I am answering this way now, as I have to rush to take part in Ash Wednesday services. This CCC section I find very helpful.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Irish_Saints]

To Dustin’s Dad. What I am saying is that God works in Protestant denominations also They can be saved. And yes, I totally agree that we should all pray the prayer of Blessed John XXIII which he prayed on his death bed. **“Ut Unum Sint” **That they may all be one. The Church also teaches that souls outside of the Catholic Church can be saved. Read the CCC in paragraphs 846, 847 & 848. I am not typing them in here as it would be too lengthy. These should answer your post in which you wanted specific quotations answered. I am answering this way now, as I have to rush to take part in Ash Wednesday services. This CCC section I find very helpful.
Deacon Ed B

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

• Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
  847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
• Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
  848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

(Emphasis mine)

While framed in the positive, these sections from the CCC cannot be interpreted as endorsing religious indifferentism. The Catholic Church has never, in two thousand years, taught that salvation can be obtained outside the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. What it allows for is the possibility that despite an individual’s ignorance of the gospel of Christ and His Church, or invincible ignorance on the part of an individual who does not realize the Catholic Church is that one means of salvation, an individual may yet respond to the grace of God to the best of his ability and be afforded an opportunity for salvation. Note that it does not release an individual from seeking the fullness of truth, nor does it release the Church from her responsibility to proclaim that truth. God may indeed be working in people outside the visible Church, but that does not give them or us a “pass” to obey the whole counsel of God as contained in the one church that Christ his Son founded on the rock of Peter.

Such is the heart of indifferentism (“all paths up the mountain still lead to the peak”), and tragically is the “mantra” of much of what passes today as eccuminism.

Providing that this “movement” is genuine (and I have my reservations, but for the sake of arguement here, let’s say it is), then we still have the obligation to gently and reverently yet persistantly persuade our separated brethren that the fullness of faith is yet to be found in Christ’s Holy Catholic Church.

Adopting an “I’m okay, you’re okay” approach to the gospel runs counter to the Tradition of the Church, and does neither Catholic nor non-Catholic any service. If you really are “filled with the Spirit”, then you have a sacred obligation to seek out that one Church that he truly “baptised” on the day of Pentecost 2000 years ago. Just as Peter insisted the household of Cornelius be baptised even after witnessing them being filled with the Spirit, so it is incumbant that everyone with a similar claim today obediently subject themselves to the selfsame Church built on Peter by Christ Himself.

 

[DustinsDad]

Thanks Deacon Ed for answering my questions. I appreciate it…and have some follow up comments…

…What I am saying is that God works in Protestant denominations also They can be saved. And yes,The Church also teaches that souls outside of the Catholic Church can be saved. Read the CCC in paragraphs 846, 847 & 848…

I would say no, the Church does not teach that those outside the Church can be saved, to say otherwise would be to say the Church proclaimed as infallible dogma (see my earlier post) falsehoods. Now if you say we just understand these dogmas differently, then I’d point to Vatican I which infallibly said this:
If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which is different from that which the church has understood and understands: let him be anathema. (Vatican I, Session II, Canon IV #III)
Now does that mean that one has to be a *visible *member of the Church to be in the Church - no. The Church has always understood the theoritical nuances that can be present that can, theortically at least, incorporate one into the Church without being a visible member. Thing is, these theoretical nuances have become the norm in many folks’ eyes - and that is religious indifferentism in a nutshell.

Here’s the - I would say ambiguous - CCC passage that deals with it…
CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church…
Now I would say be careful with this, because it can lead one to an overly liberal and erroneous interpretation that turns 2000 years of constant Christian understanding on its head.

There are many who think that just because someone wasn’t born into the One True Church, they are automatically given a free pass on the necessity of conversion. But is this really reading the CCC in light of all that has been defined and taught before? Or is this reading the CCC in a vacuum and ignoring what has been defined and taught before?

As far as “through no fault of their own”…God knows where willful ignorance meets culpable ignorance - where unknowing rejection of Truth meets willful rejection of Truth. Could be as simple as knowing that the Catholic Church “claims something like they are the One True Church” and failing to look into it, could be as simple as hearing the Truth proclaimed once and rejecting it once if they die in that state. The Church has always (at least until the confusion of the last few decades) erred on the side of caution here - eternal souls are at stake!

Yet the charismatic enthusiast, generally speaking, assumes all these people are just fine “where they are” precisely because they see charisms present at their sects’ meetings and events - thinking that that must be the Holy Spirit, so they must be fine where they are. Yet Scripture specifically says such things are not always to be trusted as from the Holy Spirit - and if a different gospel is being preached, then the groups must be rejected and their “leaders” identified as false prophets.

What is from the Holy Spirit is the One True Faith - He *won’t *preach a different Gospel and He *won’t *contradict Himself. Yet from heretical sects that the “Charismatic Renewal” movement was born and made its way into the Church, bringing with it a large dose of religious indifference and confusion. And religious indifference is a damning thing - can lead a soul to eternal ruin. And eternity is a long time to be wrong.

Anyway - those are the concerns of traditional type folks - at least it is for me.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Irish_Saints]

Anyway - those are the concerns of traditional type folks - at least it is for me.

Oh crud, are you telling me I’m one of those traditional type folks?! :bigyikes:

Great entry, DD! Appreciate your insight!

 

[DebChris]

I’m not sure that I can answer many of the questions raised by Dustin’s Dad except with the invitation “Come and See.”
I currently live in a city with options for prayer groups in two different parishes. This has not always been the case. I would say the reason for conferences is mutual fellowship with others who have had the same life changing experience known as the Baptism in the Spirt. For some, like myself, the experience was dramatic. For others, the change is barely perceptible.
A Marian brother at the retreat center where I first encounter the Renewal often witnessed to his experience. He felt no changes until Morning Prayer at which time this unemotional man suddenly began to weep.
Oftentimes services are sponsored by the Charismatic Renewal. An example would be the annual healing Mass at a local parish. It is only when a person comes that they discover the sponsorship. The same is true for FIRE rallies. For those advertised as “Charismatic,” it may be that necessary connection is made between individuals who have shared a similar experience. This can be especially true for those who have recently undergone the experience and need guidance from those who had the experience at least a decade earlier. It has been years since I have had the opportunity to attend one of these large conferences where the focus is on transformation. God is not done with me.
It is important to remove the falsehood that the Charismatic Renewal is a sect. We may also be members of other organizations within the Catholic Church. I am a Cursilito, for instance. This is a separate movement within the Catholic Church begun in Spain about the time of WWII. It is a lay movement meant to address the poor catechesis of many Catholics. Membership requires sponsorship from another Cursillista. The parish priest is notified of the person’s desire to make a Cursillo. Formation that lasts a lifetime is done hand in hand with others who have also made the Cursillo.
The Charismatic Renewal does not require sponsorship. It is not limited like the Knights of Columbus or other legitimate organizations that help enrich the Catholic Church.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Gentlemen, believe me, I am in no way giving anyone a free pass, nor am I in anyway suggesting religious indifferentism. No, I do not take the approach of I’m OK, you’re OK. I strongly believe, and would give my life for the belief that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and we have the fullness of revelation. That said, Those who do not beong to the Catholic Church can be saved. The paragraphs I quoted still said we have the obligation to evangelize all men. I would refer all of you again to the CCC and the part which describes the Church as Catholic. This is lengthy and is from paragraphs 830-856, I would also refer you to Romans 2:12-16wherein he describes the non-Jews and non-Christians who live by the interior law (the natural law written in their hearts), says they can be saved. Note, the 10 Commandments are the natural law reduced to writing. All of this leads to another question. Where is salvation easier? Simple, in the Catholic Church, because we have the fullness of revelation and the sacraments, which are the most powerful means of grace that God gives us. Grace itself is a participation in the divinity of God himself. Look at the whole picture and the extent of Gods mercy. Do not just look at one small part of the teaching of revelation and go no further. Then you will see, that yes, others can be saved. This is not because of their merit, but because of God’s mercy looking into the depth of their hearts and soul to see if they were truly seeking him.
Deacon Ed B . .

 

[Irish_Saints]

Deacon Ed,

Look at the whole picture and the extent of Gods mercy. Do not just look at one small part of the teaching of revelation and go no further.

Is there a specific area of the “whole picture” wherein we have been deficient that you can p(name removed by moderator)oint for us? Are we missing something of God’s mercy, the teaching of revelation, or something else?

I really don’t want to de-rail this thread; it’s specifically for discussing the Charismatic Movement within the Catholic Church. However, we seem to have an ancillary topic, and that is whether those Christians of other communities are or can be considered “saved”, particularly in light of whatever “charisms” are evident in these mixed Catholic/non-Catholic events.

God is ultimately the Judge of every man, and it is certainly within the scope of Christian charity to earnestly hope in God’s mercy towards all men. As a former Protestant myself, I am sure I was the recipient of grace as a Protestant. But I’m sure of that not because of some spiritual gift I experienced or evidenced, nor due to any feeling I might have had. No, I am sure today of God’s grace throughout my life because it ultimately drew me to His Church.

I would not deny that same working of grace in anyone else, be he Christian, Jew, Muslim, or “none of the above.” That being said, it is and always has been God’s normative means for salvation to be dispensed through the Catholic Church. It’s not simply a matter of it being the “easier” mode of salvation…for the great majority of mankind, it is the ONLY means that has been revealed by God to men. Those who are “statistical outliers” and fall under the perview of Paul’s Natural Law exception are just that…exceptions. The notion of exceptions is that they are both rare and few.

No amount of emotional “froth” nor litany of “experiences” can replace solid, sound doctrine based on the Tradition of the Catholic Church. Various charismata cannot be pointed to as prima facie evidenciary exhibits that “prove” one’s spiritual state before God. He desires obedience. “If you love me, keep my commandments.” If someone displays all manner of wondrous works yet obstinantly refuses to enter by the One Door, the same is a robber and a thief.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Dear Irish Saint. 1st let me say that I use Deacon Ed B because there is another member by the name of Deacon Ed. Because of that I use the first initial of my last name. You are correct in all you say. Do read all the references I pointed out in my last post. This will help. In another part of the CCC, one part even says that all those who truly seek, but have not yet found the Catholic Church are indeed Catholic. I know I read it in the CCC, but have been unable to find it, that is why I am hesitant to say it. This expands the common definition of what most would accept as being Catholic. So than, maybe we are both saying the same thing, just differently. My whole point was not to start another thread, but to explain that the Charisms of the Holy Spirit are given freely to those who seek them and want to be closer to God and how infinite is the Divine Mercy and Love. I know of one woman who is non Catholic that spends the first 3 hours of each day on her knees in prayers of love and praise thanking God for all his gifts and for all he has done, especially in dying for us on the Cross. She corrects those who are are wrong and lives the 10 Commandments strictly. While not being Catholic, she is a person I would call holy and good to the core. She praises Jesus all day even while working. She even takes in poor and the lost into her home to help them and teach them of the love of Jesus. She shows and lives a genuine love of Jesus. I see Gods love and mercy at work in her. I will let you draw your conclusions as to her salvation. Again, trust in God’s mercy, it is infinite.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Irish_Saints]

Dear Deacon Ed B,

1st let me say that I use Deacon Ed B because there is another member by the name of Deacon Ed. Because of that I use the first initial of my last name.

A thousand apologies; I apparently didn’t see the “original” Deacon Ed, and presumed there was little danger of mistaken identities in this thread. I will use your full moniker henceforth.

I know of one woman who is non Catholic that spends the first 3 hours of each day on her knees in prayers of love and praise thanking God for all his gifts and for all he has done, especially in dying for us on the Cross. She corrects those who are are wrong and lives the 10 Commandments strictly. While not being Catholic, she is a person I would call holy and good to the core. She praises Jesus all day even while working. She even takes in poor and the lost into her home to help them and teach them of the love of Jesus. She shows and lives a genuine love of Jesus. I see Gods love and mercy at work in her.

As a Pentecostal, I knew plenty of folks like this too. I’m also aware of rabbis, imams and gurus who likewise have apparently rich spiritual lives. I think we both know that this cannot be a litmus for the gospel. It is not a matter of who speaks in tongues or prays for hours on end or crawls on broken pottery shards. Do they obey all of Christ’s commandments, including submitting to his shepherds?

I will let you draw your conclusions as to her salvation.

Not my job…thankfully! That’s a management decision, I’m only in sales!