Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I love your response. God Bless
Deacon Ed B

 

[deborahssong]

Hey folks…great answers and info…however you are all, most that is, still doing what I have the BIGGEST complaint about…and why I left the catholic church ( one of the reasons). You are still doubting what scripture has shown us over and over and over all through the bible! His presence …HIs power…and He will move however He desires…
My knee is STILL healed by the way…oh and I no longer have seizures! Delivered completely of that and have medical documention! If I had checked with the church first…anyway my point being is you are right about the abuses…however let me ask you a question…there are lots of crazy foolish drivers on the road, but do you stop driving because of them…no. You just watch and be cautious and drive even better! Our spiritual lives are not grounded in religion and doctrine soley…I have met many who are religious and I always relate back to the Pharisees, knew their religion inside and out, but ididnt recognize Jesus when He was right in front of them…religion does that…blinds us…
The first century church grew by the thousands, several days at a time…THAT is a move of the HolySpirit…They were one in unity and harmony scripture says…I would imagine that meant they were all belieiving the power of the Holy spirit that they had witnessed themselves…some sold their land and homes to join this 1st century church…come on…how many of us would do that? It was the move of the Hoy Spirit among those people to have them do that…
Paul and Cilas in prison…they began to sing unto the Lord.praise.and the doors of the prison flew open…they didnt leave but ended up leading the guard and his whole family to the Lord…a move of the Holy Spirit. I will tell you this, I didnt beleive I was heading to heaven UNTIL I had the personal encounter with Jesus…myself and i wasnt in the catholic church…and do I KNOW that I am saved? YOU betcha…my life has been SO TRANSFORMED it would take too numerous space to share all that He has done…I have had drs actually say that I am a miracle, living thru what I have…and actually being rasied up! BUt what would have happened IF I had stayed and had never grown in the wisdom and knowledge of God? I shutter to even reflect…Thus again saying…If the church doesnt recognize the Holy Spirit moving in the lives of the othe rchurches who teach and preach Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man…then I guess I still have a huge hurdle to go over…because my heart just doesnt receive that well at all.
Anyway I will close with this for now…I am so thankful that HIs mercy and grace is SO much greater than ours…Thank you Deacon Ed B, and thank you Margaurite for your apology…accepted…one more thing…I have seen so much sadness in the faces of people who ““claim”” that they know the liivng Jesus! My goodness…He is my joy and he is the reason I found life worth living! He IS…and that is enough…to keep me smiling forever! That is a move of the Holy Spirit! Sometimes I think the titles we give things…cause more harm than good!

Deborah

 

[Irish_Saints]

Dear deborahssong,

I rejoice with you for your healing, and admire your obvious zeal. And more than anything else, I would want you and everyone to realize that I don’t believe it is my intent or the intent of anyone else here to “quench the Spirit” or stand as an impediment for someone embracing the fullness of the faith.

I do not doubt for an instant God’s sovereignty or his ability to do what he wants, when he wants, with whom he wants. He is, afterall, God.

What I and some others have been trying to explain is that experience, no matter how wonderful it may seem, can not in any way mitigate against or “trump” truth. And truth is, Christ established one Church; yes, under the guardianship of the Holy Spirit, and also under the loving stewardship of his shepherd, the pope, and those bishops, priests and deacons in fellowship with him.

Herein is one of my chief concerns about the Charismatic Renewal / Pentecostalism. By its very nature, it becomes both cathartic and addictive. It’s appealing because it impacts directly on the emotions, and over time it requires “bigger and better” demonstrations to achieve that euphoric sensation (as is evidenced by the so-called “Toronto Blessing” phenomenon.) It remains de-centralized with regard to leadership, so noone steps up to take responsibility when those ineveitible abuses take place. These experiences become the new yardstick by which all other spirituality is measured. And with regard to Catholic and non-Catholic Charismatics at common events, too often Catholics will site anecdotal evidence of a non-Catholic person’s “holiness”, with no incentive whatsoever to lead that individual to a fuller understanding of the faith they espouse. This is the indifferentism to which I have alluded, and is a dangerous trap of spiritual apathy into which many have surrendered their birthright as Catholics.

deborahssong, I apologize if noone has told you this yet. You seem like a loving soul by all accounts, and I appreciate the obvious devotion you have for God and his Word. Would that many more Catholics remained, as Pope John Paul II encouraged, “pliable to the Holy Spirit.” Now I appeal to you in all sincerity and christian love, come back to Christ’s one church. Return to the Eucharistic Jesus and the sacraments. Bring yourself under the loving correction and direction of His pastors. Enter in by that narrow way, I pray you.

 

[DebChris]

Dear Deacon Ed B,

ANot my job…thankfully! That’s a management decision, I’m only in sales!

I too like your response re: who gets into heaven.
One of the quotes I like from the Jesus Day (not a Charismatic event) I spent in Chicago, “Many will reject the kingdom because of the people who will be there (ie. the thieves, the prostitutes, the outcasts).”

Dear deborahssong,

I rejoice with you for your healing, and admire your obvious zeal. And more than anything else, I would want you and everyone to realize that I don’t believe it is my intent or the intent of anyone else here to “quench the Spirit” or stand as an impediment for someone embracing the fullness of the faith.

I do not doubt for an instant God’s sovereignty or his ability to do what he wants, when he wants, with whom he wants. He is, afterall, God.

What I and some others have been trying to explain is that experience, no matter how wonderful it may seem, can not in any way mitigate against or “trump” truth. And truth is, Christ established one Church; yes, under the guardianship of the Holy Spirit, and also under the loving stewardship of his shepherd, the pope, and those bishops, priests and deacons in fellowship with him.

Herein is one of my chief concerns about the Charismatic Renewal / Pentecostalism. By its very nature, it becomes both cathartic and addictive. It’s appealing because it impacts directly on the emotions, and over time it requires “bigger and better” demonstrations to achieve that euphoric sensation (as is evidenced by the so-called “Toronto Blessing” phenomenon.) It remains de-centralized with regard to leadership, so noone steps up to take responsibility when those ineveitible abuses take place. These experiences become the new yardstick by which all other spirituality is measured. And with regard to Catholic and non-Catholic Charismatics at common events, too often Catholics will site anecdotal evidence of a non-Catholic person’s “holiness”, with no incentive whatsoever to lead that individual to a fuller understanding of the faith they espouse. This is the indifferentism to which I have alluded, and is a dangerous trap of spiritual apathy into which many have surrendered their birthright as Catholics.

deborahssong, I apologize if noone has told you this yet. You seem like a loving soul by all accounts, and I appreciate the obvious devotion you have for God and his Word. Would that many more Catholics remained, as Pope John Paul II encouraged, “pliable to the Holy Spirit.” Now I appeal to you in all sincerity and christian love, come back to Christ’s one church. Return to the Eucharistic Jesus and the sacraments. Bring yourself under the loving correction and direction of His pastors. Enter in by that narrow way, I pray you.

It is God alone who judges the hearts of men. Check back to my earilier post regarding ICCS, especially the call for Charismatics to continue to mature in faith. It is indeed “possible to become so full of the Spirit as to lose sight of the Spirit” (Jesus Day 1982).
I did visit a Pentecostal Holiness Church while I was in Chicago. The person who brought me did not understand how I could simply observe her church’s service without becoming involved. The focus was on the gifts, particularly tongues. It did sound like gibberish, as skeptics on this site sometimes mention. It was pure emotionalism as they worked themselves into an ectasy that allowed the manifestation of tongues.Reason was not a part of the experience. Visions of the Jim Jones tragedy filled me with concern as I watched. There was no discernment.
Once I became a part of the Charismatic Renewal, what I remember was the emphasis on discernment. Any person who believed he/she had a scripture reading or prophecy to share was to submit it to the discernment team. To become a discernment team member, an individual had to have been a member of the Renewal for a minimum of ten years. He/she must be able to set aside emotions and judge the purported Word of God against Scripture and the Magisterium. A great emphasis was placed on the importance of mature (in the Spirit) guidance for those who were new to the experience. It is easy to become carried away and think that this mountain we feel is what it is about.
As Jesus told the Apostles, sometimes you have to come down from the mountain and walk in the valley. Also, I did tell my pastor about my own Baptism in the Spirit when it happened and the consequences I knew I would face at home.
We are called to offer a sacrifice of Praise. We are also called at times to “Be Still and know that I am God.”

 

[deborahssong]

Dear Irish Saints…

Great words and info.......

      Yes I do love the Lord very much!  He changed my life and has so transformed me. yes I am a living example of the word of God being alive!  I have taken its precepts and applied them to my life!  guess what?  I am not the same person I was 24 years ago nor do I ever want to be the same person I was 24 years ago!  
     The writings of the early church fathers ...................how do you get that for sure that the catholic church is the one church....how?  I have read some of the documents, and yes I have read the Didache, and I am working on the aplogetics of Justin Martyr......yet I just dont see it. I have another question.....Jesus was Jewish......and he told the phairsees that anyone who changed the law and or taught men otherwise, was in danger of not going to heaven.  The law he was referring to was Jewish. The apostles were Jewish and practiced Judiasm  so how is it that the historians have gotten catholic out of that.....my dad says that catholic means universal....ok I can buy that. universal in what? 
  Please please please....understand that I am not trying to be difficult....but my heart needs to have the peace of God about this....and some of this it doesnt!!! Ill be real honest with you....I didnt like certain aspects of the mass that I attended with the renewal......charismatic.....however it was far more reverant than I have seen in some other meetings.  The issue for me is where you say to seek the church's stance on everything. I just cannot get past that at all.
<M son and daughter are both strong christians.....My son just yesterday made a very negative remark about the catholic church..something he heard........and which most of the time I would have agreed but my heart became grieved for him....he is hearing rumors.....and I caught mysefl ready to defend it with telling him to research for himself....however I didnt.  yet....I just am unable to get past certain issues.......and it is very disheartening.....am I on this journey because my experinces in some of the protestant churches have been so negative or I am really on this journey being led by the Holy Spirit of God?  I have asked the Lord to please reveal to me His desire for my life right now.......
  My experiences are very real. and we must NEVER discount the experinces in the bible as well!  Never! Is it Gods will for us to be ignorant of His ways?  I think not!  Jesus is our example and He told us how to walk this life out!!!!!  BY HIs power.....and it is for all who have made HIM LORD of their lives!  On that note I am contacting a priest to talk with him about some of these issues. DId you know that some of the elderly men that are on the staff at the vatican had an encounter with the Holy Spirit?  Did you know that some of them watch and follow Kenneth Copeland?  and yet they are still on the staff and love serving where they are!  Has anybody heard of SIster Theresa? a sweet little nun gifted with some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit? when asked in an interview why she stays in the catholic church she says....if everybody left the church who didnt agree with some part of it, we wouldnt have a church!  good words I thought! she also said she has been thrown out of many catholic churches yet she has been received well in many.....she said after she shares her own testimony she asks the question, is Jesus the Lord of your life? and do you want to receive Him as your Lord?  I love that.
  Someone on this post said this as well....In the gospel of Matthew or is it John, Jesus said some will say Lord Lord, and He will say I never knew you.....well, my paraphrase...the churches may be full but that dont mean they are all heading to heaven.....amen?  The power of the Holy Spirit cannot be denied..and actually it is blasphemy of the Holy spirit to see HIs works and deny them......not my words folks....that is scripture, and I think I read it in the didache? or one of those articles.
 anyway I so appreciate all of you and your information more than you will ever ever know!  Though our opinions and communications may seem strong at times......I appreciate your effort to clarify for me.......HOWEVER.....you cannot ever deny experinces.....and how is it that the catholic chuch is willing to gladly receive me and the gifts that I have into its midst?  I was told ...oh we need your talents here...I teach, I am a leader, I am a prayer warrior, I have experience in heading up minstries.....as I love serving .and they were like....oh we need you my dear...the church needs your gifts and welcomes what God has done inyour life!  on that note I will close....God Bless all

Deborah

 

[DebChris]

Dustin’s Dad,
I looked at your questions a little closer. When we prayed for Fr. Burke, it was for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not his elevation. The elevation to bishop was an unexpected grace. You may notice, that I did not say we “prayed for his salvation.” As Catholics we pray for “a release of the gifts,” already received in the Sacraments. We have already received salvation at the Cross and we continue to receive God’s salvation each and every time the Mass is celebrated anywhere in the world until the end of time. Salvation for each of us individually is a process, not a one time event…
The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as “being slain (or resting) in the Spirit.” Have you read the Flowers of St. Francis? There are several stories of friars lying as if dead for days. Being slain in the Spirit would be like that. I never experienced, nor have I observed anyone else being in this state for more than a few minutes.

Magarite,
I have read few of your posts. I understand skepticism. Most saints, when first chosen by God, did not necessarily see themselves as holy. God will use us where we are as we are. It is the Holy Spirit who empowers us with His grace to know and obey His will. Instead of closing the door on the possibility that God may indeed have special gifts in store for you, you may want to attend a Life in the Spirit seminar. As mentioned earlier, there is a general Life in the Spirit seminar and there is You Will Receive Power Either seminar will answer most of your concerns. You Will Receive Power encourages daily reflection and journalling and is specifically for Catholics. May God’s peace, rich as it is reign in your heart.

 

[Margarite]

how do you get that for sure that the catholic church is the one church…how? I have read some of the documents, and yes I have read the Didache, and I am working on the aplogetics of Justin Martyr…yet I just dont see it.

It is so hard to answer this question because there are so many different ways to explain. To just use logic is the easiest. Jesus made Peter the head of the Church. (Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it). So when Peter died, the leaders of the Church at the time (who had been alive when Peter was alive) elected a new man to lead the Church and this tradition has continued to this day. Today we call him the pope. Now I do not have all the documentation (bible verses and dogma of the Church) to back me up right now because I don’t have the time to look it all up (maybe later), but just follow the logic.

I have another question…Jesus was Jewish…and he told the phairsees that anyone who changed the law and or taught men otherwise, was in danger of not going to heaven. The law he was referring to was Jewish. The apostles were Jewish and practiced Judiasm so how is it that the historians have gotten catholic out of that

I have to leave soon so I do not have the time to look this up maybe Irish Saints or DustinsDad can look up the chapter and verse. Anyways, I believe that somewhere, in Paul, yes, I know it is in Paul, he mentions how the apostles and himself had a conference about circumcism (sp?) and they all agreed that the gentiles did not need to have this procedure. Now this is an example of the ways in which the Church developed from being Jewish to being what it is now. Most of these changes occured when the Gentiles joined the Church and brought their traditions with them. The Jews lived a very specific life and it would have been very impractical to assume that all the Gentiles would live the way the Jews lived, so the Church adjusted. That is one of the main purposes of having a pope: to address the changes of the world and the changes in the people of the Church, this way the Church is living and does not remain rigid and thus break.

…my dad says that catholic means universal…ok I can buy that. universal in what?

The Church is universal in many ways. There are Catholics all over the world; every Catholic in the world believes in the same basic truthes; every Catholic in the world follows the same leader (the pope); every Catholic in the world is required to act in a certain way (mass on Sundays, follow the commandments, etc.). The Catholic Church is the only church that is this way. If you look at the Jewish faith, every synagogue is different, if you look at Lutherans, every church is different, if you look at any other religion, it is not nearly as universal as the Catholic Church. Mormons all believe basically the same thing, but they definently cannot trace themselves back to Christ. The word Catholic acutally means universal and that is the reason that Catholics are called Catholic, because we are the only universal church.

The issue for me is where you say to seek the church’s stance on everything. I just cannot get past that at all.

There are many reasons we seek the Church’s stance on everything. We seek her advice because she has 2000 years of experience. We seek her advice because we think she was started by Christ and that that the teachings of the Church are infallible. We seek her advice because almost every choice in life is a moral one and since we believe that the Church is the one true authority on morals, then it is only fitting that we seek her advice. We are like children who seek the advice of their parent before they make any big decision. It is the reason that Christ gave us the Church.

<M son and daughter are both strong christians…My son just yesterday made a very negative remark about the catholic church…something he heard

I have to go and I will finish later, but just to answer this, many prostestant religions have a very mistaken idea of what the Catholic Church teaches. Partly because they do not know and do not understand, and partly because many Catholics are uneducated in their own faith and thus accidentally say things about the Church that are not true. This is sad, but it is a fact and it is just something that Catholics have to deal with. Those of us who know a little about our faith, try to correct these misperceptions whenever we encounter them, but it will take more than a few people to correct this sad situation. I have to go now. Talk with you later. Thank you so much for this conversation.

 

[deborahssong]

Deb Chris …Great explanation! I beleive that the bottom line is this…if Paul taught about the gifts in the early church, then they have been a part of the church all of this time…nothing has changed…Now the disorder we see is not what we are talking about here. There was disorder then, there was the issue of gnositcism then, false prophets, and such, we are talking about the evidence of the fact that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been around since the first church…to deny that would be to deny scripture. I will say this again…IF THE CATHOLIC church does not honor the word of God over their oral tradition then it is in grave danger. I do not beleive that anywhere does Jesus tell those early apostles to override scripture with their traditions, oral or wirtten. That is where I have the problem and that is the best I have said it yet!!!yeah…I just said what I mean…
As a matter of fact Jesus warned them( Jews, religious) that their traditions were keeping HIs children from Him. Now saying that I realize that traditions are not bad in themselves, but only if they keep us focused on the tradition and not Jesus Christ! That is where I have the hangup…and it appears that many are saying just that…I understand that the belief is that the catholic church is the original church, but I still do not get that Jesus started catholicism? I mean…where in scripture is that suppose to have happened?
Margarite…If you are talking about the first council in Jerusalem where Peter had a vision from God about circumcision and allowing the gentiles to be who they were and NOT getting circumcised…I have read that in the catholic version of scripture as well and I just dont see where that is the case. He said what he said about circumsicion, because many of the Jews were upset and beleived they needed to do so and the gentiles were afraid of doing so…I do nnot see where all of the Jewish worship services or christian lifestyle was changed to adapt to what the catholic church’s claims is? so plaase help me here…am I missing something that is so simple, or do I have a legitimate question?
So in order to be a part of the catholic church I have to receive by faith… that it IS the only church, one true church…yet in my heart I have to be able to SEE in scripture that is so…yes, after reading the didache (early apostles wriitngs) I see the resemblance of the catholic church structure however I also see scripture refernce all of the way thru it. As I read it I was recalling scripture that applied to much of what I read! However I am just stuck here in oral tradiiton and Gods most Holy word. and yes you are right…many catholics do not know what they beleive and they do not know scripture…however I have seen that as well in other churches. it is amazing to me that many do not care why they have what they have…and quite frankly there will be no personal spiritual growth when our mindset doesnt change…and how does that take place…by renewing the mind, Paul says and that happens by learning the word of God and applying it to our lives…so that is why we see so much garbage within. members not taking their walk seriously…yet we want them to come and join us? we must deliver the system of church in the manner which Christ called us to…and in saying that …its obviously where we all must change…
I have heard more than once this remark…why do I want what they have when what they have isnt any diferent than what I see out here! when I hear that it grieves my heart…because they are talking about fake christians who claim they have the power of God within them and live otherwise. Actually paul said it best…the appearance of religion and being empty within…something to that nature…
Now I will say this…I can see of course the necessity to have a church foundation and of course I see that…in scripture…but I think it is the way I see that, which you have explained, that I have the problem with…anyway food for thought…I am learning so much here guys…thank you and God bless…

Deborah

 

[natsclem]

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ–the Way, the Truth, and the Life. That same Spirit is the one that Jesus promised to the apostles to lead them and their successors and the Church into all truths and gives life to the same Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, so much so that the same Church becomes the pillar and guardian of these truths. Jesus also promised that the gates of hell cannot prevail against it and that He has given it the keys of the Kingdom. He cannot and will not contradict Himself.

True Christianity is not about feel well and prosperity. It is not about tongues. it is not about miraculous healing. it is about obedience to the will of God which, in many ways, entails suffering and condescension. Christ preached a kingdom not of this world but beyond–the Kingdom of Heaven. If you feel that Christianity is about feelings, tongues, prosperity, earthly satisfaction, and miracles—then, you are deceived. Remember the Biblical event when satan tempted Jesus? What are the things that he was presenting to Jesus trying to make Him turn away from His Father? Power, Prosperity, Pride (feeling of sufficiency).

Do you believe all that the Word of God teaches and act accordingly? Remember, not all who call Him, “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of His Father. The will of our Father in Heaven is…“This is my beloved Son, listen to Him.” Jesus commanded His apostles to “teach them all that I have commanded you.” He also said, “he who listens to you, listens to me; he who despises you, despises me.” The apostles have the pope and the bishops as their successors. Remember how Matthias replaced Judas? Apostleship was and is passed on to the pope and the bishops. They are now the present-day apostles. Question: do you despise the pope and all the bishops because you feel the Holy Spirit fills you up and you got healing of your infirmities? If that is you disposition, then you are in serious error; you are deceived by the evil one. Do not forget, the devil is cunning; he can pose as an angel of light. But, fear not; he can be detected–disobedience, defiance of authority is his spirit, a product of pride–“I will not serve; I am better than he; I can interpret and understand the Scriptures; I am speaking in tongues; I am holier than others”.

No one outside Noah’s ark was saved. No one.

To be united with the true Church of Christ is the surest way to heaven. Come back. Never mind the Judases in the Church. Can you say to Jesus, the Just Judge, “Lord, I did not enter your Church, because Judases in the Church scandalized me”?

Come back so that your joy may be complete in heaven.

 

[DebChris]

It appears that things are starting to stray slightly.
For Deborahsong—We need to differientiate between tradition,as in local customs and Tradition (T) as the Word of God passed down through the generations. The early Church (Acts ch 4) submitted to the teachings of the Apostles. These essential teachings have been passed intact from generation to generation under the protection of the Holy Spirit.

When John the Baptist asked if Jesus was the Messiah, He replied, “The blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, and the poor have the good news preached to them.” Healing comes from God who would have His people be whole. Not everybody accepted His miracles as divine. When questioned, He answered, “a house divided cannot stand?” Satan does not want us healed. God does. I like the prayer at the end of the Litany to the Blessed Virgin that we have perpetual health of body and spirit in order to serve God.

At Cursillo grouping this morning we talked about how many seek God, even if they are not members of the Catholic Church. Islam means “submission to God.” If we see somebody who is physically lost, we ask them if we can help. We might give them directions or a map. As Catholics we can do the same thing. As one person said, “we are the map. They read us by the way we act and treat one another.” As mentioned earlier, it is God, not I who makes the final decision. Jesus died that all might be saved.

 

[deborahssong]

Natsclem…Greetings and thank you for info…

You said true christianity is not about feeling well(healing is from God) and prospering, and in MANY ways entails suffering and condesensions? I read that and reread that…ALthough I do agree that suffering does happen, it was never meant to be a big part of living in the power of God. How is God’s power manifested when someone is always sick, tired, and broken,because eventually the waring of sickness does that to a person…I have seen it in myself as well as others. However we have been given the power of God…to overcome the enemy in all of His ways, not just some! IF we say otherwise we are not telling all their is about our loving Savior!!! In Luke 10 He shares how the enmy comes to steal, kill, and destroy…we all know that and by the way the enemy kills…but Jesus then says…I HAVE COME to bring life…and life more abundant…of course life in heaven is abundant but do you think He just meant for heaven? come on…
In Mark 16…Jesus was telling them that they had the power within themselves to change the world…HIS! and others would to…the lives they touch and so on and on … Mark 16;17 says this …and SIGNS ( moves of the HOLY SPIRIT) WILL…WILL…WILL…FOLLOW …THOSE WHO BELIEVE…that is you and me and whomever believes…In my NAME( only in His Name, not budah, or Alah, or any other) THEY( that would be you and me) WILL cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues, they will take up serpents and if they drink anything deadly it will by no means hurt them, they will lay hands on the sick, and THEY WILL RECOVER! They…that would be any who believe in Him as their Lord and Savior hmmmm
Then look at vs 19 and 20… moves of the HOly Spirirt are to prove what Jesus said…of course there is much false, there was then also…BUt He said we will know…the truth…that means you and me should know the fake and real. He said so! and I beleive what Jesus says!!!
I have spent much of the night last night reading Pentecostal today, a catholic magazine, teaching about the power of the Holy Spirit…doesnt matter what you see…or dont see…Jesus spoke clearly of His power to change the world, not just for them but for all time…How is it that muslims are coming to the knowledge of the Lord Jeus Christ right now? in great numbers …the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith…He is, not anyone else. Actually overseas much is happening that is supernatural, that are mighty moves of God…western society has so much garbage keeping them from God…anyway my point is that I know the differnce between feelings and reality and His truth
Penetcost was not only for a moment of intense emotion…and it was that also…comeon the power of God moving thru His people like He did in that upper room? and you wouldnt be emotional…? it WAS the start of a dynamism of supernatural origin, which developed thru the CHurch’s history.
It was more than emotion,more than a dynamic religious experience or a new kind of prayer. The Holy Spirit came to equip…EQUIP… the church for mission…to extend the mission of Christ the Lord in time and space JOnh Paul the second said …The Church wishes to spread Christ’s fire!)
The end results of that upper room was this…a harvest of souls…and that mission hasnt changed…there is still a world of lost people who think they know God and to some, who dont care if He exists…a mission field to say the least…and that is still the call for all of us!!! John Paul said…the primary function of the Holy spirit is NOT to give understanding, but to give movement, not to shed light but to IMPART dynamism.
I do not despise the bishops, deacons, and elders…as I can see they were appointed positons according to scripture, they are leadership roles. The problem I have is the way in which they seem to be exalted???such formal show and such…from what I know? leaders are to be more of servants than anything else…and Jesus talked about not doing things for others to see, …exactly what the Phairsees were good at doing all of the time. In saying this I had a great friend years ago who was a priest, and I mean a powerhouse man filled with the Holy Spirit and his life exemplified what he knew in the Lord! See his life reflected what I know to understand in mark 16…a changed life…an empowered life…it was said that at the timeof his pastoring, more people converted to, and returned to the catholic church than any they had experienced at that time…move of the Holy Spirit…because it brought about Jesus’ mission…That is what I know and that is what I read and that is what I believe…Now saying that…I am cautiously moving forward… Thank you again for all of your help and info…I am most definitely on a mission…and a journey!

To Deb Chirs…thank you as well. …Acts 5; 29-39…says it best “Grant to your servants even as they speak your words, complete assurance by stretching forth your hand in cures and signs and wonders to be wokred in the Name of Jesus, your Holy Servant”…This goes right along with Mark 16…Jesus’ own words…His words still ring out and we are not to change his mission…all for HIs glory…to bring glory to HIs kingdom…Kingdom Principles…He walked them and talked them and in this Lent season, that is where I am in refection…what He did and is doing… so that I may have life…and life more abundantly…and I pray that my life is bringing glory to Him…a drastically changed life, in the Lord!! God Bless

Deborah

 

[TylerM]

     The writings of the early church fathers ...................how do you get that for sure that the catholic church is the one church....how?  I have read some of the documents, and yes I have read the Didache, and I am working on the aplogetics of Justin Martyr......yet I just dont see it.

Consider the following quotes from St. Ignatius of Antioch circa 110 AD. Keep in mind that Ignatius heard Christian teaching from St. John himself.

**Oneness of the Church, Eucharistic Unity **
(See also 1 Cor 10: 14-17)
“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism , he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine, he has no part in the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” Letter to the Philadelphians

Church Governed/United by Bishops:

“Wherefore it is fitting that you should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also you do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung. And do ye, man by man, become a choir, that being harmonious in love, and taking up the song of God in unison, you may with one voice sing to the Father through Jesus Christ, so that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. It is profitable, therefore, that you should live in an unblameable unity, that thus you may always enjoy communion with God.”
Epistle to the Ephesians

“As therefore the Lord did nothing without the Father, being united to Him, neither by Himself nor by the apostles, so neither do anything without the bishop and presbyters. Neither endeavour that anything appear reasonable and proper to yourselves apart; but being come together into the same place, let there be one prayer, one supplication, one mind, one hope, in love and in joy undefiled. There is one Jesus Christ, than whom nothing is more excellent. Therefore run together as into one temple of God, as to one altar, as to one Jesus Christ, who came forth from one Father, and is with and has gone to one.”
Epistle to the Magnesians

Primacy of Roman Church

“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the region of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, * abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.”
Epistle to the Romans

I encourage you to prayfully consider St. Ignatius’ words and what Church fits the words. God bless and I pray that your inquiry into the Fathers of the Church is fruitful!*

 

[DustinsDad]

Dustin’s Dad,
I looked at your questions a little closer. When we prayed for Fr. Burke, it was for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not his elevation. The elevation to bishop was an unexpected grace. You may notice, that I did not say we “prayed for his salvation.” As Catholics we pray for “a release of the gifts,” already received in the Sacraments. We have already received salvation at the Cross and we continue to receive God’s salvation each and every time the Mass is celebrated anywhere in the world until the end of time. Salvation for each of us individually is a process, not a one time event…

Two things - sorry for the confusion regarding the good ArchBishop - your initial post lead me to understand that the ArchBishop was partaking in the Charismatic “thing” and was “slain in the Spirit” or some such thing. My bad. But thanks for praying for him - he’ll take all the prayers he can get I’m sure!

And lastly, let us not forget to - as catholics - also, and always, to pray for salvation. We don’t believe in the Once Saved Always Saved teaching after all

Here’s how we do it at the Oratory I attend. This is a part of our regular Bendiction service before the Blessed Sacrament:
V. Let us pray for our Bishop Raymond.

R. May he stand and shepherd in Thy strength, O Lord, in the sublimity of Thy name.

V, Save Thy servant.

R. O my God, who hopeth in Thee.

V. Let us pray.

O God, Shepherd and Ruler of all Thy faithful people, look mercifully upon Thy servant Raymond, whom Thou hast chosen as shepherd to preside over Thy Church in St. Louis. Grant him, we beseech Thee, that by his word and example, he may edify those over whom he hath charge, so that together with the flock committed to him, may he attain everlasting life. Through Christ our Lord.

R. Amen.

 

[DustinsDad]

Hey folks…great answers and info…however you are all, most that is, still doing what I have the BIGGEST complaint about…and why I left the catholic church ( one of the reasons). You are still doubting what scripture has shown us over and over and over all through the bible! His presence …HIs power…and He will move however He desires…

But how can you say that? No one is saying the Holy Spirit doesn’t heal and work in people in visibly incredible ways. We are just saying that not everything visibly incredible is the Holy Spirit. The one test - the absolute test given to us by Jesus and the Apostles in Holy Mother Church and in Scripture is the gospel this Spirit preaches. The Holy Spirit won’t give two contradictory gospels…He will only work to bring everyone to the one same Gospel:Galations 1:8-9
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

My knee is STILL healed by the way…oh and I no longer have seizures! Delivered completely of that and have medical documention!

Awesome! If such was the work of the Holy Spirit, then let Him finish the work and bring you home!!!

If I had checked with the church first…

They’d have said, “Praise God! And now that He touched you in such a wonderfuol way - what are you going to do with this gift? Remain on the outside still? Or trust in this wonderful, merciful and loving God, and come back home to His Church where you can truly abide in Him and He in you.”

The fact that you are here talking with fellow Catholics, the fact that you are contemplating a return, all tells me that the you know deep in your heart that your journey is not yet complete on this side of the pearly gates…keep going, keep listening, keep praying, and always be open to Him. He won’t let you down.

And ya know - He’s so awesome, that in the end you will willingly give up both knees and accept all the seizures in the world just to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion one time…the grace therefrom last to infinity.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

…I know of one woman who is non Catholic that spends the first 3 hours of each day on her knees in prayers of love and praise thanking God for all his gifts and for all he has done, especially in dying for us on the Cross. She corrects those who are are wrong and lives the 10 Commandments strictly. While not being Catholic, she is a person I would call holy and good to the core. She praises Jesus all day even while working. She even takes in poor and the lost into her home to help them and teach them of the love of Jesus. She shows and lives a genuine love of Jesus. I see Gods love and mercy at work in her. I will let you draw your conclusions as to her salvation. Again, trust in God’s mercy, it is infinite.
Deacon Ed B

Have you invited this woman to enter the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church? Especially in light of this infallible proclamation:Pope Eugenius IV, A.D. 1431-1447, at Council of Florence
“It [the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, nor heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practised, even if he has shed [his] blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Cantate Domino, A.D. 1442)

We will be held to account for what we do and what we don’t do - what we say and what we don’t say. As an ordained person (I’m assuming you are an ordained Deacon) of the One True Church, I encourage you to do all you can to bring in those who have been separated from the flock.

If we are not to assume she is not saved, then who are you to assume that she is.

She may very well be saved in the end given certain extraordinary circumstances, but for us to let a soul wander in the wilderness apart from Holy Mother Church established by Christ* for this soul*, then perhaps our day of Judgement will be more of a shock than hers.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

…The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as “being slain (or resting) in the Spirit.” Have you read the Flowers of St. Francis? There are several stories of friars lying as if dead for days. Being slain in the Spirit would be like that. I never experienced, nor have I observed anyone else being in this state for more than a few minutes.

I haven’t read Foowers of St. Francis, but I’m aware of certain saints having the mystical experience - extasies I think they are traditionally called. My understanding is that these are things given at the discretion of the Holy Spirit to people who in no way were looking for them or seeking after them or even expecting them in any way, shape or form.

That such can be given to multitudes by some person just by pointing to or touching them or what not is rather odd - that such happens in various heretical sects throughout the world is even more suspect, the fact that such phenomena was born in these heretical sects and from them moved into the One True Church Christ founded is even moreso.

I’m sorry - it’s just an ocean or redflags out there and I’m not seeing anything concrete on which to rest my suspicions.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Dustin’s Dad - Yes I am an ordained deacon in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. It will be 17 years this year. I do not assume anyone is saved by the belief in the profession of Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and once saved always saved. Neither do I assume that one is damned because he/she is not Catholic… Rather I follow Church teaching that is outlined in the paragraphs of the CCC, which I listed earlier. Judgment of who is or is not damned is not my job… In the words of Irish Saint , Judgment is not my job. Thats for management. I am simply one of the worker servants. I do not try to judge anyones heart. I go on what I see in that person. If they live holy and good lives, I see it and say it, regardless of their faith. If we would all stop saying who is and is not going to hell, and see the good and concentrate on that good, we would, as the saying goes, attract more flies with honey than with viniger. Yes, I do invite people to come home to the Catholic Church, as the one true Church. For the rest, I rely on Gods grace working in a person and on his divine mercy which is infinite.
Deacon Ed B

 

[DustinsDad]

To Dustin’s Dad - Yes I am an ordained deacon in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. It will be 17 years this year.

Great! And thank you for serving Our Lord in His Church. I am honored to be able to talk with you on this message board.

I do not assume anyone is saved by the belief in the profession of Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and once saved always saved. Neither do I assume that one is damned because he/she is not Catholic… Rather I follow Church teaching that is outlined in the paragraphs of the CCC, which I listed earlier. Judgment of who is or is not damned is not my job… In the words of Irish Saint , Judgment is not my job. Thats for management. I am simply one of the worker servants.

Agreed and ok. But as defined in the CCC and in all previous Church teachings consistantly - there is ONE True Church, outside of which there is no salvation. They are either in Her visibly or connected to her invisibly through a combination of certain criteria that only the Good Lord can see…not us.

I do not try to judge anyones heart. I go on what I see in that person. If they live holy and good lives, I see it and say it, regardless of their faith.

Here is where we are at a disagreement - and it appears pretty significant. You say you go by what you see in that person - regardless of the faith they profess, which in a sense means regardless of the Gospel they preach! Yet this is something that you can “see”.

We can certainly hope that the person is truly invincibly and inculpably ignorant and pursuing God by responding to all the graces He is sending them and we can hope and pray that they will die in a state of Grace and thus be saved by Christ through His Church but in a state of ignorance toward Her…but that is something that only He sees and knows, not us.

But what we can see is that, objectively speaking, they are outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church and are thus cut off Christ in the Sacraments - the normative means Our Lord gave us to reach our eternal destiny with Him. Objectively speaking, their eternal souls are in grave peril. It is in no way judgmental or pharisetical to want and work toward their return to Holy Mother Church for the Glory of God and for their own eternal salvation.

If we would all stop saying who is and is not going to hell, and see the good and concentrate on that good, we would, as the saying goes, attract more flies with honey than with viniger.

I think the past 40 years has been an experiment in a certain “honey” technique that has proven rather unfruitful by any objective look. I think the truth - the whole truth - has to be proclaimed in no uncertain terms - even if it means getting a pie in the face once in a while.

As an example of an authentic “honey” technique, I would submit St. Francis de Sales’ work, which won many a soul back to Holy Mother Church (from the heresy of Calvanism if memory serves me correctly here) with the philosophy of “Preach the Truth in Charity” (or something like that). But the truth he preached was the full truth, unabashed and unafraid, and not a l"ooking the other way" on the errors of said heretical group.

Yes, I do invite people to come home to the Catholic Church, as the one true Church. For the rest, I rely on Gods grace working in a person and on his divine mercy which is infinite.
Deacon Ed B

I’m confused by this statement - do you mean you invite all people home to the Catholic Church, or just some people? I hope it’s all - but if it’s only some, what criteria do you have that leads you not to invite them to Christ’s Church?

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Dustin’s Dad In response, let me quote 3 paragraphs from the CCC.
# 817 "In fact, "in this one and only Church of God, from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy and schism - do not occur without human sin.
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

#818 - However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities {that resulted from such separations} and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers of the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

# 819 - Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church; the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to Catholic unity."

I think if you reflect upon this, you will come to broader understanding of salvation and the infiniteness of Gods divine mercy and love
Deacon Ed B

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Great! And thank you for serving Our Lord in His Church. I am honored to be able to talk with you on this message board.

Agreed and ok. But as defined in the CCC and in all previous Church teachings consistantly - there is ONE True Church, outside of which there is no salvation. They are either in Her visibly or connected to her invisibly through a combination of certain criteria that only the Good Lord can see…not us.

Here is where we are at a disagreement - and it appears pretty significant. You say you go by what you see in that person - regardless of the faith they profess, which in a sense means regardless of the Gospel they preach! Yet this is something that you can “see”.

We can certainly hope that the person is truly invincibly and inculpably ignorant and pursuing God by responding to all the graces He is sending them and we can hope and pray that they will die in a state of Grace and thus be saved by Christ through His Church but in a state of ignorance toward Her…but that is something that only He sees and knows, not us.

But what we can see is that, objectively speaking, they are outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church and are thus cut off Christ in the Sacraments - the normative means Our Lord gave us to reach our eternal destiny with Him. Objectively speaking, their eternal souls are in grave peril. It is in no way judgmental or pharisetical to want and work toward their return to Holy Mother Church for the Glory of God and for their own eternal salvation.

I think the past 40 years has been an experiment in a certain “honey” technique that has proven rather unfruitful by any objective look. I think the truth - the whole truth - has to be proclaimed in no uncertain terms - even if it means getting a pie in the face once in a while.

As an example of an authentic “honey” technique, I would submit St. Francis de Sales’ work, which won many a soul back to Holy Mother Church (from the heresy of Calvanism if memory serves me correctly here) with the philosophy of “Preach the Truth in Charity” (or something like that). But the truth he preached was the full truth, unabashed and unafraid, and not a l"ooking the other way" on the errors of said heretical group.

I’m confused by this statement - do you mean you invite all people home to the Catholic Church, or just some people? I hope it’s all - but if it’s only some, what criteria do you have that leads you not to invite them to Christ’s Church?

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad