Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Dustin’s Dad
In my response #201 when I said “for the rest” I did not mean I ignore other people. What I meant was there are times we must be silent and let the Holy Spirit do his part. For the honey, it means not brow beating, but giving facts, correctly and then give the other person time to reflect. Telling them they are going to hell will not help, but usually only alienate the other person. Somehow I have not figured how to tell a person in a loving way that he/she is going to hell.
Deacon Ed B

 

[DustinsDad]

…In my response #201 when I said “for the rest” I did not mean I ignore other people. What I meant was there are times we must be silent and let the Holy Spirit do his part.

Okay

…For the honey, it means not brow beating, but giving facts, correctly and then give the other person time to reflect.

That always goes - brow beating is never an option. Somehow, however, speaking the fullness of the Gospel has been turned into browbeating.

But was Pope Pius XI “browbeating” when he wrote Mortalium Animos? Or Pius XII when he wrote Mystici Corporis Christi? Or indeed was Holy Mother Church browbeating at the Council of Trent or at any other time an anethema was issued
(includeing in Scripture)?

…Telling them they are going to hell will not help, but usually only alienate the other person. Somehow I have not figured how to tell a person in a loving way that he/she is going to hell.
Deacon Ed B

I can appreciate your difficulty - but it seemed to have worked pretty well for the first two millenia or so. How have conversions been going since we went “nice”???

In the end, it is simply difficulty of the Gospel - the offence of the Gospel as it’s been called. Objectively speaking, going by what we can objectively see…Hell is where those who reject the One Holy Catholic Church go. That is plain and simple Truth. He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me…that sort of thing.

To dance around this issue is to misrepresent the Catholic faith. Most folks outside the Church* do know* that this is Church teaching - or at least “used to be”. And now your silence (or even direct contradiction of the traditional teaching - albeit well intentioned) on the matter will be taken by them to mean that the Church can and does change it’s dogmas…which makes conversion pretty much meaningless. Why? Because if the Church changes truth, then the Church ain’t what the Church says it is in the first place.

I’ll address your post above - the references to the current CCC - in my next post. Gotta run to the store.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

To Dustin’s Dad In response, let me quote 3 paragraphs from the CCC.

Thanks, but before we look at this from the catechism - let us both remember this infallible canon from Vatican I - since it well let us know which “side to fall on” when an ambiguity arises:

“If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which is different from that which the church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.”

817 "In fact, "in this one and only Church of God, from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy and schism - do not occur without human sin.​

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

Okay - this paragraph doesn’t really say anything at all regarding EENS - aside from introducing a novel concept of “degrees of communion” with the One True Church…something that sounds rather positive and harmless on the surface, but in the end, what does it mean?

If there is no salvation outside the Church (which is a defined dogma) then does something other than full communion result in something other than full salvation? And are there degrees of salvation? This is something that I think the Holy See has yet to really tackle head on - yet it is begging for clarification and just kind of left hanging there as a positive unoffensive sounding platitude.

#818 - However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities {that resulted from such separations} and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers of the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

And as I’ve brought up before on EENS threads, this paragraph talks about the “sin of separation”. It says absolutely nothing of the sin of “remaining separated” - of holding as true the condemned anathemas of the Council of Trent after they have reached the age of reason and after they have heard (and subsequently rejected) the invitation to the Fullness of Truth and the call to enter Holy Mother Church.

You see, at some point in time, those innocent children born outside Holy Mother Church and brought up in protestant households make a determination on whether to enter or to remain separated from Christ’s One True Church. The choice could happen in an instant. Could happen after much deliberation. Either way, this passage doesn’t not talk about this reality.

Strangely - it does not mention the problem of one leaving the Catholic Church to join a protestant sect, of which, such a person would be objectively guilty of the “sin of separation” - yet how many get really alarmed and concerned for the eternal soul of another when they leave for this heretical group or that? Did you get concerned at all when somone on this board mentioned that she left the Church many years ago? Or is it no biggie?

See, it’s a slippery sloap toward religious indifferentism when we start graying the areas of defined dogma.

(continued below…)

 

[DustinsDad]

(continued from above…)

819 - Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church; the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to Catholic unity."​

This can be taken two ways - one is that all of these sects can more or less save someone depending on how much Catholic truth they have retained. And we are all more or less on our way to Heaven, particular doctrinal points are more or less side issues. We catholics are driving a Cadillac to Heaven, but the other sects have pretty nice Tauruses and Focuses as well.

The other way, and more inline with the traditional teaching of the Church, is that those elements of truth these various groups have retained are salvific precisely because in and of themselves, as properly belonging to Christ’s Catholic Church in the first place, they are calls (invitations) to Catholic unity. That is, inasumuch as these elements of truth bring the person home to Holy Mother church, they are salvific.

Yet, if a person is raised and surrounded by these “calls to Catholic unity” all their life and never respond to them - are they more or less culpable on judgement day?

And for the inculpably ignorant, I think the Catechism of Pope Pius X said it clearly and charitably enough:
29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

I think if you reflect upon this, you will come to broader understanding of salvation and the infiniteness of Gods divine mercy and love

My only concern is that in the name of a “broader understanding of salvation and the infiniteness of God’s divine mercy and love” we contradict what our infinitely loving and infinitely merciful God has already clearly and explicitly told us.

And that is what so many feel - in addition to the strange behavior and the seeming ignoring of certain Biblical and traditional guidelines concerning charisms - is a problem with the Charismatic movement…that is a very strong undercurrent of religious indifferentism.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[deborahssong]

Dustins dad,

Where in the world do you get ALLLLLLLof your information? I mean I am just at a loss for words…however I am going to continue in this communication anyway…I am truly trying to soak in what you are saying about the catholic church in general…and by the way? I believe I can receive all of what God has for me in the Eucharist…WITHOUT having seizures again. Trust me that is not something I want to ever go through again…Now if I were giving anyone other than God credit for healing? however that isnt at all the case. I give God all of the glory and I do beleive that He has raised me up FOR a purpose…to tell and or give testimony to His power which works within us (Christians).
By the way I have spent much of the day, studying and reading the Epistle of St Clements, and a book written by Bruce Sullivan called Fullness in Christ.(evangelical converted to catholicism) By the way? I am using the Revised Standard catholic bible…I am so drawn to this search about the TRUE church that I am just engaged in a constant search of evidence…and dont you know there is much for me to research! I will say this much…I am BEGINNING to see the AUTHORITY of the catholic church…I mean it was like a V-8 moment for real!!! My husband was so intrigued today by my zeal about this…he said you really have been searching deep havent you? and i said to him…the more I read the deeper I get…and I want to know more…What I am also learning in much dismay…is that most christians do NOT know what they believe…they go totally upon someone telling them…and quite frankly? That aint good enough! That is why I am searching in the first place. In the past ten years I have been under two chrurches and left both because of grave error…just seen so much fly by night stuff all in the name of Jesus!
The writings of the early fathers in which I am reading right now…just reinterated what the apostle Paul taught about christian living! To the Corinthian church, who by the way were full of so much garbage…and yet…Paul called them christians…brethern…and they were resorting to old ways! That intrigued me…and this light came on…they were in danger of never attaining the Kingdom of God…and they were in the church…hmmm who preaches that truth today? I absolutely do not believe in once saved always saved…Paul says otherwise…
In much of my experince I have seeb the teacher teach what he/she has learned from someone with his/hers views…never teaching what another may say about them…this is how I feel about the catholic church or the protestant church for that matter…there is so much garbage out there about both! I WILL ADMITT that I saw clearly today that the instructions Jesus gave were to the apostles FIRST! There must have been a reason for that…ya think? To establish a foundation for a church? I see that… I actually see that in my heart and mind…I NEVER ever looked at it like I did today! Trust me this has been a day!!! However I still believe that scripture is all true…and I found out today that so does the catholic church…they DO BASE their dogma, their canon, on the Sacred Scriptures! THAT is, in what I have studied thus far…
My search is only beginning however I am so drawn to this that I am in such a great mood all of the time!!! Like my encounter with Jesus 24 years ago…I am alarmed and at the same time I am excited and enlightened, and so many different feelings at ONE time! The very power of the Holy Spirit is responsible for teaching us HIs truth! wow Dustins dad…A move of the Holy Spirit?.. as far as slain in the spirit…I have never liked that particular phrase…I know what it is to not be able to stand when the presence of the Lord is …however as I have repeated over and over…there is fake out there as well…I have seen it in the catholic church as well as others…but I have seen the real deal as well…and I praise the Lord that I do not have to give up what I know and have experienced, to return to the catholic church! The whole puporse of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are to grow the Kingdom of God and that is scriptural…for evangelistic purposes…Never for entertainment or social acceptance…within the church…only for Gods glory! I love Mark 16…anyway I am getting off on a tangent…and probably due to so much studying!!! By faith in Jesus we ARE changed forever…amen? God Bless…talk to you all tomorrow!

Deborah

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Dustin’s Dad - Take what you read in the CCC as official Roman Catholic Teaching, because that is what it is. What I see, sense, think, is that it does not fit with your understanding of Church teaching. A broader understanding does not mean you are abandoning past teaching. It simply mens what it says. Its like someone saying Vatican II is wrong because we are taking a fresh look at ourselves and re-explaining things in a new light. All this does is give a deeper understanding. As for degrees of communion, it means what it says. Pure and simple. It also means the meaning of Church is broader than what some think. If that comes from the Magisterium, that is good enough for me. As for people leaving the Church, we have to look at the reason. If they leave because they do not like it’s teaching, that is one thing. If they left because they may have been abused because of the scandal that has plagued the Church, and were molested by a wayward Priest I would severely question whether the sin is theirs or the priest’s. What we are saying Dustin’s Dad is that God is infinite in his mercy and justice and wisdom and can read one’s heart, in its pain, confusion and fear. He does not simply apply some litmus test with a pass fail judgment. He is bigger and greater than that. Such actions on the part of priests can and do affect the decision of whether one should return or not. Again, not simply a litmus test. Salvation is not achieved by simply holding up a sheet of check lists with a yes or no. God has the ability to read hearts, and souls as we never can or could be able to do. I would rather have a God like that as my judge. That said, to all who are reading this, I say, come home to the Catholic Church and be welcom and embraced. If we were all looking for a Church with perfect people, they would all remain empty.
God Bless
Deacon Ed B

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

In my last post, in the 6th to last line, it reads, “if one should”. This is incorrect, it should read, "if one could." Sorry for the mistake.
Deacon Ed B

 

[DustinsDad]

…Where in the world do you get ALLLLLLLof your information?

Me? I’m just an average joe catholic guy in the pew. Maybe because I’m half Italian and half German it’s causes some sort of passionate-stubborn hybrid that materializes on these threads

…I believe I can receive all of what God has for me in the Eucharist…WITHOUT having seizures again. Trust me that is not something I want to ever go through again…

I understand completely and agree with you of course! I was just saying that the awesomeness of the Truth - of God Himself - is so huge and total, that it’s worth all the sufferings and trials and tribulations we undergoe here in this blink of an eye. Intellectually, this is something we as Christians know…it’s much harder to live it. I speak from experience in that department, believe me!

But that’s what all those Saints are there for - to show us the way to really and truly endure under the various crosses we bear to totally die to self and live for the Lord and actually rejoice in our sufferings for His sake and for the sake of His body the Church. Easier said than done…but by His grace…

…My search is only beginning however I am so drawn to this that I am in such a great mood all of the time!!! Like my encounter with Jesus 24 years ago…I am alarmed and at the same time I am excited and enlightened, and so many different feelings at ONE time! The very power of the Holy Spirit is responsible for teaching us HIs truth! wow Dustins dad…A move of the Holy Spirit?..

You bet

…By faith in Jesus we ARE changed forever…amen?

AMEN!

And peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DebChris]

I haven’t read Foowers of St. Francis, but I’m aware of certain saints having the mystical experience - extasies I think they are traditionally called. My understanding is that these are things given at the discretion of the Holy Spirit to people who in no way were looking for them or seeking after them or even expecting them in any way, shape or form.

That such can be given to multitudes by some person just by pointing to or touching them or what not is rather odd - that such happens in various heretical sects throughout the world is even more suspect, the fact that such phenomena was born in these heretical sects and from them moved into the One True Church Christ founded is even moreso.

I’m sorry - it’s just an ocean or redflags out there and I’m not seeing anything concrete on which to rest my suspicions.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

To be slain in the Spirit is not something that somebody seeks. It is as you state, given at the discretion of the Holy Spirit. It does not usually happen during the Baptism of the Spirit.
I had also wanted to point out earlier, that there are many persons in authority who are also members of the Charismatic Renewal. Archbishop Burke is only one. Scott Hahn is another. Ralph Martin, wrote the Coming Darkness as a call to repentance. Satan does not want repentance. Repentance means not only a renunciation of sin, but a willingness to turn our lives to Christ. That is what the Charismatic Renewal is about. It is a lifelong conversion process. We do not give ourselves to those who pray for us. We give our lives to Jesus Christ. There are specific books written about the pentecostal experience. Most books written by Charismatics simply have the person’s name as the author without any mention of their affiliation with the renewal.
Each of us is under the leadership of the bishop of whichever diocese we reside. We are first of all Catholic.
Again, check the ICCS site posted earlier. The Charismatic Renewal, along with other movements of the Holy Spirit has the blessing of the Holy See. It is something that is bigger than any one of us. You can also take a *Life in the Spirit *seminar. Nothing says you have to finish it, if you still feel uncomfortable. Don’t be afraid to see what the bishops and popes have to say.
As for the phenomenon taking place outside the Catholic Church, how many times did Jesus reach out to Samaritans and others who were not a part of the Jewish people? How many times did he use the faith of gentiles to teach?

 

[DustinsDad]

To Dustin’s Dad - Take what you read in the CCC as official Roman Catholic Teaching, because that is what it is. What I see, sense, think, is that it does not fit with your understanding of Church teaching…

I think this is where we have difficulty, precisely because some of what is in the CCC and some of what is written in the essays of VII can too easily be taken in more than one way…that is, there are ambiguities in there. When they can be taken in more than one way, we must take them in the way that is consistant with the way they’ve always been understood.

As for degrees of communion, it means what it says. Pure and simple. It also means the meaning of Church is broader than what some think.

Okay - but is your new understanding “broader” than what all the people in the Church thought for 2000 years and what the Church infallibly defined as such? If you take it the way you (and a ton of folks these days) read it, then it changes the doctrine of the Church Herself…the very understanding of the nature of the Church is now different and contradictory to what it was before. I mean, if Pope Pius XII - the Vicar of Christ - can write and officially teach for the church in no unambiguous terms: “…It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.”
Are we now to say, “oops”, an ambiguous statement must be read in such a way as to contradict him and all the other popes and saints down through the ages? You are asking alot my friend - and with all due respect. I hope you see the problem and difficulty here.

If that comes from the Magisterium, that is good enough for me.

I understand that - but it looks like you are taking an ambiguous statement and using it to thwart and overtern previous clear-cut statements. I’m saying if it’s ambiguious, read it in light of the previous clear statements - don’t read it and throw the previous clear statements in the trash-bin. Contradicting ourselves won’t win converts - and even the appearance of contradiction when none have been formally proclaimed can cause grave scandal and lead to religious indifferentism and the loss of faith.

…What we are saying Dustin’s Dad is that God is infinite in his mercy and justice and wisdom and can read one’s heart, in its pain, confusion and fear. He does not simply apply some litmus test with a pass fail judgment. He is bigger and greater than that. Such actions on the part of priests can and do affect the decision of whether one should return or not. Again, not simply a litmus test. Salvation is not achieved by simply holding up a sheet of check lists with a yes or no. God has the ability to read hearts, and souls as we never can or could be able to do. I would rather have a God like that as my judge.

I understand all that - and the Church understood all that for 1960-some odd years - this isn’t some new insight that we just came up with a few decades ago. And it’s all contained in all the previous and clearly defined teachings of the Church - no need to remake or reformulate the Church to fit a now “suddenly” merciful God.

I mean - the Church* is* the result of God’s mercy - no? Is there anything more He could have done for us and yet chose not to do? Anything He could have given us but withheld?

I mean, it seems like you are building up a false dichtomy between the Churches teaching of EENS and God’s mercy when I don’t think there is one.

The cold hard reality is the sins of one person (say a person or priest within the Church) can lead another into sin. All will be taken into account on Judgement Day. But we cannot assume that a person who leaves the Church on the account of another person’s sins wasn’t given at some time and in some way the grace to stay or re-enter. If we know that Christ desires the Salvation of all men, and if we know that normatively speaking their is no salvation outsideof the Church, then we must assume and believe and trust that God gives these people the grace to stay in or find their way back to that Church.

Maybe that grace is us…and our mouths and actions. And as I said before, if we fail to respond to that grace of God to bring these folks back in - maybe they’ll be given the pass…but we will have to answer for our neglect. All of us - myself included. Believe me, I too live in this messed up pluralistic society where the pressures to “get along” and “not offend” take it’s toll and unduly influence when I speak and when I sit on my hands like a mute.

Lord have mercy on us all!

That said, to all who are reading this, I say, come home to the Catholic Church and be welcom and embraced. If we were all looking for a Church with perfect people, they would all remain empty.
God Bless
Deacon Ed B

Amen to that and couldn’t agree with you more!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Dustin’s Dad - I just read your post, and I am on the way out to to to 5PM mass. I will answer in detail at my next opportunity. I sense we are going in the same direction. Will remember you at mass.
Deacon Ed B

 

[deborahssong]

Great words Deb Chris! and Dustin’s dad

  Dustins dad........I am NOT there yet with this suffering issue.......I am researching that one.......oh of course I KNOW that suffering comes........but I do not beleive that we have to ....say bask in it?   ALl of the chruch fathers suffered yes....but for the sake of the gospel.....Paul suffered yes you bet and yes physically , but from wounds he received from serving the Lord Jesus!   Please allow me to explain.......the whole time I was critcally ill my heart and thoughts were about walking by faith thru the crisis and belieivng by faith for my healing....and that is where i focused......I also know that some of my catholic family were prayng for my healing as well. So though suffering  came...I sure wasnt desiring to stay there and yes, I tried desperately NOT to complain while I was in it!  Now if that is what you mean by suffering then I am there........I just do not see where sickness and disease is something God wants us to have......not since Jesus!
 Healing is for all who believe........Jesus didnt just deliver s few from that power.......His death and resurrection made it possible...to believe HIM for healing......there is more scripture about walking in the WHOLENESS of God, the favor of God, the peace of God, the deliverance of God, and on and on than there is suffering.   Jesus sufferd for the sake of man(reedmption)  to restore us back to HIs father, Our father our creator...that is why He suffered and so shall we...for the sake of the gospel yes!  There is no way we can suffer and undertsand what He went thru????  I dont thiink so

…as I have estudied the way in which He was beaten according to ROMAN law, the way in which He had his beard yanked out, and on and on…then oh my goodness…His crucifixion? I do not beleive ANY of us could do that and live!!! As ill as I was in 1990-95, and I so remember that all too well…I still do not beleive that what I lived thru could in any way be compared to His suffering. My goodness…the entire sin of the WORLD HE felt, He experienced, and He is PURE>…sinless…blameless…can you imagine that? I sure cant. It is of great importance that I search and understand that…as that is a hurdle for me…probably because I have been totally healed from some serious stuff! And He is NOT a repector of persons…anyway maybe you can enlighten me here…and by the way? youyr just pew sitter…I think not…maybe a dramatically informed pew sitter…however remember… that Paul said God’s wisdom will confound ( that means TRIP them up!) the wise!!!

Deb Cris…great explanation! The move of the Holy Spirit is for all who will receive!!! Scripture says so…and that is enough for me…and by the way I am readng another book guys! Have I read and studied or what!! but I love it and I am learning and slowly my eyes are opening…God Bless all.

Deborah

 

[DustinsDad]

…I had also wanted to point out earlier, that there are many persons in authority who are also members of the Charismatic Renewal. Archbishop Burke is only one.

Is Archbishop involved in this movement? I respect him very, very much to say the least. I am very interested in what he has to say on the matter.

…As for the phenomenon taking place outside the Catholic Church, how many times did Jesus reach out to Samaritans and others who were not a part of the Jewish people? How many times did he use the faith of gentiles to teach?

Good point that made me stop and think for a bit. I would only point out that the faith once identified and used to teach was the true faith in Jesus Christ and - we have to imagine even if not spelled out clearly in each case - these peopel became members of the Once True Church upon being given and demonstrating faith in Our Lord…they were never left to wander about “on their own” apart from Christ.

We can learn much from the sincere faith of some individuals outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church - but if that faith ultimately leads anywhere but Holy Mother Church, is it true faith? I don’t know - there’s invincible and inculpable ignorance that comes into play of course. And the Lord reads the hearts. So we take it on a case by case basis based on what we see and hear I guess. Deep stuff here.

Regarding the Charismatic movement - I would say that it would be one thing if such phenomena was leading to mass conversions to the One True Church - but is it? Or does it tend reafirm people “where they are”. On the whole, from what I’ve heard and seen and read - it seems more a conversion in the opposite direction. Many in the Charismatic movement eventually get drawn out of the Church, no?

And again - this is not to say that there are not devout, sincere, truly devoted and 100% on fire for the Lord and the Church catholics within the movement. I know there are - some of them are “close to home” so to speak - very close . But I’m talking as a whole. And even in the conversations I’ve had with these folks have shown me that within the movement themselves, they’ve seen alot of catholic folks get involved in it and then eventually leave the Church, but not many actual conversions (if any) from the outside in.

Strange.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DebChris]

The following is fromThe United States Catechism for Adults:

When we recognize the charisms and ministries which help build the Church, we also understand that it is the Holy Spirit providing us with the leadership we need (p.106).

Special graces or charisms, while given to individuals, are meant for the common good of the Church (p. 329).

…there is a quality seemingly unique to our culture that moves millions of our people to seek an immediate experience of God. This is most evident in the focus on the Holy Spirit across a wide spectrum of Christian believers. In the Catholic Church, a devotion to the Holy Spirit is evident in movements such as Charismatic Renewal, Marriage Encounter, Cursillo, TEC (Teens Encounter Christ), and similar outpourings of faith (p. 107).

Prayer groups such as those sponsored by Charismatic Renewal, Cursillo, Marriage Encounter, and Teens for Christ have both a strong liturgical foundation as well as a devotional component (p.297).

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

Based on feelings, emotionalism and experience, Baptism in the Spirit and the Outpouring of the Spirit stand at the core of Charismaticism, by which spirit empowerment is achieved. It has recently been called an “unleashing of the spirit” and is considered to be a manifestation that the individual has received the Baptism in the Spirit.
What does this mean? It means the overcoming of all psycho-social inhibitions and barriers which protect the individual from unacceptable social and immoral behavior. Charismatics maintain that spirit empowerment results in the elimination of rigidity and inhibitions that can stifle spiritual energies. Consequently, the line of defense against our deep inner impulses to act out is weakened. The liberation of physic resources from within the unconscious into the consciousness of the individual is not well-known and can have traumatic effects on the person’s psyche, on his personality and on interpersonal group dynamics which are operable in Charismatic prayer meetings.
Built-in psycho-social inhibitions are healthy and necessary, and by preventing an individual from acting out, it helps him not to sin. The normal person discerns the line beyond which actions become morally unacceptable, either internally or externally. To the degree that psychological restraints are weakened, to that degree are the passions excited. Before enslaving men, Satan first frees them from their psychological complexes and then liberates them from all psychological restraints to bring them under his yoke. Liberation and empowerment open the door for Satan to enter. It is known that at Charismatic prayer meetings there have been occurrences of diabolic manifestations which have alarmed both leaders and participants.
Liberation and empowerment, of which the Charismatic man boasts, are contrary to the virtue of humility, because they foster a sense of self-reliance and pride. On the contrary, liberation and empowerment do not strengthen faith; rather we see it as a sort of psychic drug that eventually will cause the degradation of the faith and the mental well-being of individuals.

 Furthermore, the so-called Baptism of the Spirit and the empowerment that accompanies it place the individual at a spiritual and psychological risk, because he then becomes vulnerable to both internal and external suggestions.  His sense of judgment is impaired, and consequently he is rendered unable to distinguish wheat from chaff, light from heat, and the authentic from the counterfeit.

read more of this article here:
ourworld.compuserve.com/HOMEPAGES/REMNANT/slain.htm

christianorder.com/features/features_2000/features_feb00.html

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

Thirty years ago my husbandand I were involved with Charismatic Renewal, in the North West of England, eucumenically initially, then also in our own Church (RC). I was challenged by Christians of many denominations some of whom told us we couldn’t be RC and Christian or - they belonged to a Bible Church, implying the Roman Catholic Church was not a Bible Church, always charitable though. I didn’t feel able to meet the Scriptural challenge so set about correcting my lack of knowledge. I discovered Scott Hahn; read the Early Church Fathers (William Jurgens three volume commentary with cross references to Scripture and Church teaching); then Church history and lives of the saints; Cardinal Newman’s essay on Development of Doctrine. Reading lives of the saints is still ongoing and I have discovered a wonderful mosaic of the revelation of the Holy Spirit to the Church as Jesus promised, especially Our Lady’s role in Salvation History the “Woman” of Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12:1; Cana and the Cross. It is She who will crush the head of the “serpent” as shown on the Miraculous Medal. Having attended five out of eight Symposia on Marian Co-Redemption, I am convinced that the devotion to the Alliance of the Two Hearts (of Jesus and Mary) taught by Pope John Paul II is the most powerful devotion after the Holy Mass in the spiritual armoury against satan’s final onslaught against the Church. There is tension within renewal though. Some Charismatic prayer groups ban the Rosary claiming that such devotions are a return to traditional piety and are therefore not open to the Holy Spirit, which is nonsense of course, as it is the Holy Spirit who revealed the devotions and God doesn’t change His mind or backtrack.The extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit have always been manifested in the Church but the good thing about Charismatic Renewal is the praying together of many Christians of other denominations. I personally experienced healing of depression and paranoia through many attendances at Healing services and Masses.

 

[natsclem]

Thirty years ago my husbandand I were involved with Charismatic Renewal, in the North West of England, eucumenically initially, then also in our own Church (RC). I was challenged by Christians of many denominations some of whom told us we couldn’t be RC and Christian or - they belonged to a Bible Church, implying the Roman Catholic Church was not a Bible Church, always charitable though. I didn’t feel able to meet the Scriptural challenge so set about correcting my lack of knowledge. I discovered Scott Hahn; read the Early Church Fathers (William Jurgens three volume commentary with cross references to Scripture and Church teaching); then Church history and lives of the saints; Cardinal Newman’s essay on Development of Doctrine. Reading lives of the saints is still ongoing and I have discovered a wonderful mosaic of the revelation of the Holy Spirit to the Church as Jesus promised, especially Our Lady’s role in Salvation History the “Woman” of Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12:1; Cana and the Cross. It is She who will crush the head of the “serpent” as shown on the Miraculous Medal. Having attended five out of eight Symposia on Marian Co-Redemption, I am convinced that the devotion to the Alliance of the Two Hearts (of Jesus and Mary) taught by Pope John Paul II is the most powerful devotion after the Holy Mass in the spiritual armoury against satan’s final onslaught against the Church. There is tension within renewal though. Some Charismatic prayer groups ban the Rosary claiming that such devotions are a return to traditional piety and are therefore not open to the Holy Spirit, which is nonsense of course, as it is the Holy Spirit who revealed the devotions and God doesn’t change His mind or backtrack.The extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit have always been manifested in the Church but the good thing about Charismatic Renewal is the praying together of many Christians of other denominations. I personally experienced healing of depression and paranoia through many attendances at Healing services and Masses.

I myself had joined a charismatic group lead by a Franciscan priest in the Philippines. This group even has its own religious community of brothers and sisters. Great enthusiasm for Christ characterized us. Aside from weekly prayer rally, we regularly met for prayer–praise and worship and for deliverance (we exorcise the devil from world). As for me, all is well except that we had studies on Sundays with often Bible fundamentalists as teachers on the Scripture and the effective methods of preaching. There were no repudiation of Catholic doctrines by these teachers; so, the studies were to me generally acceptable. However, in one of the meetings (among us the brothers and sisters) our Franciscan founder confided to us that he doesn’t believe in the transubstantiation and that he celebrates Mass to be able to attract Catholics. This made me re-think my position. I did not separate from them abruptly. For several weeks, I stayed with them and continued my preaching among prayer communities in various localities of metropolitan Manila. Our Franciscan founder in his Masses would repudiate a Catholic doctrine in a split second inserted in his sermon without elaboration while the people are swaying their hands and bodies in the act of praise and worship. Among the doctrines he repudiated were Purgatory and the role of Mama Mary during his regular Charismatic Mass. I did not confront him. What I did was to defend the doctrine when I was preaching in prayer communities using the Scriptures as counter-arguments and exhorted them to believe in the Word of God and that they should not believe contrary teaching even of their revered Franciscan founder. I guess, the scriptural argument alone (I did not even assert the constant teachings of the Church) worked well for no one questioned me even my companion brother. I also reported the Protestantism of the father to the bishop in-charge of the charismatic renewal before I left them. I handed to him some tape-records of his preachings. But, I guess, there was no action since the Franciscan father is still at large doing his “mission”.

I entertained the possibility of the Holy Spirit working beyond mere formulas and rules of discipline but I cannot accept that He would be in people who repudiate the teachings of the Church. I could also hardly accept that the Holy Spirit would be in any group that does not end in becoming united to one Church founded by Christ on Peter.

 

[DustinsDad]

…Dustins dad…I am NOT there yet with this suffering issue…I am researching that one…oh of course I KNOW that suffering comes…but I do not beleive that we have to …say bask in it?

I’m there with ya - I know, I struggle with it too - big time. I think it’s totaly normal and and natural (and not sinful) for us to want to be free from suffering.

There is just something supernatural going on with many of the saints - something above the normal. Can be with us too - when we can pray like Our Lord in the garden…"but not my will but Your’s be done"…totally trusting that if He allows the suffering to continue, He is allowing the suffering for a reason, and we offer it up in union with the Cross and give it to Him. He may take the merit and grace from that instant and apply it to a sick child on the other side of the planet, a soul in purgatory, or your kid who has a stomachache…who knows? I think we will on the other side, but for right now…we trust in Him.

With alot of the saints, they are so close to God it’s almost like they see through the veil of this world and can actually rejoice in their sufferings because they know and trust Our Lord in ways above and beyond the norm. Hey, it’s something for us to shoot for eh! We’re all called to be saints.

… ALL of the chruch fathers suffered yes…but for the sake of the gospel…Paul suffered yes you bet and yes physically , but from wounds he received from serving the Lord Jesus!

Interesting you say that…I went to confession a while back with a priest where I accused myself of “grumbling under the cross” with all the little (and big) trials and tribulations going on in my life - you know, instead of patiently enduring them for the Lord and trusting and hoping in Him for the big ones, letting them “get to me” in bad ways and slipping into a little bit of despair here and their…losing hope. To my surprise, he said that those things weren’t the cross Our Lord spoke of…very similar to what you are saying… Now I can see what you mean in a strict sense.

But the concept of offering your whole life up for Jesus, all the good and all the bad - including all the suffering and trials and tribulations and frustrations and dissapointments of this life. I mean, if we can’t offer them up for the Lord - I’d go nuts.

Anyway, I was kind of perplexed by the whole thing, and then I read this in Pope Benedict’s latest encyclical:
40. I would like to add here another brief comment with some relevance for everyday living. There used to be a form of devotion—perhaps less practised today but quite widespread not long ago—that included the idea of “offering up” the minor daily hardships that continually strike at us like irritating “jabs”, thereby giving them a meaning. Of course, there were some exaggerations and perhaps unhealthy applications of this devotion, but we need to ask ourselves whether there may not after all have been something essential and helpful contained within it. What does it mean to offer something up? Those who did so were convinced that they could insert these little annoyances into Christ’s great “com-passion” so that they somehow became part of the treasury of compassion so greatly needed by the human race. In this way, even the small inconveniences of daily life could acquire meaning and contribute to the economy of good and of human love. Maybe we should consider whether it might be judicious to revive this practice ourselves.
(Spe Salvi, 40)
Now for the BIG things - like what you must have been undergoing - I understand that too, it’s in a different ball park I know. I’ve got one huge one of those going on right now (involves my son) and a couple other ones close to it. Like I said earlier, it’s a very, eh, challenging time in my life right now. For those, we pray, pray and pray. A lot of masses offered for those intentions, alot of novenas, put ‘em on a lot of different prayer lists and groups, and just a constant “storming of heaven” so to speak with this. And* try, try, try* not to lose hope and fall into despair. And if I do…it’s apologize for the lack of faith and trust and hope and back on the ol’ knees.

And yet even with this - at the end of the day - even with the biggest of crisis and the greatest of sufferings…in the end, it’s…“but not my will, but Your’s be done.” I’m trying to learn it. I’m trying to live it. And it isn’t easy. But without Him…it’d be impossible.

(Continued…)

 

[DustinsDad]

(continued…)

Please allow me to explain…the whole time I was critcally ill my heart and thoughts were about walking by faith thru the crisis and belieivng by faith for my healing…and that is where i focused…I also know that some of my catholic family were prayng for my healing as well. So though suffering came…I sure wasnt desiring to stay there and yes, I tried desperately NOT to complain while I was in it! Now if that is what you mean by suffering then I am there…I just do not see where sickness and disease is something God wants us to have…not since Jesus!

Well, I know Jesus doesn’t want us to suffer (in fact, I think He loves us so much that when we suffer, He’s right there with us suffering with us), but He does sometimes* allow* it. Even with the worst of suffering, he can bring a greater good out of it. Thing is, oftentimes that greater good won’t be seen by us on this side of heaven. Oftentimes, the greater good is precisely that which is given on the other side. Now waiting until the other side to see it…*that *takes supernatural faith.

Healing is for all who believe…Jesus didnt just deliver s few from that power…His death and resurrection made it possible…to believe HIM for healing…there is more scripture about walking in the WHOLENESS of God, the favor of God, the peace of God, the deliverance of God, and on and on than there is suffering.

Ummmm, I don’t know about where you’re going with this. Someone once said Jesus didn’t come here to remove all suffering on this side of Heaven - He came to *sanctify *it. Redemptive suffering…that sort of thing.

This goes to the core of a deep nagging question in the human heart - why do good people suffer? It’s a question at least as old as the book of Job. It’s a great mystery - still is in a lot of ways…but what we do know is that through it all, God can bring a greater good out of it.

Can we pray to be relieved of our suffering - you bet! And the big one’s - you bet even more. We should just understand that if the Lord says no to that prayer, or not yet anyway…He may just have something better in store for us by letting us undergo it - we’ve got to trust Him even when we don’t understand His ways sometimes. Or as I’ve always told my son when bad things happen…“The Lord sees around corners that we can’t…everything happens for a reason.” Funny, I told him that when he was younger, now he reminds me of it more often than not!

Jesus sufferd for the sake of man(reedmption) to restore us back to HIs father, Our father our creator…that is why He suffered and so shall we…for the sake of the gospel yes! There is no way we can suffer and undertsand what He went thru??? I dont thiink so

No - we can only share in His suffering in our little finite ways. Even our big sufferings are little compared to His. He took it all, that’s for sure. I think the worst part of it, the part that wrenches my heart, is that His own Children crucified Him. And I guess I played my part in that as well. Pierces me through the heart when I think of it, as it should.

Okay, here’s one for ya - a person once told me that he had an insight during prayer one time that our prayers and our sufferings willingly offered up for the Lord are like soothing salve on the wounds of Our Crucified Lord. Wow…now there’s a deep thought!

Anyway - wow indeed. We sure have drifted in this conversation .

Gotta go!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

I myself had joined a charismatic group lead by a Franciscan priest in the Philippines. This group even has its own religious community of brothers and sisters. Great enthusiasm for Christ characterized us. Aside from weekly prayer rally, we regularly met for prayer–praise and worship and for deliverance (we exorcise the devil from world). As for me, all is well except that we had studies on Sundays with often Bible fundamentalists as teachers on the Scripture and the effective methods of preaching. There were no repudiation of Catholic doctrines by these teachers; so, the studies were to me generally acceptable. However, in one of the meetings (among us the brothers and sisters) our Franciscan founder confided to us that he doesn’t believe in the transubstantiation and that he celebrates Mass to be able to attract Catholics. This made me re-think my position. I did not separate from them abruptly. For several weeks, I stayed with them and continued my preaching among prayer communities in various localities of metropolitan Manila. Our Franciscan founder in his Masses would repudiate a Catholic doctrine in a split second inserted in his sermon without elaboration while the people are swaying their hands and bodies in the act of praise and worship. Among the doctrines he repudiated were Purgatory and the role of Mama Mary during his regular Charismatic Mass. I did not confront him. What I did was to defend the doctrine when I was preaching in prayer communities using the Scriptures as counter-arguments and exhorted them to believe in the Word of God and that they should not believe contrary teaching even of their revered Franciscan founder. I guess, the scriptural argument alone (I did not even assert the constant teachings of the Church) worked well for no one questioned me even my companion brother. I also reported the Protestantism of the father to the bishop in-charge of the charismatic renewal before I left them. I handed to him some tape-records of his preachings. But, I guess, there was no action since the Franciscan father is still at large doing his “mission”.

I entertained the possibility of the Holy Spirit working beyond mere formulas and rules of discipline but I cannot accept that He would be in people who repudiate the teachings of the Church. I could also hardly accept that the Holy Spirit would be in any group that does not end in becoming united to one Church founded by Christ on Peter.