Charismatic Roman Catholicism

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You must humbly accept that you are teaching against the Pope in this matter. Please turn back.

Otherwise, why follow the pope?
 
Flame_of_Christ said:
sir, the Popes have been clear, as I posted in #418.

Let me ask you, if you were talking to Pope John Paul II and he said to you:

Walking home, I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church…

and then you said:

"nu uh it’s not."

LOL who should I stand with on this/B]?​

Seems that would depend. If I’d had the opportunity of speaking with the Pope and showed him how you identify the CCR with the Church Herself – meaning if one rejects the CCR – then one is rejecting the Church — the late Pope may have taken a different view of the movement.
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Walking_Home said:
Seems that would depend. If I’d had the opportunity of speaking with the Pope and showed him how you identify the CCR with the Church Herself – meaning if one rejects the CCR – then one is rejecting the Church — the late Pope may have taken a different view of the movement.
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If this don’t beat all. So now we have someone assuming (and we all know what that does) that if he could talk to the pope he could straighten him out on matters. To me this is the height of arrogance. Please consider what you have said and how this reflects your “intellectual pride”.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Flame_of_Christ said:
You must humbly accept that you are teaching against the Pope in this matter. Please turn back.

Otherwise, why follow the pope?
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Again—you are super-imposing the CCR over the Church. The CCR is Not a teaching that we are to accept. It is a movement within the Church – that by your own words—can be shown to be in the process of disorientation.
 
Walking_Home said:
Seems that would depend. If I’d had the opportunity of speaking with the Pope and showed him how you identify the CCR with the Church Herself – meaning if one rejects the CCR – then one is rejecting the Church — the late Pope may have taken a different view of the movement.
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You would only be rejecting the Church because the Church is unanimously supporting the Catholic Charismatic Renewal all over the globe.

Not only have the last 3 popes supported it (in other words since it began, all the popes have supported it) but also, the bishops of each country have approved it as well.

Please re-think your position on this!

And also,

Please read this document supported by our nation’s bishops and see if you would really say no to them too.

nsc-chariscenter.org/graceeng.htm

So in other words you would be saying no to not only the pope but to the bishops as well! Who else is there to say no to?
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
If this don’t beat all. So now we have someone assuming (and we all know what that does) that if he could talk to the pope he could straighten him out on matters. To me this is the height of arrogance. Please consider what you have said and how this reflects your “intellectual pride”.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Arrogance No — concern yes. Just take a look at Flame of Christ’s prior post to me. He/she has turned my rejection of the CCR into rejection of the Church Herself. So don’t throw “pride” in my direction–for if something is coming across as “pride” – it is the accusation that I have rejected the Church because I don’t take to the CCR. Now are you up to following in Flame’s shoes.
 
Walking_Home said:
Again—you are super-imposing the CCR over the Church. The CCR is Not a teaching that we are to accept. It is a movement within the Church – that by your own words—can be shown to be in the process of disorientation.
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A movement that the Pope has asked us to “fully embrace.”

So if you were a bishop and you said “Holy Father, I will not allow the renewal in my diocese.” wow, guess what? You are not in good standing with the pope.
 
Walking_Home said:
Arrogance No — concern yes. Just take a look at Flame of Christ’s prior post to me. He/she has turned my rejection of the CCR into rejection of the Church Herself. So don’t throw “pride” in my direction–for if something is coming across as “pride” – it is the accusation that I have rejected the Church because I don’t take to the CCR. Now are you up to following in Flame’s shoes.
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The reason why I would say that you are wrong is because you would speak in direct contradiction to the approval of the Holy Father.

Do you understand that you are saying that you know better than 3 popes?

I am following those who the Lord has put to watch over me. Is that pride?
 
Walking_Home said:
If there is belief that the CCR “awakens” the graces of those who are not desiring them—then the disorientation is already embedded.
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Does God go against a person’s will? Of course not. That would be contrary to belief in free will. “There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose;stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given to him”(Sirach15:16-17). It is a daily choice between living in Christ or continuing to live in sin which leads to death. We are constantly being called to conversion, to turn away from our sins. The decision rests on us.
Years ago I devoured books written by Taylor Caldwell. Dear and Glorious Physician is a novel of how God worked in St, Luke’s life even before he knew who God was. I like the line in the book about God working in a person’s life despite his will if he has a special call on that life. It may mean, as it did in my own life, that roadblocks are placed in the way until the person acknowledges his/her need for God and is willing to relinquish control.
 
Flame_of_Christ said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post​

Again—you are super-imposing the CCR over the Church. The CCR is Not a teaching that we are to accept. It is a movement within the Church – that by your own words—can be shown to be in the process of disorientation.

A movement that the Pope has asked us to “fully embrace.”

So if you were a bishop and you said “Holy Father, I will not allow the renewal in my diocese.” wow, guess what? You are not in good standing with the pope.
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The Pope can have his opinion—which by the way is not infallible–unless you are willing to apply infallibility to each and every one of his statements.

As Pope Benedict XVI then Card. said in the following --we can be at odds with a Pope. The same type of principle applies to being at odds with the Pope concerning the CCR.

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?RecNum=6041
  1. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
 
Walking_Home said:
The Pope can have his opinion—which by the way is not infallible–unless you are willing to apply infallibility to each and every one of his statements.

As Pope Benedict XVI then Card. said in the following --we can be at odds with a Pope. The same type of principle applies to being at odds with the Pope concerning the CCR.

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?RecNum=6041
  1. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
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I understand your dilemma, but the fact is, you are not just saying you know better than what one pope has said. You say that you are wiser than the combined teaching of 3 popes, the 3 popes who have led the church ever since this renewal began.

Isn’t that convincing enough for you to say that the CCR just might be right?
 
Flame_of_Christ said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post​

The Pope can have his opinion—which by the way is not infallible–unless you are willing to apply infallibility to each and every one of his statements.

As Pope Benedict XVI then Card. said in the following --we can be at odds with a Pope. The same type of principle applies to being at odds with the Pope concerning the CCR.

catholicculture.org/libra…fm?RecNum=6041
  1. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
I understand your dilemma, but the fact is, you are not just saying you know better than what one pope has said. You say that you are wiser than the combined teaching of 3 popes, the 3 popes who have led the church ever since this renewal began.

Isn’t that convincing enough for you to say that the CCR just might be right?
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I don’t have a “dilemma”—for the CCR is Not a teaching that you are trying to make it out to be. The real fact of this matter is the disorientation being reflected in your own words—when you make the CCR into some “teaching” that we are to embrace. The more you will try to impose the embracing — the more the disorientation will surface.

As has been stated–by our current Pope then Card----we can be at odds with a Pope’s opinion – with no damage to our Faith.
 
Walking_Home said:
I don’t have a “dilemma”—for the CCR is Not a teaching that you are trying to make it out to be. The real fact of this matter is the disorientation being reflected in your own words—when you make the CCR into some “teaching” that we are to embrace. The more you will try to impose the embracing — the more the disorientation will surface.

As has been stated–by our current Pope then Card----we can be at odds with a Pope’s opinion – with no damage to our Faith.
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What do you think of the letter I just posted though?

You aren’t giving it your approval huh?

It seems to me that this is cafeteria catholicism at it’s finest.
 
Flame_of_Christ said:
What do you think of the letter I just posted though?

You aren’t giving it your approval huh?

It seems to me that this is cafeteria catholicism at it’s finest.
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You are apparently skipping the statements by Pope Benedict XVI then Card. — that we can indeed Not agree with everything a Pope says. As to your accusation of me as a cafeteria catholic — this again is super–imposing the CCR over the Church —and reflects the disorientation that apparently is already in force within the CCR.
 
Walking_Home said:
You are apparently skipping the statements by Pope Benedict XVI then Card. — that we can indeed Not agree with everything a Pope says. As to your accusation of me as a cafeteria catholic — this again is super–imposing the CCR over the Church —and reflects the disorientation that apparently is already in force within the CCR.
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So even though the last 3 popes and the bishops in union with them have all said that this is good, you are still going to oppose it?

Might you be opposing the work of God in doing so?
 
Flame_of_Christ said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
You are apparently skipping the statements by Pope Benedict XVI then Card. — that we can indeed Not agree with everything a Pope says. As to your accusation of me as a cafeteria catholic — this again is super–imposing the CCR over the Church —and reflects the disorientation that apparently is already in force within the CCR.

So even though the last 3 popes and the bishops in union with them have all said that this is good, you are still going to oppose it?

Might you be opposing the work of God in doing so?
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Keep talking Flame of Christ----yes keep talking. By your words --you are bringing up to the surface what the CCR is becoming. Opposing the CCR is now supposedly opposing God. Only the Church Herself is identified with God —not some movement that by your words looks to be in the process of putting itself over and above the Church.
 
Walking_Home said:
Keep talking Flame of Christ----yes keep talking. By your words --you are bringing up to the surface what the CCR is becoming. Opposing the CCR is now supposedly opposing God. Only the Church Herself is identified with God —not some movement that by your words looks to be in the process of putting itself over and above the Church.
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I’ll be candid:

If this is from God, then opposing it is opposing God.
 
Here is a message from the Word:

***"if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself.

But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God." ***

This is from Acts 5:38-39 and it is prophetic. The bible has great teaching in it.
 
Walking Home,

I can understand being hesitant to go to a CCR event, but I can’t at all understand opposing something that is so much supported by the whole church.

In my mind, that seems to be walking on thin ice. You could be very wrong to oppose this. Especially since the Popes are by no means neutral, they are voicing their full support for us.
 
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