D
- Status
M
Margarite
Guest
Irish Saints, Where did you learn all this? Did you go to any particular school that I could go to to learn what you obviously know? WOW! You just lay it all out so plainly and simply and well, it couldn’t be said better than the way you said it.
Thanks!
Have a WONDER FULL day everyone.
PS: I came onto this thread and I thought I saw that it was closed I almost started crying :crying: because this is my favorite thread simply because I really like the people on this thread.
Thanks!Have a WONDER FULL day everyone.
PS: I came onto this thread and I thought I saw that it was closed I almost started crying :crying: because this is my favorite thread simply because I really like the people on this thread.
I
Irish_Saints
Guest
St. James said that it was a good idea to be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to wrath. Marvellous advice. Listen to the lessons that the Lord gives us in life. Always have a willingness to learn, and remain teachable. Learn on which things to remain pliant, and on which to dig in your heels (i.e., choose your battles.) In all things, do it with gentleness and without railing.Irish Saints, Where did you learn all this? Did you go to any particular school that I could go to to learn what you obviously know? WOW! You just lay it all out so plainly and simply and well, it couldn’t be said better than the way you said it.
I’m still learning to take this advice myself, and will likely never quite get it pegged down this side of Heaven. Thank God for His mercy!
D
DebChris
Guest
Absolutely
D
deborahssong
Guest
Oh my goodness!!! First matters first…am I being received here again? it seems that I am getting your responses however somehhting is weird with mine. Anyway please someone acknowledge? Now back to this …OH MY GOODNESS! To all of you I am so suprised that you are still trying to explain the GIFTS GIFTS GIFTS of the Holy Spirit…a gift…websters definition: something that is BESTOWED voluntarily and without compensation. The word of God, states that the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit are for all…who will receive…If and I say that strongly, if we are having such a difficlut time beleiving what everyone is so elegantly trying to desribe…then that gift is NOT a gift to you, because YOU do not desire it, so you will not receive it.
It is absolutely possible to NEVER open the doors to these gifts…and yes still go to heaven, yes still be a christian, a catholic… but may I share this so loosely with you? Moses EXPECTED GODS Manfufested presence…Exodus 33. You know why? Because he experienced GOD, he was intimate with God he drew near to God…James 4:8. My good ness people , this blog is so aweosme and yet I can set back and see that there are blind eyes here to the gifts of God…not in head knowledge but in spiritual sight!
and…of course your knowledge on the churchs take on things is so important but when you make it expressed as that is the ultimate take? Please hear me…God is calling us to be the GLORIOUS church for which YES>>>>Jesus will return for…oh by the way…did you know that scripture says that Jesus was the manifested presence of God IN THE EARTH! His glory fills heaven and… earth…come on. EVERYWHERE JESUS went poeple were healed, blind eyes were opened, deaf people heard and satan was driven from their lives! Mental illness was healed…Now I ask you…Hebrews 13;8 He is Gods glory and He lives in us each of us…HMMMMM what should be happening…By the way I recently was told by a catholic educator…Deborah your gifts from God pertaiining to scripture is a blessing and to be shared with many in the catholic church…yes I receive that…and I am getting better in presenting my heart…anyway sorry for the run. Jesus did not do one thing without the FATHERS say, and yet here we go trying to describe what He means about His gifts and His miracles, and His power, according to mans ideas…
I just read a book by a catholic priest who by the way has been a priest for years…and He said…we are still missing in many parishes…the FULLNESS of Gods love…uh… HIs GLORY is NOT always manifested…anyway please know that I am not being smerk, I am a returning catholic who so knows that God has so much MORE for each of us, right here in the catholic church. From what I have read about the real early church fathers THEY KNEW ABOUT HIS preesence and Glory…so do you think God has changed and taken back what He desires for all of us…HIs glory manifested in the earth? WE …you and me are to be HIS glory in the earth! How ? By living daily the way in which He provided for that to be done…through the power of the Holy Spirit given to us by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB…Jesus! May God Bless you all…Margarite? welcome back…and please know I am not demeaning philosophy but be carefull here…Paul was the greatest theologian and teacher and philospher…and yet he was blinded by GOD so that He could retrain his heart to HIS agenda…amen…To God be the GLORY>>>>>great things He is doing and will, in mass, out of mass, in church , out of church…and where are we? we each are to GO! here I go again…rambling…sorry…just so moved in my spirit by the Holy Spirit…we cannot always explain everything especially a move of God…may I say this…Jesus spoke to a fig tree and cursed it, then used that to teach those apostles about FAITH! Read it Mark 11:22- Faith in what? our abilites? no way…in GOD, our SUPERNATURAL FATHER< which means ABOVE the natural…that is why we cannot PHIOSOPHICALLY explain everything! and are NOT suppose to! Being catholic doesnt change the word of God…ever…It should be the GLORY of God…
Debbie
It is absolutely possible to NEVER open the doors to these gifts…and yes still go to heaven, yes still be a christian, a catholic… but may I share this so loosely with you? Moses EXPECTED GODS Manfufested presence…Exodus 33. You know why? Because he experienced GOD, he was intimate with God he drew near to God…James 4:8. My good ness people , this blog is so aweosme and yet I can set back and see that there are blind eyes here to the gifts of God…not in head knowledge but in spiritual sight!
and…of course your knowledge on the churchs take on things is so important but when you make it expressed as that is the ultimate take? Please hear me…God is calling us to be the GLORIOUS church for which YES>>>>Jesus will return for…oh by the way…did you know that scripture says that Jesus was the manifested presence of God IN THE EARTH! His glory fills heaven and… earth…come on. EVERYWHERE JESUS went poeple were healed, blind eyes were opened, deaf people heard and satan was driven from their lives! Mental illness was healed…Now I ask you…Hebrews 13;8 He is Gods glory and He lives in us each of us…HMMMMM what should be happening…By the way I recently was told by a catholic educator…Deborah your gifts from God pertaiining to scripture is a blessing and to be shared with many in the catholic church…yes I receive that…and I am getting better in presenting my heart…anyway sorry for the run. Jesus did not do one thing without the FATHERS say, and yet here we go trying to describe what He means about His gifts and His miracles, and His power, according to mans ideas…
I just read a book by a catholic priest who by the way has been a priest for years…and He said…we are still missing in many parishes…the FULLNESS of Gods love…uh… HIs GLORY is NOT always manifested…anyway please know that I am not being smerk, I am a returning catholic who so knows that God has so much MORE for each of us, right here in the catholic church. From what I have read about the real early church fathers THEY KNEW ABOUT HIS preesence and Glory…so do you think God has changed and taken back what He desires for all of us…HIs glory manifested in the earth? WE …you and me are to be HIS glory in the earth! How ? By living daily the way in which He provided for that to be done…through the power of the Holy Spirit given to us by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB…Jesus! May God Bless you all…Margarite? welcome back…and please know I am not demeaning philosophy but be carefull here…Paul was the greatest theologian and teacher and philospher…and yet he was blinded by GOD so that He could retrain his heart to HIS agenda…amen…To God be the GLORY>>>>>great things He is doing and will, in mass, out of mass, in church , out of church…and where are we? we each are to GO! here I go again…rambling…sorry…just so moved in my spirit by the Holy Spirit…we cannot always explain everything especially a move of God…may I say this…Jesus spoke to a fig tree and cursed it, then used that to teach those apostles about FAITH! Read it Mark 11:22- Faith in what? our abilites? no way…in GOD, our SUPERNATURAL FATHER< which means ABOVE the natural…that is why we cannot PHIOSOPHICALLY explain everything! and are NOT suppose to! Being catholic doesnt change the word of God…ever…It should be the GLORY of God…
Debbie
I
Irish_Saints
Guest
Copy that, deborahssong, we read you very loud and clear. Big 10-4 good buddy! Roger, over and out!
By the way, good to hear from you again. Grace and peace to you.
P
palmas85
Guest
What in the world are you talking about?
T
Trad_Dad
Guest
It seems that this discussion could go on endlessly. Deborahssong speaks of the “gifts, gifts, gifts” of the Holy Spirit, which we are not recieving, because we are not looking for them. The Catholic encyclopedia divides the gifts of the Holy Spirit into two classes - The first being the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit - Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety and Fear of the Lord. These gifts we are told by the encyclopedia are given to us for our sanctification. The second class are referred to as “charismata”, and are referred to as “extraordinary favors, given to us for the help of another”. The Cath. Enc. goes on to explain that these gifts “do not sanctify by themselves, and may even be separated from sanctifying grace”. The encyclopedia goes into deeper explainations of both classes of grace which are too lengthy to get into here - anyone interested can read further at : newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm
When reading the definitions of charismata in the Catholic Encyclopedia, one calls to mind the numerous manifestations of these gifts which we read of in the lives of the saints. St. Bernard while preaching the second crusade throughout Germany, is said to have performed so many miracles that the monks travelling with him could not write quickly enough to record them all. In more recent times we read of St. Pio of Pietralcina having marvelous gifts. Now when Deborahssong tells us that we are not recieving gifts from the Holy Spirit because we are not seeking them, I believe it’s safe to assume that she’s speaking of gifts of charismata, rather than the seven spiritual gifts. With that in mind, I encourage you to read the lives of the saints, and I am confident that you find a few common threads when you read of those saints who displayed gifts of charismata. Firstly they were extraordinarily humble people. Humility is absolutley necessary to keep such extraordinary gifts from going to one’s head. Secondly, I have never read of a saint who was gifted with charismata, who sought such gifts. Sure, when we read of a saint healing someone, the story usually says they prayed over them or for them. But you won’t read of a saint who prayed for the gift of healing. On the contrary, they prayed for the seven spriritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, which enabled them to achieve a hight level of spirtuality. Because of this they then in turn recieved more extraordinary gifts.
God Bless!
When reading the definitions of charismata in the Catholic Encyclopedia, one calls to mind the numerous manifestations of these gifts which we read of in the lives of the saints. St. Bernard while preaching the second crusade throughout Germany, is said to have performed so many miracles that the monks travelling with him could not write quickly enough to record them all. In more recent times we read of St. Pio of Pietralcina having marvelous gifts. Now when Deborahssong tells us that we are not recieving gifts from the Holy Spirit because we are not seeking them, I believe it’s safe to assume that she’s speaking of gifts of charismata, rather than the seven spiritual gifts. With that in mind, I encourage you to read the lives of the saints, and I am confident that you find a few common threads when you read of those saints who displayed gifts of charismata. Firstly they were extraordinarily humble people. Humility is absolutley necessary to keep such extraordinary gifts from going to one’s head. Secondly, I have never read of a saint who was gifted with charismata, who sought such gifts. Sure, when we read of a saint healing someone, the story usually says they prayed over them or for them. But you won’t read of a saint who prayed for the gift of healing. On the contrary, they prayed for the seven spriritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, which enabled them to achieve a hight level of spirtuality. Because of this they then in turn recieved more extraordinary gifts.
God Bless!
M
Margarite
Guest
Speaking In Tongues: The Bible Proof
**What is “speaking in tongues?” The Scriptures teach that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit which allows someone to speak in a foreign language that one does not actually know (in Greek, xenolalia). The Scriptures also indicate that the gift of tongues could mean making ecstatic utterances that are intelligible to God and others who have the gift of interpreting tongues (in Greek, glossalalia). This page provides some biblical information about “tongues-speaking.”
**
-Mark 16:17 – right before Jesus ascended into heaven, He prophesied “they will speak in new tongues.”
-There are only four instances in the New Testament where people speak in tongues:
-1 - Acts 2:3 – when the Holy Spirit descended upon the twelve apostles on Pentecost Sunday, they began to speak in tongues. Acts 2:6 says that men from fifteen different nations each heard the apostles speaking in their own language.
-2 – Acts 10:44-46 – after Peter preached the gospel, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word, and they (including the Gentiles) began to speak in tongues.
-3 – Acts 19:5-6 – after Paul baptized and confirmed about twelve Ephesians, they spoke with tongues.
-4 – 1 Cor. 12-14 – Paul teaches that members of the Corinthian church had the gift of speaking in tongues.
-In each instance in the book of Acts, tongue speaking is heard as if it is a foreign language. This gift of the Holy Spirit was for the purpose of spreading the gospel to all peoples of the world. Peter supports this view when he equates the Gentile tongue-speaking with the tongue-speaking at Pentecost (which was heard as foreign languages) when he says “the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning” (Acts 11:15).
The Gift of Tongues in the Corinthian Church
-The type of tongues spoken in the Corinthian church is not as clear. The following Scriptures suggest that the tongue-speaking at Corinth was also heard as foreign languages, just like the tongue-speaking in the book of Acts:
Foreign languages
-1 Cor. 14:21 – when Paul instructs the Corinthians about speaking in tongues, he quotes from Isaiah 28:11 which is about the “alien tongue” of foreign invaders, which means a foreign language. For Paul to quote Isaiah without any other explanation suggests that the tongue-speaking at Corinth was in the form of foreign languages.
-In fact, no where in 1 Cor. 12-14 does Paul make any distinction between the tongue-speaking in Acts and the tongue-speaking at Corinth (and this is important because the Ephesians’ tongue-speaking in Acts 19:5-6 chronologically occurred around the same time as the Corinthian tongue-speaking). If there would have been a significant difference between the two (foreign languages versus ecstatic utterances), Paul would have likely acknowledged this distinction as he gave the Corinthians instructions about speaking in tongues.
-1 Cor. 14:5 – when Paul says “unless someone interprets,” the word for interprets (in Greek, diermhneuvh) always refers to the interpretation of a foreign language (see John 1:42; 9:7; Heb. 7:2).
Ecstatic utterances
-The following Scriptures, however, suggest that the tongue-speaking at Corinth was in the form of unintelligible ecstatic utterances, and not foreign languages. For example:
-1 Cor. 14:2 – Paul says “For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.” Describing these utterances as “mysteries” may indicate that such speech was unintelligible. This type of tongue was also spoken to God, and not to men, which means that the tongue did not have to be in any particular language (God would understand the utterances in the Spirit). This may be similar to the divine “tongues of angels” (1 Cor. 13:1).
-1 Cor. 14:4 – Paul says “He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself.” If the person is speaking a foreign language he cannot understand, then he would not be edifying himself, unless the language would be interpreted for him. But this may be why Paul required someone to interpret the tongues at Corinth (see 1 Cor. 14:13,27-28). This, however, does not absolutely mean the tongues were foreign languages. The gift of interpretation could have been for interpreting unintelligible divine utterances as well.
-1 Cor. 14:10-11 – Paul describes the tongues at Corinth as “sound” (in Greek, phonon). While foreign languages are heard as sounds, this seems different from the tongues which were described in the book of Acts as “language” (in Greek, dialektos). However, Luke also describes the tongue-speaking of Acts 2:6 as “sound,” even though it was heard as “language.”
-1 Cor. 14:16-17 – Paul says that the tongues at Corinth were spoken to give thanks to God. While speaking the gospel in a foreign language does indeed give thanks to God, this type of speech may be private communication between God and the speaker, which would not require the use of a foreign language.
-1 Cor. 14:23 – Paul says that unbelievers who hear the Corinthians speaking in tongues will conclude that they “are mad.” This suggests that the Corinthians were speaking in unintelligible utterances, although outsiders would also be tempted to call those “mad” who were speaking foreign languages they did not know (perhaps implying that they were possessed by demons).
**What is “speaking in tongues?” The Scriptures teach that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit which allows someone to speak in a foreign language that one does not actually know (in Greek, xenolalia). The Scriptures also indicate that the gift of tongues could mean making ecstatic utterances that are intelligible to God and others who have the gift of interpreting tongues (in Greek, glossalalia). This page provides some biblical information about “tongues-speaking.”
**
Code:
**Background**-There are only four instances in the New Testament where people speak in tongues:
-1 - Acts 2:3 – when the Holy Spirit descended upon the twelve apostles on Pentecost Sunday, they began to speak in tongues. Acts 2:6 says that men from fifteen different nations each heard the apostles speaking in their own language.
-2 – Acts 10:44-46 – after Peter preached the gospel, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word, and they (including the Gentiles) began to speak in tongues.
-3 – Acts 19:5-6 – after Paul baptized and confirmed about twelve Ephesians, they spoke with tongues.
-4 – 1 Cor. 12-14 – Paul teaches that members of the Corinthian church had the gift of speaking in tongues.
-In each instance in the book of Acts, tongue speaking is heard as if it is a foreign language. This gift of the Holy Spirit was for the purpose of spreading the gospel to all peoples of the world. Peter supports this view when he equates the Gentile tongue-speaking with the tongue-speaking at Pentecost (which was heard as foreign languages) when he says “the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning” (Acts 11:15).
The Gift of Tongues in the Corinthian Church
-The type of tongues spoken in the Corinthian church is not as clear. The following Scriptures suggest that the tongue-speaking at Corinth was also heard as foreign languages, just like the tongue-speaking in the book of Acts:
Foreign languages
-1 Cor. 14:21 – when Paul instructs the Corinthians about speaking in tongues, he quotes from Isaiah 28:11 which is about the “alien tongue” of foreign invaders, which means a foreign language. For Paul to quote Isaiah without any other explanation suggests that the tongue-speaking at Corinth was in the form of foreign languages.
-In fact, no where in 1 Cor. 12-14 does Paul make any distinction between the tongue-speaking in Acts and the tongue-speaking at Corinth (and this is important because the Ephesians’ tongue-speaking in Acts 19:5-6 chronologically occurred around the same time as the Corinthian tongue-speaking). If there would have been a significant difference between the two (foreign languages versus ecstatic utterances), Paul would have likely acknowledged this distinction as he gave the Corinthians instructions about speaking in tongues.
-1 Cor. 14:5 – when Paul says “unless someone interprets,” the word for interprets (in Greek, diermhneuvh) always refers to the interpretation of a foreign language (see John 1:42; 9:7; Heb. 7:2).
Ecstatic utterances
-The following Scriptures, however, suggest that the tongue-speaking at Corinth was in the form of unintelligible ecstatic utterances, and not foreign languages. For example:
-1 Cor. 14:2 – Paul says “For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.” Describing these utterances as “mysteries” may indicate that such speech was unintelligible. This type of tongue was also spoken to God, and not to men, which means that the tongue did not have to be in any particular language (God would understand the utterances in the Spirit). This may be similar to the divine “tongues of angels” (1 Cor. 13:1).
-1 Cor. 14:4 – Paul says “He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself.” If the person is speaking a foreign language he cannot understand, then he would not be edifying himself, unless the language would be interpreted for him. But this may be why Paul required someone to interpret the tongues at Corinth (see 1 Cor. 14:13,27-28). This, however, does not absolutely mean the tongues were foreign languages. The gift of interpretation could have been for interpreting unintelligible divine utterances as well.
-1 Cor. 14:10-11 – Paul describes the tongues at Corinth as “sound” (in Greek, phonon). While foreign languages are heard as sounds, this seems different from the tongues which were described in the book of Acts as “language” (in Greek, dialektos). However, Luke also describes the tongue-speaking of Acts 2:6 as “sound,” even though it was heard as “language.”
-1 Cor. 14:16-17 – Paul says that the tongues at Corinth were spoken to give thanks to God. While speaking the gospel in a foreign language does indeed give thanks to God, this type of speech may be private communication between God and the speaker, which would not require the use of a foreign language.
-1 Cor. 14:23 – Paul says that unbelievers who hear the Corinthians speaking in tongues will conclude that they “are mad.” This suggests that the Corinthians were speaking in unintelligible utterances, although outsiders would also be tempted to call those “mad” who were speaking foreign languages they did not know (perhaps implying that they were possessed by demons).
M
Margarite
Guest
Speaking In Tongues: The Bible Proof
-Acts 2:6 – the Pentecost tongue-speaking is described as a “sound,” and yet it was heard as the specific foreign “language” by men of fifteen different nations. This type of tongue-speaking appears to be a translation of sound into language. Moreover, Acts 2:4 suggests that the apostles began to speak at one time, and yet their many voices are described as one “sound” in Acts 2:6. --This suggests that the tongue-speaking was in the form of one sound, but was heard as many languages (in fact, you have only twelve apostles speaking, but fifteen different languages being heard).
-1 Cor. 14:5 – the fact that the Corinthians’ utterances were actually being translated into language by the Holy Spirit for certain people may be the reason why Paul required the Corinthians to have gifted interpreters when they spoke in tongues. Again, the word “interprets” refers to the interpretation of foreign languages.
-1 Cor. 14:10-11 – Paul’s use of “sound” to describe the tongues of the Corinthian church is the same word “sound” (from the Greek, phonee) that Luke uses to describe the tongues in Acts 2:6, which were heard as foreign languages.
Paul’s Teachings on Speaking in Tongues
-Paul teaches that tongue-speaking is a gift of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:4,10-11). Paul therefore does not prohibit tongue-speaking (1 Cor. 14:39) and even encourages it (1 Cor. 14:5) when received according to his parameters.
-However, Paul warns us that tongue-speaking is not always a gift of the Spirit, but may originate out of spiritual pride and immaturity. This is why Paul called the Corinthians immature (1 Cor. 3:1-3; 14:20), and said they were seeking the wisdom of men and not God (1 Cor. 2:5,13; 3:18). Many people in the Corinthian church claimed to have the gift of tongues, but were actually mimicking the divine gift in order to gain ascendancy in the church. This caused arrogance, dissensions and jealousies among them (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 3:3; 4:6-7,18; 5:2; 11:17-22).
-Tongue-speaking can also have demonic origins. When people are unfaithful and motivated by pride and not love for God, God can allow demons to enter the church to punish the unfaithful. These demons can appear holy and good, and inspire tongue-speaking and other speech, but they are really deceivers who wish to confuse the faithful and lead them away from the truth (cf. Ezek. 14:6-11; 1 Kings 22:22-23). Paul warns that some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1). This is why John tells us to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1).
-Therefore, tongue-speaking can be a gift of the Holy Spirit, or may be of human or demonic origin. Paul makes several important points regarding the gift of tongues:
-1 – The gift of tongues is a lesser gift from God. While speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit, Paul teaches that it is a lesser gift on the continuum of divine gifts from God (1 Cor. 12:10,28,30). For example, Paul says that tongues is a much lesser gift than the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 14:1-5,19,22). In fact, the gift of tongues is not even mentioned among the gifts of the Spirit in the latter books of the New Testament (Rom.
-2 – The gift of tongues will cease. Paul says “as for tongues, they will cease” (1 Cor. 13:8). The Greek word for “cease” (pauomai) means that the gift of tongues will end abruptly, on its own, and will not be replaced by another gift. The gift of tongues is the only gift of the Holy Spirit that is said to “cease” in this way. When Paul says that prophecies and knowledge will “pass away” (1 Cor. 13:8), the phrase “pass away” (in Greek, katargeo) indicates that these gifts will be replaced by a superior power. This appears to take place when we begin our life in eternity (1 Cor. 13:10-12). Not so with tongues.
Paul does not say when the gift of tongues would cease, and whether the gift would return intermittently after its cessation. However, Augustine wrote that the gift of tongues had ceased 12:4-8; Eph. 4:11-12; Gal. 5:22; 1 Peter 4:7-11; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6).
Code:
**Ecstatic utterances heard as foreign languages -**It is also possible that the Corinthians were making unintelligible ecstatic utterances that were then understood by gifted hearers as intelligible foreign languages (which would be both inspired and interpreted by the power of the Holy Spirit). For example:-1 Cor. 14:5 – the fact that the Corinthians’ utterances were actually being translated into language by the Holy Spirit for certain people may be the reason why Paul required the Corinthians to have gifted interpreters when they spoke in tongues. Again, the word “interprets” refers to the interpretation of foreign languages.
-1 Cor. 14:10-11 – Paul’s use of “sound” to describe the tongues of the Corinthian church is the same word “sound” (from the Greek, phonee) that Luke uses to describe the tongues in Acts 2:6, which were heard as foreign languages.
Paul’s Teachings on Speaking in Tongues
-Paul teaches that tongue-speaking is a gift of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:4,10-11). Paul therefore does not prohibit tongue-speaking (1 Cor. 14:39) and even encourages it (1 Cor. 14:5) when received according to his parameters.
-However, Paul warns us that tongue-speaking is not always a gift of the Spirit, but may originate out of spiritual pride and immaturity. This is why Paul called the Corinthians immature (1 Cor. 3:1-3; 14:20), and said they were seeking the wisdom of men and not God (1 Cor. 2:5,13; 3:18). Many people in the Corinthian church claimed to have the gift of tongues, but were actually mimicking the divine gift in order to gain ascendancy in the church. This caused arrogance, dissensions and jealousies among them (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 3:3; 4:6-7,18; 5:2; 11:17-22).
-Tongue-speaking can also have demonic origins. When people are unfaithful and motivated by pride and not love for God, God can allow demons to enter the church to punish the unfaithful. These demons can appear holy and good, and inspire tongue-speaking and other speech, but they are really deceivers who wish to confuse the faithful and lead them away from the truth (cf. Ezek. 14:6-11; 1 Kings 22:22-23). Paul warns that some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1). This is why John tells us to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1).
-Therefore, tongue-speaking can be a gift of the Holy Spirit, or may be of human or demonic origin. Paul makes several important points regarding the gift of tongues:
-1 – The gift of tongues is a lesser gift from God. While speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit, Paul teaches that it is a lesser gift on the continuum of divine gifts from God (1 Cor. 12:10,28,30). For example, Paul says that tongues is a much lesser gift than the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 14:1-5,19,22). In fact, the gift of tongues is not even mentioned among the gifts of the Spirit in the latter books of the New Testament (Rom.
-2 – The gift of tongues will cease. Paul says “as for tongues, they will cease” (1 Cor. 13:8). The Greek word for “cease” (pauomai) means that the gift of tongues will end abruptly, on its own, and will not be replaced by another gift. The gift of tongues is the only gift of the Holy Spirit that is said to “cease” in this way. When Paul says that prophecies and knowledge will “pass away” (1 Cor. 13:8), the phrase “pass away” (in Greek, katargeo) indicates that these gifts will be replaced by a superior power. This appears to take place when we begin our life in eternity (1 Cor. 13:10-12). Not so with tongues.
Paul does not say when the gift of tongues would cease, and whether the gift would return intermittently after its cessation. However, Augustine wrote that the gift of tongues had ceased 12:4-8; Eph. 4:11-12; Gal. 5:22; 1 Peter 4:7-11; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6).
F
Flame_of_Christ
Guest
lol it hasn’t ceased as you can plainly see!
I’ll give you the Pope’s phone number so that you can ask him if he is okay with us praying in tongues. lol
I’ll give you the Pope’s phone number so that you can ask him if he is okay with us praying in tongues. lol
R
robertaf
Guest
If the Pope came here and posted in person and could verify his identity and was in favor of the CCR , half the folks here would argue with him.
I have watched Charismatic Catholics run out of Catholic Answers over the years. I rarely ever show my face in one of these threads.
I have watched Charismatic Catholics run out of Catholic Answers over the years. I rarely ever show my face in one of these threads.
M
Mary_ann_R
Guest
Roberta - Many times there have been posted the comments and writings from Popes that support the CCR. I think you are correct that they would even argue with the Pope. I rarely post in these threads anymore. I just rest in the fact that the Gifts will be with us until the perfect comes and as far as I know that hasn’t happened yet.
I
Irish_Saints
Guest
I have watched Charismatic Catholics run out of Catholic Answers over the years. I rarely ever show my face in one of these threads.
I find these examples of condescension to be one of the prima facie reasons some have difficulties with the CCM. If it were that self-evident, do you honestly think people would simply be contrary for its own sake? Really? Do you really believe that?
I don’t need the Pope to come here and personally verify the validity of the Charismatic Movement. I would settle for any competent theological authority to do so. Present the evidence for this movement with the same careful, compelling and overwhelming proofs that buttress virtually every other Catholic doctrine. Writings from Monsignor So-and-so who provides anecdotal experiences will simply not do.
It’s not just tongues that folks have a problem with. Listen, as a Pentecostal, I’ve been there and done that. And speaking from MY experience, it’s not the be-all and end-all of all there is. Far from it. If I had a choice between shifting into “blah-blah” mode any time I wanted, or sitting silently in front of the Blessed Sacrament for just one solid minute, there’s no doubt in my mind which one I’d pick.
Those of us who have difficulties with this movement look at any number of things, including:
· the decentralized authority within the movement
· the choice of music that more often than not goes hand-in-hand with charismaticism
· the seeming disregard for anything that doesn’t provide that euphoric endorphin rush and cathartic emotional release
· a simmering disrespect for non-charismatic Catholics while at the same time a peculiar spiritual chumminess with non-Catholic charismatics
These are some of the things that leave a bad taste in our mouths.
Suggesting that we “just try it” is just as silly, frankly. First of all, since the apostolic times, doctrine trumps experience every time. Or at least it’s supposed to. And why on earth would we subject ourselves to something we find so distasteful to begin with? We’re not talking about sampling tofu-burgers or raspberry frozen yogurt here! We’re talking about exposing ourselves to something that in a very real way assaults our senses and sensibilities. The “try it, you may like it” approach is simply untenable.
Perhaps there are those here who are exasperated and think they have laid out all the proof that one needs to enter into this wonderful “New Pentecost”, and if you’re satisfied with what you have, fine. Some of us have serious reservations, and there needs to be respect for that while avenues for ongoing dialog continue to be established.
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DebChris
Guest
Trad Dad–You are right in stating that each of us, by receipt of Confirmation, has received the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Charismata are extraordinary favors given for the help of one another. As mentioned several times throughout this thread, I did not specifically seek these gifts. I thank God that I have received the gifts He has given me "for the upbuiding of the Church (CCC).
I came back to this thread because of Marcus Grodi’s Changed but Still Changing article in Catholic Answers magazine.
“From the moment of the initial change [Baptism and Confirmation], we either move forward toward intimacy with God or backward away form Him, depending on how we respond to Him…The sacraments don’t immediately wipe out old habits, attitudes, passions and lusts. We must act on the graces we’ve been given…many baptized and catechized Christians…fail to act on the graces they have received, out of ignorance, discouragement or sloth.”
I could not help but think these words pretty much summarized the gist of this thread and the purpose of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. We are called individually and collectively to a closer intimacy with Christ.
Charismata are extraordinary favors given for the help of one another. As mentioned several times throughout this thread, I did not specifically seek these gifts. I thank God that I have received the gifts He has given me "for the upbuiding of the Church (CCC).
I came back to this thread because of Marcus Grodi’s Changed but Still Changing article in Catholic Answers magazine.
“From the moment of the initial change [Baptism and Confirmation], we either move forward toward intimacy with God or backward away form Him, depending on how we respond to Him…The sacraments don’t immediately wipe out old habits, attitudes, passions and lusts. We must act on the graces we’ve been given…many baptized and catechized Christians…fail to act on the graces they have received, out of ignorance, discouragement or sloth.”
I could not help but think these words pretty much summarized the gist of this thread and the purpose of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. We are called individually and collectively to a closer intimacy with Christ.
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palmas85
Guest
Pentecostal churches were born from the revivals of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. These revivals generally took place in rural areas where the people were mostly illiterate. When individuals at these revivals began to speak in tongues, the phenomenom was not accepted by the mainstream non-Catholic denominations from which the preachers came. As a result, the preachers and their followers were excommunicated. The Pentecostal Holiness Church and the Assembly of God were born. These churches have neither the richness nor the Tradition of the Catholic Church. Oftentimes they have a “once saved, always saved” mentality and the only sure sign of salvation is the outward manifestation of the charisms, in particular the gift of tongues.
What makes the Catholic Charismatic Renewal different is the immediate submission to the magisterium.****] It does not take away the need for the Sacraments. Rather there is an intense growing hunger for the Sacraments. There is quicker conviction of sin which leads to the confessional and an overwhelming desire for that source and summit of our faith, the Eucharist. Sanctification is a lifelong process. The receipt of actual graces, of charisms, can occur at any point along the way. The Holy See has blessed the Charismatic Renewal for what it is, a movement of the Holy Spirit and not of man. The charisms may be released spontaneously. More often this release occurs after the laying on of hands by other Charismatics Where two or more are gathered. **Words fall short when it comes to describing the experience whether that experience is witnessed or experienced. **As scripture says, it is a peace beyond understanding. Raymond Burke was elevated to diocesan bishop shortly after being prayed for.
If Charismatics gather it is because we do not live in isolation. We need one other’s support. Ours is a communal Church. During the conferences there are teachings on what it means to walk in the Spirit. One I remember included the analogy of a limousine with chauffeurs standing by. Why does the chauffeur wear a cap? To show that he is not the owner of the car. Each of us needs to be ready for God’s purpose, whatever that is, whenever he chooses to use us. As the John the Baptist said, “I must decrease that He might increase.”
FIRE rallies mentioned in an earlier post focus on Faith, Intercessory Prayer, Repentence, and Evangelization. These are talks on what it means to walk in faith and to pray for one another. There is ample opportunity for confession. Evangelization takes place everyday as we live our lives as God calls each of us to live. Anybody can attend these conferences and rallies. Nobody asks for a membership card.
Oh I get it now. The protestant charismatics are not true charismatics but Catholic charismatics, whose movement began by the laying of hands by a protestant minister are.
Well that certainly explains a lot of things and answers a lot of questions that I had.
Actually they were born more as a result of a fundamentalist backlash against the liberal and modernist theology being taught at most protestant seminaries in those days.
And you are indeed right words do indeed fall short of explaining what goes on at these gatherings so maybe a simple graphic will suffice.:bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:
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DebChris
Guest
It is not my place to judge on whom God will bestow His extraordinary gifts.
At 6pm on Sunday, April 20 Pope Benedict presided over an ecumenical prayer service at St. Joseph Parish in Yorkville, NY, with 250 Protestant and Orthodox leaders and 50 Catholics involved in ecumenical efforts.[Source: Our Sunday Visitor].
St. Joseph Parish was founded in 1873 to meet the needs of German immigrants.
palmas85–Have you been to a prayer meeting?
At 6pm on Sunday, April 20 Pope Benedict presided over an ecumenical prayer service at St. Joseph Parish in Yorkville, NY, with 250 Protestant and Orthodox leaders and 50 Catholics involved in ecumenical efforts.[Source: Our Sunday Visitor].
St. Joseph Parish was founded in 1873 to meet the needs of German immigrants.
palmas85–Have you been to a prayer meeting?
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deborahssong
Guest
Greetings to all!
Deborah
Code:
I am baffled ........ To all who have given the excellent theological answers, in depth and educated......there are just some things one cannot explain when pertaining to moves of God......and yes I am speaking of the charismata? as you call them. Please forgive me IF I am still speaking like a protestant. Simple answer....there is so much more to God and Jesus said it best......."Blessed are THOSE that hunger and thirst for righteousness sake, they shall be filled" I get that dont you? All of it... Humility is absolute when we are talking about our relationship with God....period! This Christian life IS all about HIM,,,,,and us serving Him here in the earth......amen.....Margarite, please point me to the article where St Augustine says that the gift of tongues will cease. I want to read that.....May the Lord bless you all...
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palmas85
Guest
I have. On many occasions as a matter of fact? Why do you ask?
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DebChris
Guest
I reread your post. I apologize if I did not understand your post the first time I read it.
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