Charismatic Roman Catholicism

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Good aftrenoon everyone! In spite of all of our hammering about what we believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are, He is such an awesome God. I will tell you this much, everytime I hear that UNLESS those who dont have it , get it and then get back to the catholic church so we can get it? That so disturbs me…makes my spirit very uneasy…Let me ask you all something is it FAIR according to scripture to assume that UNLESS one is catholic they dont really have it…or that God is doing us a favor, by allowing others to come to Jesus outside the church. Please take this with the love it is sent…The catholic church must stop this hammering the way in which it does. I can tell you a revival of the church will not happen. UNTIL there is unity and harmony…with all believers…scripture does not say anything else…
In John 17 Jesus HIMSELF prayed for unity and harmony in His church…we are anything but that…we are too busy hammering over whetehr or not one shoudl speak in tongues or whetehr or not one is slaiin inthe spirit. or whatever the issue is…God IS God…Mark 11 says it best… Have faith IN God,…not in what we say or think something is, not what someone else says but what Gods word says…If we dont beleive that which we are suppose to be belieiving isnt going to happen for us anyway! That is scripture… St James said…"You have not because you ask not, or you ask with the wrong motive…If you ask me? Philosophical teaching is dangerous when applying it to all of scripture. Gods word is just that…His word! Not our interpretation…and besides that, the ORIGINAL word of God is Hebrew…Jesus didnt stop being Jew, He obeyed the customs of that walk. Why wouldnt the bible be simple for the simple or simple for the intellect…He is God for good ness sakes. ABOVE THE NATURAL…may our blind spiritual eyes be opened!!! How much sense does it make that our almighy and all knowing God would stop moving in power and might? All through the word of God he shook things up and it was usually with people! God Bless…

Deborah
 
Remember this…we each will be held accountable for causing any brother to stumble…or sister. When Jesus made reference to caus9ing oen of His little ones to stumble He was not jsu referring to chidlren…He was referring to each of us and I believe to the ones new in faith or new in their relationship with Him. The world isnt causing problems for us Christians, or I should say not half as much as christians causing problems for one another…Deacon ed B amen! Lets not get offended or try to offend anyone…However when Jesus spoke it hurt many who did not beleive what He was saying…Pharisees saw Him as a rebel…He taught everything other than…if someone hits you on the cheek turn to other, love your enemy, its is ok to help your brother on the sabbath, and on and on…I was catholic most of my young life and young adult, after being away 24 years I have returned. However I KNOW that GOD is GOD and He will move anyway He chooses and I know that in my heart. I am so excited about the move of God in my life. Bless His Name!

Deborah
 
deborahsong
To answer your question about how we are to treat our non-Catholic brothers and sisters, look at the Catholic Cathecism of The Church.
818**** “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers…all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christian, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

820****…Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples; “That they all be one…” the desire to recover the unity of Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.
 
robertaf said:
If the Pope came here and posted in person and could verify his identity and was in favor of the CCR , half the folks here would argue with him.

I have watched Charismatic Catholics run out of Catholic Answers over the years. I rarely ever show my face in one of these threads. :mad:
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Don’t be afraid to admit you are Charismatic. I have openly professed it and am only 14 inches shorter because of it.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
robertaf said:
If the Pope came here and posted in person and could verify his identity and was in favor of the CCR , half the folks here would argue with him.

I have watched Charismatic Catholics run out of Catholic Answers over the years. I rarely ever show my face in one of these threads. :mad:
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Deacon_Ed_B said:
Don’t be afraid to admit you are Charismatic. I have openly professed it and am only 14 inches shorter because of it.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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There is a different thread, if you are interested that does not debate the merits of the Charismatic Renewal. It was started as a support thread for those seeking to learn more, to find prayer groups, etc.
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
Don’t be afraid to admit you are Charismatic. I have openly professed it and am only 14 inches shorter because of it.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Deacon Ed B,

:rotfl: I love your sense of humor. I am so glad that you posted this comment. I was telling my husband that I stopped participating in these threads because of all the hostility toward Charismatics. It just disturbs my spirit so much. Thank you for making me laugh.
deborahssong Remember this…we each will be held accountable for causing any brother to stumble…or sister. When Jesus made reference to caus9ing oen of His little ones to stumble He was not jsu referring to chidlren…He was referring to each of us and I believe to the ones new in faith or new in their relationship with Him. The world isnt causing problems for us Christians, or I should say not half as much as christians causing problems for one another…Deacon ed B amen! Lets not get offended or try to offend anyone…However when Jesus spoke it hurt many who did not beleive what He was saying…Pharisees saw Him as a rebel…He taught everything other than…if someone hits you on the cheek turn to other, love your enemy, its is ok to help your brother on the sabbath, and on and on…I was catholic most of my young life and young adult, after being away 24 years I have returned. However I KNOW that GOD is GOD and He will move anyway He chooses and I know that in my heart. I am so excited about the move of God in my life. Bless His Name!
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deborahsong, I have been following this thread for a while and I just wanted to say welcome back! You have such a beautiful heart. God bless you!
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Latinmass…who says? Why would a loving superior God, our Creator, remove His power NOW that the church is established? How does that make sense? and by no longer needing those things, how would that advance His church? Your remarks make it sound as though we have been fooled? Those of us who are filled with the dunamis of God. Actually we each have the living breathing Holy Spirit in us and yet…you say these gifts of the Spirit arent necessary any longer?
I am sure you do not mean to make us sound ignorant of spiritual things but that is sure what it sounds like…and I thank you but I am most happy where I am with the Lord. and if what you are saying were true where in the world would that place millions of christians who operate in these gifts? so we are all deceived and just not walking in truth? If I hadnt experienced the move of God so powerfully in my own life…this blog would be enough to make me question everything! But oh I have …and I know that I know He is and can and will do anything He so desires…even fool the wise!! Well the word of God says in James that IF we doubt in our hearts? God isnt going to do anything for us anyway…my paraphrase…
I am not sure there can be an agreement here at all…however God is so much bigger than our indifferences…thank goodness…God Bless…

Deborah
 
Maybe it the late hour, or maybe I’ve just hit my own exasperation threshold…I considered responding to the latest spate of messages, and this little nagging voice in the back of my mind said, “Why bother?” 🤷

I’m going to bed instead.
 
What fusterates and “exasperates” us non-CM people is that you CM people won’t say that “this, this and this is what the CM stands for.” You won’t explain the CM because you can’t because you aren’t even sure.

Everything in the Catholic Church is logical and explainable, but the CM is not, why is that? Why is it that the CC can be completely logically understood and explained, and yet the CM which claims to be part of the CC, can’t be explained? OK, the Holy Ghost comes down and makes you feel good. Great! Now what? As Irish Saints pointed out,
· the decentralized authority within the movement
· the choice of music that more often than not goes hand-in-hand with charismaticism
· the seeming disregard for anything that doesn’t provide that euphoric endorphin rush and cathartic emotional release
· a simmering disrespect for non-charismatic Catholics while at the same time a peculiar spiritual chumminess with non-Catholic charismatics
This and so much more confuses us and makes us quite wary of the CM.

We don’t in any way hate you, we are just wary of the movement to which you belong or have fallen prey to. To me, I just haven’t seen very much good come out of this movement which y’all claim comes from the Holy Ghost. Well, if it does, then there should be proof. Jesus did not just come into the world and say “I am he believe!” No, he gave many signs and miracles so that we might know that it was He. Even after Pentecost when the Apostles received the gift of tongues (speaking in their native tongue, but every person heard them in their own native tongue) they performed many miracles so that we would know that what they did came from God. Well, that is just not so in the CM. There has never been a saint who was part of the CM, there has never been an approved miracle, the Church has not made a decision (and I don’t mean the pope’s opinion, or an objective statement by the pope).

We need something that will tell us “This is good and not evil, it is not leading souls away from the Lord.” We are careful of our souls because they are precious to us, and we don’t want to risk them on just the word of some people, even if they are our friends. If my own brothers and sisters and parents were in this movement, I would question them. So don’t take it personally because we don’t mean it personally, we just wish you would give us a little meat on the bone.

If I were to take you on your word and just ignore my conscience which is warning me against this movement, that would be wrong. I question because I am careful in regards to my soul. I don’t want to risk losing it because I took the word of someone I met online.

Once, a priest told us a story, he said that there was a parishioner who was a daily communicant, he was an EM, he volunteered at Church, he would stay about 10 minutes after mass each day praying and then would leave. Well, when the man died, they went to his house, and found that he had been a Satanist. I don’t know if this was true, but the point still remains.
I am not saying that the CM is evil in that way, but I am saying that evil can take on the guise of good, so you should commend us on being careful rather than rebuke us for asking questions.
 
In the Traditional Epistle today, part of the reading was this

"FOR THE JEWS ASK FOR SIGNS AND THE GREEKS LOOK FOR WISDOM"

As I see it the Charismatic movement asks for signs and are severely disappointed if they don’t get them. They expect them. Maybe I’m wrong, but that is the way it appears. Physical manifestations do not always mean that something is true and correct. Healings, ecstatic utterances and prophecy may indeed be divinely inspired. But then again they may not be, and I have seen very little evidence that the Charismatic Movement takes any real steps to discern if the gifts are in fact divinely given, faked or inspired from other less benevolent sources…

From the meetings that I have attended there seems to be a lot of pressure on those attending to conform and to receive the gifts… For those who for whatever reason don’t receive the gifts, which does happen, what disappointment on their faces, being told that they are resisting or need to try harder if they want to receive the gifts to me seems completely out of sync with what is supposed to be going on. It seems at times almost as if there is a competition going on amongst he congregation as to who receives what and to what degree.

As I understand it the Holy Spirit descends when and upon whom He chooses, when He chooses, and how He chooses and ** not **when you want Him to or how you want Him to. No matter how hard you pray to receive the gifts it is up to Him when where and how that happens…

Often prayers are not answered, in fact I believe it was St Teresa that said she was glad that God did not answer her prayers for many years, because that time gave her the opportunity to grow and to understand what prayer really was.

I wonder how well attended these meetings would be if for a while the Holy Spirit stopped showing up on demand.:hmmm: . I can imagine they would thin out pretty quickly.

Just a thought.
 
Wow again!
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  Margarite........I am so floored by your remarks........if I may so boldly say this my dear..........You are well educated for sure, in the dogma or doctrine of the catholic church.....but you have overstepped a boundary by saying that......EVERYTHING in the catholic church is logical and explainable??????For just a moment it seemed I was reading an excerpt from the Apostle pauls life....before he was changed.  You have a word of correction for every single statement that any of us CM"s have said.  I am quoting to you OVER and OVER scripture....and yet....you refuse to see the writing on the wall, right in your face my dear!
  How does the catholic church explain the burning bush?  How does the catholic church explain blind eyes being healed by Jesus, or Peters shadow passed by someone and that person was healed? How do you explain Mark 16....Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations?  that is not just priests my dear, and they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover.....what does the church say that means?  If the church says anything other than what Gods most Holy word says they are incorrect. 
 There are just some things about God we must receive by faith. The apostle Paul said in Corinthians.....that he spoke in tongues more than all of them. he also said yes the greater of the gifts is prophecy....but he also said to allow the gifts, in an orderly fashion........as i have said many times before....there is abuse in all things pertaining to God and His work, His word.  But you CANNOT throw out truth because some abuse it. Why would Paul say to allow this IF it wasnt being done?  I ask you also again where are the refernces you have made to the fact that these gifts of signs and wonders, stopped or ceased.  Where? give me your refernces my dear?  
 I am not trying to be sarcastic in any way....however I just cannot keep quiet.....my heart is grieved for those of you who think this is a farce or whatver it is you may think.  Again Jesus says it best....IF ONLY YOU BELIEVE.........it is a personal decision of weighing the truth after you have received it......that simple. We have made reference to what we are talking about over and over and you still refuse to see, blind eyes.......spiritually..... BECAUSE the catholic church says it isnt logical or explainable?????
 Thank you Mary R.....I pray that when  God sees my heart...I desire it to be open to Him and changed by Him to live like Him daily......His light shines on a new area every time I beleive I have conquered one area of sin, so I pray that I am conforming to His likeness every day!  His Holy Spirit will lead me to all truth......Jesus said so.   To God be the glory....great things he has done and will do.....I may not have the education that some have here in the doctrien of the church........however if I did and it kept me from being intimately involved with my Jesus then i would give it all up.......I love my time with Him and I love that His word is trustable and accurate.....His word...Jesus....the Living word of God who dwelt among us......It still sounds as if you are making the catholic chuch ABOVE the word of God .........and i have a serious problem with that!!!!!..May God Bless each here...
Deborah
 
I content that what attracts people to the Charismatic movement is the experience of religious ecstasy.

Their experiences are so strong that they feel this ecstasy as something necessarily outside of themselves.

Thus they equate their worship with a closeness with God

This euphoria is most certainly genuine and heartfelt for most, but there are dangers to ecstatic worship.

Ecstatic worship inherently lacks discernment and objectivity.

Because the religious experience is so strong, many faithful fail to ask whether their worship contradicts the Church.

Does their worship contradict the hierarchical structure of the Church?

Does their worship allow illicit participation of the laity?

Does their worship transmit error?

Regardless of the needs it fulfills, if it contradicts the Faith, then it must be false.

St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Jesus both warned that any extraordinary experiences must be assumed to come from the forces of evil, unless the opposite is proved.

I end this with a quote by St. Therese of Lisieux, “To ecstasy, I prefer the monotony of sacrifice.”
 
Deborah,

Deborah, Deborah, Deborah…dear Deborah…can we talk? 😃

Okay, let’s take it from the top. First, I’m not sure if you’re an overly excitable person face-to-face, but your writing style gives the impression that–how to put this delicately? Like you’re all over the map. We don’t have the benefit of hearing you speak, so we have to take all of our cues from your text. Paragraphs and punctuation are your friends, dear Deborah. And there’s a tendency toward an over-use of the ellipses (the “…”, which technically is supposed to be limited to three periods.) With little capitalization, few or no paragraphs or other forms of punctuation, and interspersed with copious “mega-ellipses”, it makes your messages appear disjointed, hard to follow, and somewhat confusing as to precisely which point you’re trying to make.

Secondly, you appear to be making a number of false dichotomies in your last message. First, you place a chasm between faith and reason when there should be none. Certainly we agree there are elements of our beliefs that cannot be easily explained. You even mentioned a number of them. I can’t explain miraculous healings, raising the dead to life, or incredible escapes from certain peril. I also can’t explain why that check from seemingly out of nowhere arrived just in time to pay a looming bill. But there it is, and it happens, and we thank God for it all. At the same time, the Catholic Church is built upon that sacred Deposit of Faith that was entrusted to the apostles from Christ himself. Far from being “bad words”, doctrine and dogma are both derived from Greek words which simply mean “teaching.” And the Bible has plenty to say about preserving, maintaining and recognizing sound doctrine. Don’t let the terms scare you.

Thirdly, you place the notion of faith squarely on par with the miraculous and supernatural charismata, and if one follows your syllogism to its logical conclusion, that what you are saying is precisely what Pentecostal Protestants have been saying for the better part of a century now. To wit, that to have faith means that you will personally experience all the manifest supernatural gifts, and if you do not, then it is one’s faith that is lacking and deficient. And while the Catholic Church embraces the legacy of the move of God in our midst, one must temper such a position with Christ’s own words to St. Thomas: “Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe!”

What Margarite simply asked in her last message was that the same care and attention to detail that is the hallmark of virtually every other Christian doctrine be applied when approaching the Charismatic Movement within the Catholic Church. God will not fault us for being diligent and cautious. Rather to be on our guard, than to blithely accept the next spiritual fad to come down the pike, to our collective ruin.

Finally, although it’s been said before, allow me to reiterate. The Catholic Church stands second to no one when it comes to its love and defense of the holy Scriptures. The Bible is a Catholic book…it was written by Catholics, for Catholics, about Catholics (as guided by the Holy Spirit, of course!) The Church is the Bible’s “native habitat.” Setting up a scenario where there is tension between the Church and the Church’s book is unwise.

Grace and peace to you, dear Deborah. Pray for me, please, that the eyes of my understanding will be enlightened. And I will do the same for you. Above all, let us love one another, as Christ has willed for his Body, the Church.

Your brother in Christ,
Timotheos (“Honoring God”…may I live up to my name some day.)
 
Great post palmas85! As you said, the Holy Spirit descends when He chooses upon whom he chooses. I mentioned in my post on 4/25 that when one reads the lives of the saints there are numerous instances of saints having all sorts of extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit, but you’ll never read of a saint praying for or seeking extraordinary gifts. They recieved extraordinary gifts by virtue of the fervor and efficacy with which they prayed for and accepted the ordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit. The practice of the Catholic faith, to put it as simply as possible, is the business of saving one’s soul. Consider that the Church teaches that the gifts of the Holy Spirit fall into two classes: the Seven Spiritual Gifts, and the Charismata, and that the seven gifts of the first class are necessary for salvation and that the gifts of the second class, the charismata, are not necessary. With that in mind, what’s the point in a movement who’s primary focus is recieving gifts that aren’t necessary for salvation? I’m sure that people involved in the charismatic movement have all sorts of wonderful things to say about the wonderful effect their involvement therein has on their spiritual lives. But bear in mind that the Catholic encyclopedia defines the charismata as extraordiary gifts given to individuals by the Holy Spirit for the help of others. It seems to me that the “charisms” displayed by the charismatic movement only seem to manifiest themselves within the confines of charismatic healing masses. How does that help others? I’m sure there are plenty of stories of people having been healed, and that of course would be helpful. But have there been any cures that could be declared unexplainable by a qualified medical review board? How does shaking uncontrollably while babbling uninteligibly help others? I would think that if the early Christians did such a thing that the Roman authorities wouldn’t have kept them alive long enough to feed to lions. I’m just not seeing any connection here between what this movement defines as charismata, and the accounts of charismata that are recorded in scripture and the lives of the saints.

Now Deborahssong, I will agree with you not everything in the Catholic Church is logical and explainable. Margarite, be careful, I’m not sure if you intended that statement to sound quite so absolute, but in a strict sense that would be defined as rationalism. Rationalism is of course heretical, since the mysteries of the Faith cannot be explained. But Deborah, I know that the scriptures say a lot of things about the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit, but one must be careful how they interperet the scriptures. St. Peter warns against misinterpreting the scriptures in 2PeterCh. 3 :

"3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:

3:16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction."

As Catholics, we must be docile to the authority of the Church when it comes to the interperetation of the scriptures. Private interpretation of scripture is of course one of the cornerstones of Protestantism, and explains why there are so many sects. In a sense all a protestant has to do is find a sect that doesn’t condemn his particular faults and join it. Common sense tells us that it’s not that easy. As you can see in the above quote, St. Peter says that certain writings of St. Paul are hard to understand, and not everyone is qualified to interperet them. I know I’m not, that’s why I turn to Holy Mother, the Church for guidance. I know you probably think I’m arrogant or sarcastic, but honestly in all charity, your last statement troubles me when you talk about people putting the Catholic Church above the word of God. That tells me that you have very little understanding or even respect for Church authority. Please, please pray to the Holy Spirit for greater understanding in this area. What you need to understand is that all of the dogmas of the Church are scripturally based. The Church no more places itself above the word of God than do the supreme court justices place themselves above the law. The scriptures themselves grant the Church supreme authority to interperet scripture, just as the consitution grants the supreme court the authority to interperate the constitution. I’d have to do some studying to find all of the texts to support this, but if you look up the documents of the first Vatican Council, that’s a good place to start.

God Bless and keep praying to the Holy Spirit for Guidance.
 
While alll matters of faith cannnot be explained, reason does inform faith. We have a loving Father who does not wish ill for any of his children. Jesus confronted those who claimed that His words were from Bezelbub with the words “a house divided cannot stand.” It makes no sense that Satan would heal in the name of Jesus Christ. Most of the prayer meetings I have attended begin with a prayer for God’s protection and will often include the Prayer to St. Michael. We place ourselves in the presence of the Lord. There is ectasy as we pray as David prayed, with abandon and without regard to what others may think.
There is more to the Charismatic Renewal than prayer meetings. God works on each of us individually. He works with each of his people, charismatic or not. Some individuals are just more open to hearing the word of God than others (again this has nothing to do with whether or not one has been given charismata).
It is true that one may find Job’s comforters within the Renewal, an issue I addressed earlier. Those who become a part of the Renewal enter at all levels of spiritual development. Some are new to Christianity and have had little instruction. Others are theologians and/or priests and members of religious communities who have already devoted their lives to God. It is easy for a new member to be “so full of the Spirit as to lose sight of the Spirit.”
As Trad Dad points out, “The Church no more puts itself above the word of God than the supreme court puts themselves above the law.” The teachings of the Catholic Church regarding the Charismatic Renewal have already been posted with links.
Palmas85 asks what would happen if the Holy Spirit didn’t show up. Once when I was angry with God, I asked Him to “leave me alone.” Now God never leaves any of us, but He gave me a week to feel what His absence would be like. Never again! This sense of abandonment is not the same thing as the Dark Night of the Soul of which St. John speaks and about which I learned after I became part of the renewal.
 
richard_wang said:
I content that what attracts people to the Charismatic movement is the experience of religious ecstasy.

Theologically, I know what ecstasy is, and as a Charismatic for 28 years, and a deacon for 17, I humbly admit I have never been in a state of ecstasy yet.
Their experiences are so strong that they feel this ecstasy as something necessarily outside of themselves.
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Deacon Ed: this thread caught my attention and I was interested in learning about the current status of the Charismatic Movement. I seem to recall that Pope John Paul II met with the leadership and supported them; has Pope Benedict XVI done this as well?

On a separate question: Isn’t the community of Little Portion Monastery (associated with the John Michael Talbot group) also charismatic in charism?

Thank you for your replies.
 
Thank you kindly. As a convert, tis gratifying to see how the Church is diverse yet unified. It shows the wisdom of accepting the many different personalities among the believers.
 
Plain_Catholic said:
Deacon Ed: this thread caught my attention and I was interested in learning about the current status of the Charismatic Movement. I seem to recall that Pope John Paul II met with the leadership and supported them; has Pope Benedict XVI done this as well?

On a separate question: Isn’t the community of Little Portion Monastery (associated with the John Michael Talbot group) also charismatic in charism?

Thank you for your replies.
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You might be interested in this other posts as well.
#105 Quote from Pope Benedict
#107 Scripture
#117 Cathecism of the Catholic Church
#217 United States Catechism of the Catholic Church
 
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