Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[stmaria]

=DebChris;3623294]While alll matters of faith cannnot be explained, reason does inform faith. We have a loving Father who does not wish ill for any of his children. Jesus confronted those who claimed that His words were from Bezelbub with the words “a house divided cannot stand.” It makes no sense that Satan would heal in the name of Jesus Christ

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Before the Second Coming of Christ:
Matthew 24:24 “ False messiahs and false prophets will appear, performing signs and wonders so great as to mislead even the chosen if that were possible”

2 Thessalonians 2:9 “ This lawless one will appear as part of the workings of Satan, accompanied by all the **power and signs and wonders **at the disposal of falsehood”

First Epistle of John 4:1 1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit, but put the spirit to the test to see if they belong to God”

There is more to the Charismatic Renewal than prayer meetings. God works on each of us individually. He works with each of his people, charismatic or not. Some individuals are just more open to hearing the word of God than others

When some began to speak in tongues, who is the interpreter? What is the “Holy Spirit” saying in tongues?

I would think that if speaking in tongues is real then shouldn’t the Pope experience this? At the synods of Bishops why don’t they speak in tongues?

 

[DebChris]

.
I would think that if speaking in tongues is real then shouldn’t the Pope experience this? At the synods of Bishops why don’t they speak in tongues?

I don’t know that he doesn’t. I do know bishops who do. As mentioned, it was the bishops of two different dioceses who concelebrated at the last FIRE rally I attended.
Again, FIRE stands for Faith, Intercessory Prayer, Repentence, and Evangelization. Are these things that Satan would want?
Does Satan want us to put our faith in God?
Nobody can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Spirit. Even the Romans had this knowledge and would test Christian to see if they would do the opposite, an impossibility.

Our relationship with Jesus Christ is more important than any of the gifts, no matter how spectacular any of these gifts might be.

I will mention Cursillo for a moment. I am also a cursillita. Many cursillitas are also charismatic, but not all. The focus of the cursillo weekend is catechesis. It is also understood that those who make a Cursillo come from very different backgrounds. Those of us with charismatic gifts did not manifest these gifts during the weekend.
The only time that I did was privately while sitting on my cot (I had been injured in a car accident and was on crutches so it was during an activity during which I could not participate). I prayed for the rest of the cursillitas.

 

[Plain_Catholic]

Oh aye: thank you, Deb. I was familiar with the CCC but the quote from Papa Ben is one I have not seen. Again, thank you.

You might be interested in this other posts as well.
#105 Quote from Pope Benedict
#107 Scripture
#117 Cathecism of the Catholic Church
#217 United States Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[Irish_Saints]

On a separate question: Isn’t the community of Little Portion Monastery (associated with the John Michael Talbot group) also charismatic in charism?

I just paid a visit to their website and was shocked to hear about the horrible fire and subsequent loss of their archives and buildings on April 29, 2008. From what I’ve been able to glean, aside from some minor smoke inhalation, nobody was seriously injured in the blaze (thanks be to God!)

http://www.johnmichaeltalbot.com/admin/img/AbbotJerome.jpg

I’m on a fixed income and am not sure what I can spare, but I will try to send them a small donation this month to help them along until their insurance kicks in. And of course, they will remain in my prayers.

I’ve always loved JMT’s music, even his “long hair” days had some real quality to it. “Come to the Quiet” has long been a backdrop for my meditations or as a soothing lullaby when I’m heading to bed.

Click here for their donation page. I realize this is somewhat off-topic, but under the circumstances, I hope it’ll be permitted.

Thanks and God bless!

 

[DebChris]

I just paid a visit to their website and was shocked to hear about the horrible fire and subsequent loss of their archives and buildings on April 29, 2008. From what I’ve been able to glean, aside from some minor smoke inhalation, nobody was seriously injured in the blaze (thanks be to God!)

http://www.johnmichaeltalbot.com/admin/img/AbbotJerome.jpg

I’m on a fixed income and am not sure what I can spare, but I will try to send them a small donation this month to help them along until their insurance kicks in. And of course, they will remain in my prayers.

I’ve always loved JMT’s music, even his “long hair” days had some real quality to it. “Come to the Quiet” has long been a backdrop for my meditations or as a soothing lullaby when I’m heading to bed.

Click here for their donation page. I realize this is somewhat off-topic, but under the circumstances, I hope it’ll be permitted.

Thanks and God bless!

Thanks for the update. Notice in their picture that they continue smiling despite the loss. I also like “Come to the Quiet” and other music by John Michael Talbot as a backdrop for meditations.

 

[daveqdimal]

Dave,
The more I think about it, I can only wonder why your feelings about the Charismatic movement are as negative as your post reflects. Has anything happened to make you feel this way. Have you had prior experience with it. Why are they so negative.
Deacon Ed B

I’m sorry for the gap. I was out of the loop for a long time.

But let me respond although a bit late. Why question my experience with the catholic charistmatics? If you want to play shrink, i would suggest you do it with somebody else. The issue is, the teachings of the charistmatics. And to name a few, baptism of the holy spirit, prayer of naming it and claiming it, sola scriptura, etc. Are these catholic teachings? In a teaching i attended, the speaker’s final word was, to ask us to regularly watch Joyce something, the teleevangelist. One speaker even said, you could receive communion even with a mortal sin. And this is even probably the largest charismatic community in the world and its founder is the head of the Papal council of Lay Organization. That is, what is totally repugnant to me. The teachings which are against our catholic church. Even as they declare that their organization is “One with the Catholic Church”, the actual situation is, catholics are being taught the wrong teachings, and the charismatic organization is showing a facade of a non-denominational protestant organization, to entice those who have protestant leanings.

And please dont tell me its a wrong impression, because what i have experienced is primary information.

Most recently, for whatever reason, there are signs that a push from upstairs for Catholic teachings, seems to be a direction this charismatic movement is ask to do. I could only infer ivoried tower expressions such as “one with the catholic church” seems to be trickling down the organization. This only mean, its non-catholic character is becoming an issue upstairs, even within the offices of the papacy.

I would hope the redirection comes to fruition and protestant beliefs be extirpated from Catholic Charismatic Organizations.

 

[DebChris]

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal does not teach sola scriptura. Discernment involves asking not only what scripture says but what the Church teaches and what prophesy says while considering the circumstances of one’s life. All must be in alignment.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the release fo the gifts each of us received in Baptism and Confirmation. It is not a Sacrament. It is the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[daveqdimal]

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal does not teach sola scriptura. Discernment involves asking not only what scripture says but what the Church teaches and what prophesy says while considering the circumstances of one’s life. All must be in alignment.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the release fo the gifts each of us received in Baptism and Confirmation. It is not a Sacrament. It is the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe that the non teaching of sola scriptura is true to the charismatic you know. But that is not true to two charismatics i had a chance to join, and they are all catholic charismatics.

What do you mean infilling of the Holy Spirit. You are the first theologian, from which i heard such theologically technical term. The holy spirit is given in Baptism and the gifts of the holy spirit is provided in our Confirmation. What “infillling” are you talking about. Is that part of any encyclical or the CCC or any official publication of church teachings. Maybe i missed that declaration from the Pontifical biblical Commission. Please enlighten me. For your info in one of the charismatic i had the unfortunate experience of joining, one of the elders was even contemptuous about the council of trent and Vatican II. He was defensive of being a Freemason. I talk from experience, i dont know where you’re getting your information.

Again tell me, about, the “infilling” and how it jives with the current catholic teachings as well as its relation to the teachings of our church fathers and how it is consistent with apostolic tradition. Maybe the church magisterium had issued a declaration on this. So please, kindly inform an uninitiated catholic like me.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

. Why question my experience with the catholic charistmatics? If you want to play shrink, i would suggest you do it with somebody else. The issue is, the teachings of the charistmatics. And to name a few, baptism of the holy spirit, prayer of naming it and claiming it, sola scriptura, etc. Are these catholic teachings? In a teaching i attended, the speaker’s final word was, to ask us to regularly watch Joyce something, the teleevangelist. One speaker even said, you could receive communion even with a mortal sin.

The only thing I can see here that I even recognize in what you claim to a teachings of the Charismatics -no denomination mentioned- (no movement - no group, where and what church or place)is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit is of the Charismatic movement. I have never heard of "Prayer of naming it and claiming it (what is that suppose to be) and OK to receive Communion if in mortal sin. **That certainly is not part of the Catholic Charismatic Movement. **That is like nothing I have ever seen or experienced. This Joyce the “televangelist” is not Catholic. How did you end up with that group.

And this is even probably the largest charismatic community in the world and its founder is the head of the Papal council of Lay Organization. That is, what is totally repugnant to me. The teachings which are against our catholic church. Even as they declare that their organization is “One with the Catholic Church”, the actual situation is, catholics are being taught the wrong teachings, and the charismatic organization is showing a facade of a non-denominational protestant organization, to entice those who have protestant leanings.

What you describe here definitely does not sound Catholic to me. Were you at this ? Who were the leaders? Where was this held.? If in a Church, what Church? What City or Country?

And please don’t tell me its a wrong impression, because what i have experienced is primary information.

Allegations are being made here, but are vague and short of specifics. Please be specific and name them. Or can you? And if you cannot, then why not?

Most recently, for whatever reason, there are signs that a push from upstairs for Catholic teachings, seems to be a direction this charismatic movement is ask to do. I could only infer ivoried tower expressions such as “one with the catholic church” seems to be trickling down the organization. This only mean, its non-catholic character is becoming an issue upstairs, even within the offices of the papacy.

This is vague gibberish and nonsense. Without dates, names, places ,when, all this appears to be is a availed satanic attack on something within the Church, that is harming Satan and his followers and he is fighting back trying to be divisive among those true, faithful Charismatics who hold to everything Catholic and are centered in the Eucharistic.

I would hope the redirection comes to fruition and protestant beliefs be extirpated from Catholic Charismatic Organizations.

This sounds good, but again nothing is specific. What protestant beliefs are being taught in this or being practiced in this. all I see is gibberish, no name, no times, no places, no circumstances, and we are suppose to believe this occurred at a Catholic Charismatic session. Where is and what is your empirical evidence to support any of this.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Leeta]

It is certainly a liturgical abuse to speak in tongues out loud at a Mass. I was ‘baptized’ in the Holy Spirit years before I became Catholic. It was rather like Cornelius’ experience in the Acts of the Apostles. A week afterward I was baptized. There is something supernatural to it. But tongues, St. Paul said are a sign for unbelievers. I was an unbeliever and would never have become Catholic, much less Christian. It was a special grace for someone who was going doing the wrong path.

Now as a Catholic, I’ve only attended one 'charismatic" Mass. It was so protestant and non-traditional. It seemed manufactured which is ironicly one of the Protestant charismatic’s criticism of liturgy. I found it shallow and superficial and not as deep as a correctly celebrated, traditional ordinary form Mass.
The Mass has developed over 2000 years and has become ordered so that we can go deep into God, especially in the extraordinary Latin form. It is oriented totally to the action of God. We are to enter into His action, not ‘perform our own’.
We aren’t archaeologists when it comes to the Mass. We are not to go back to the first century in all things, like the Church of Christ and some liberal Catholics think. I suppose being allowed to confess only one time as was practiced in the early Church is someting they will want to take up next.
And if you speak in tongues, you do it in private. St. Paul says that one must have an interpretation or else one should be quiet.
There is no mention of being ‘slain in the spirit’ as one of the charismatic gifts in I Cor. 12. This is obviously an invention. Also, the other noises and laughter is also an ‘invention of man’ and cannot be of God. St. Paul says that not evryone speaks in tongues. He says that we should instead seek after the greatest gift, love!
As for the Holy Mass, nothing beats the extraordinary rite Latin Mass. I always thought that Gregorian chant was the Church’s ordering of ‘singing in the Spirit’.
Protestantism is stuck at the beginning of the spritual life and this is the very beginning for those whom God chooses to turn to Him in this way. Catholics have everything as it is. God can bring people to Himself outside of the ordinary ways of the sacraments. This seems to be one of those outside the box ways, but a great many seem to have manufactured their own spirit for these activities.
I had that lengthing of the leg too, but it is hard to say if anything really happened. We didn’t have any before and after medical study. As for healing, we have the most powerful sacrament for that and the beauty of it is that it is not dependent on us or our feelings or lack thereof. It is completely God’s action through the priest.

 

[Margarite]

Leeta, that was beautiful!

 

[palmas85]

It is certainly a liturgical abuse to speak in tongues out loud at a Mass. I was ‘baptized’ in the Holy Spirit years before I became Catholic. It was rather like Cornelius’ experience in the Acts of the Apostles. A week afterward I was baptized. There is something supernatural to it. But tongues, St. Paul said are a sign for unbelievers. I was an unbeliever and would never have become Catholic, much less Christian. It was a special grace for someone who was going doing the wrong path.

Now as a Catholic, I’ve only attended one 'charismatic" Mass. It was so protestant and non-traditional. It seemed manufactured which is ironicly one of the Protestant charismatic’s criticism of liturgy. I found it shallow and superficial and not as deep as a correctly celebrated, traditional ordinary form Mass.
The Mass has developed over 2000 years and has become ordered so that we can go deep into God, especially in the extraordinary Latin form. It is oriented totally to the action of God. We are to enter into His action, not ‘perform our own’.
We aren’t archaeologists when it comes to the Mass. We are not to go back to the first century in all things, like the Church of Christ and some liberal Catholics think. I suppose being allowed to confess only one time as was practiced in the early Church is someting they will want to take up next.
And if you speak in tongues, you do it in private. St. Paul says that one must have an interpretation or else one should be quiet.
There is no mention of being ‘slain in the spirit’ as one of the charismatic gifts in I Cor. 12. This is obviously an invention. Also, the other noises and laughter is also an ‘invention of man’ and cannot be of God. St. Paul says that not evryone speaks in tongues. He says that we should instead seek after the greatest gift, love!
As for the Holy Mass, nothing beats the extraordinary rite Latin Mass. I always thought that Gregorian chant was the Church’s ordering of ‘singing in the Spirit’.
Protestantism is stuck at the beginning of the spritual life and this is the very beginning for those whom God chooses to turn to Him in this way. Catholics have everything as it is. God can bring people to Himself outside of the ordinary ways of the sacraments. This seems to be one of those outside the box ways, but a great many seem to have manufactured their own spirit for these activities.
I had that lengthing of the leg too, but it is hard to say if anything really happened. We didn’t have any before and after medical study. As for healing, we have the most powerful sacrament for that and the beauty of it is that it is not dependent on us or our feelings or lack thereof. It is completely God’s action through the priest.

I would submit that more than a few charismatics would not agree with you on this one.

 

[daveqdimal]

Either you refuse to understand or your simply playing dumb.

I am saying even though its suppose to be a catholic charismatic movement, its teachings encourages giving ear to tele evangelist and other protestant denominations. It might not directly teach sola scriptura, but it encourages private interpretation and quoting from protestant theologians such cs Lewis and never have i heard its lecturers quoting from official documents of catholic teachings, such as Provindessimus deus, dei verbum, divino afflante spiritu, and like documents which is a guide for catholic reading and interpretation of the bible.

Your limited knowledge of the movement, its origins and its current state of affairs blinds you to the truth of the kind of movement this charismatics are becoming. Probably you know of a few, who are really catholic but you dont have an appreciation of the big picture. One simple fact is their teaching of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. What baptism of the Holy Spirit are they talking about? The Holy Spirit is already within us in our Baptism and its gifts were provided in our Confirmation. Why are they teaching that the Holy Spirit only come in to a member who is being baptized in their rite without giving perspective to the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism.

And if your interest could not take you to a better appreciation of this phenomena worldwide, then im not forcing you to believe me. Believe whatever limited knowledge you have. Let other people search for the truth and find out for themselves what this “fad” within the catholic church is all about.

 

[DebChris]

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has been blessed by the popes from Paul VI to Benedict XVI. It is only one of many movements of the Holy Spirit cited in the United States Catholic Cathecism for Adults.
No person on this thread has overlooked the gifts received in Baptism and Confirmation. Nobody has claimed the necessity of receiving the charismata to be saved. That may be the teaching of a few non-Catholic denominations, but it is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. As Jesus healed those with whom He came in contact, He said, “Your faith has saved you.”
I have never claimed to be a theologian. What I have said is that when I first became charismatic I attended weekly prayer meetings at a retreat center. Every meeting included a teaching. It might be on the fruit of the Spirit or it might be about the various gifts of the Spirit.Discernment is a special gift that develops with time. Prophecy must always be subjected to discernment.
The gifts are given as God chooses. No one person has all the gifts.
It is from these meetings that I learned how the Catholic Church explains the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. As stated before, it is not a new Sacrament. The gifts we have are ready received are released to be used in service for the upbuilding of the kingdom of God.
As I was walking home, the parable of the sower came to mind. Each of us has received the seed, the Word of God in our hearts. Sometimes we have been distracted by worldly concerns. Other times we have been choked by weeds. Perhaps one way to explain what has happened is that God himself has taken upon himself the task of removing the weeds that have kept us from understanding or responding to His grace.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Well said Deb, well said
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[rien]

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has been blessed by the popes from Paul VI to Benedict XVI. It is only one of many movements of the Holy Spirit cited in the United States Catholic Cathecism for Adults.
No person on this thread has overlooked the gifts received in Baptism and Confirmation. Nobody has claimed the necessity of receiving the charismata to be saved. That may be the teaching of a few non-Catholic denominations, but it is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. As Jesus healed those with whom He came in contact, He said, “Your faith has saved you.”
I have never claimed to be a theologian. What I have said is that when I first became charismatic I attended weekly prayer meetings at a retreat center. Every meeting included a teaching. It might be on the fruit of the Spirit or it might be about the various gifts of the Spirit.Discernment is a special gift that develops with time. Prophecy must always be subjected to discernment.
The gifts are given as God chooses. No one person has all the gifts.
It is from these meetings that I learned how the Catholic Church explains the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. As stated before, it is not a new Sacrament. The gifts we have are ready received are released to be used in service for the upbuilding of the kingdom of God.
As I was walking home, the parable of the sower came to mind. Each of us has received the seed, the Word of God in our hearts. Sometimes we have been distracted by worldly concerns. Other times we have been choked by weeds. Perhaps one way to explain what has happened is that God himself has taken upon himself the task of removing the weeds that have kept us from understanding or responding to His grace.

Interesting thing. Some Catholic saints supposedly bilocated. Some dictated 3 letters at once. Some are incorrupt - supposedly. Signs of the Spirit. Which too many traditionalists acept w/o a second thought but deny all signs today.

If they were alive today I suspect some traditionalists would accuse them of being “pentecostal” at worst, charismatic at best.

Traditionalists so downplay the gifts - every bit as much as they assert charismatic Catholics up-play the gifts.

Bottom line, the Cartholic church is more Pentecostal than Baptist. As in unlike Baptists and non-Pentecostal Christians, it does not teach that the gifts ceased with the death of the last Apostle.

Read the Saints - they were in their physical manifesteations pentecostals or charismatics or whatever you prefer to call it.

The great weakness in most of traditional Catholcism IMO - an almost complete denial of the gifts of the Spirit. Un-scriptuaral and a denial of Church history.

 

[palmas85]

Interesting thing. Some vatholic saints supposedly bilocated. Sieen dictated 3 letter at once.

If they were alive today I suspect some taditionalists would accuse them of being
pentecostal" at worst, charismatic at best.

Traditioan;lists so downplay the gifts - as much as the assert charismatic catholics up-play the gifts.

Bottom line, the cartholic church is more Pentecostal than Baptist. As in unkile Baptists and non=Pentecostal Chritians it does not teach that the gifts ceased with the death of the last Apostle.

Read the Sainsts - they were ion theior physical manifesteations pentecolas or charismatics or whatever you prefer to call it.

The great weakness in most of traditional catholcism IMO - an almost complete denial of the gifts of the Spirit. Un-scriptuaral.

Interesting spelling that you use in this post. It kind of takes away from your message as I try to decipher exactly what you are saying.

As far as denial of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, could you explain your position a bit better?

 

[rien]

Interesting spelling that you use in this post. It kind of takes away from your message as I try to decipher exactly what you are saying.

As far as denial of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, could you explain your position a bit better?

I corrected my spelling. My position is clear. Read the corrected version, but better yet read the Saints. Many were charismatics/pentecostals - or more simply filled with the Holy Spirit and the gifts that Scripture promises that brings.

 

[palmas85]

Interesting thing. Some Catholic saints supposedly bilocated. Some dictated 3 letters at once. Some are incorrupt - supposedly. Signs of the Spirit. Which too many traditionalists acept w/o a second thought but deny all signs today.

If they were alive today I suspect some traditionalists would accuse them of being “pentecostal” at worst, charismatic at best.

Traditionalists so downplay the gifts - every bit as much as they assert charismatic Catholics up-play the gifts.

Bottom line, the Cartholic church is more Pentecostal than Baptist. As in unlike Baptists and non-Pentecostal Christians, it does not teach that the gifts ceased with the death of the last Apostle.

Read the Saints - they were in their physical manifesteations pentecostals or charismatics or whatever you prefer to call it.

The great weakness in most of traditional Catholcism IMO - an almost complete denial of the gifts of the Spirit. Un-scriptuaral and a denial of Church histroy.

I’ve read of the lives of many of the Saints. I have yet to hear of one who disrupted Masses constantly by speaking in tongues that no one could understand except them of course. I have seen and read of hundreds of miraculous healings at Lourdes yet alas, Blessed Bernadette wasn’t charismatic, didn’t draw attention to herself and died missing the one thing she wanted more than anything else, to see the face of the Blessed Virgin Mary just once more.

However, I have yet to see a Charismatic bi-locate or remain incorrupt after death. Likewise dictate three letters at once.

Which part of church history is that we deny? I’m interested. Also could you point out a few of the Saints who were admittedly charismatic?

 

[rien]

I’ve read of the lives of many of the Saints. I have yet to hear of one who disrupted Masses constantly by speaking in tongues that no one could understand except them of course. I have seen and read of hundreds of miraculous healings at Lourdes yet alas, Blessed Bernadette wasn’t charismatic, didn’t draw attention to herself and died missing the one thing she wanted more than anything else, to see the face of the Blessed Virgin Mary just once more.

However, I have yet to see a Charismatic bi-locate or remain incorrupt after death. Likewise dictate three letters at once.

Which part of church history is that we deny? I’m interested. Also could you point out a few of the Saints who were admittedly charismatic?

I think you refuse to be into history and read. Saints healed - as many pentecostals do today, but their healing isn’t real I guess, Yeah right. Why has the Catholic church lost this healing ministry? As Sienna and so many much earlier Catholics had? Why are the gifts now mostly manifest in pentecostal Christianity? Is that a sign from the Spirit? Of favor. Or not. Cause if you deny the healings in pentecostalism a pentecostal can equally deny healings by Catholics centuries ago. You seem to pick and choose. A Protestant tendency some might say.

Ask yourself why FSSP parishes are stagnant mostly and small almost w/o exception. What is missing - surely the Holy Spirit isn’t blessing these communities. Despite their legalalistic following of an ancient rubric these parishes are not setting souls on fire for the “true faith”. Are not winning souls. Pray over that.