Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[brigid12]

In the Traditional Epistle today, part of the reading was this

"FOR THE JEWS ASK FOR SIGNS AND THE GREEKS LOOK FOR WISDOM"

As I see it the Charismatic movement asks for signs and are severely disappointed if they don’t get them. They expect them. Maybe I’m wrong, but that is the way it appears. Physical manifestations do not always mean that something is true and correct. Healings, ecstatic utterances and prophecy may indeed be divinely inspired. But then again they may not be, and I have seen very little evidence that the Charismatic Movement takes any real steps to discern if the gifts are in fact divinely given, faked or inspired from other less benevolent sources…

From the meetings that I have attended there seems to be a lot of pressure on those attending to conform and to receive the gifts… For those who for whatever reason don’t receive the gifts, which does happen, what disappointment on their faces, being told that they are resisting or need to try harder if they want to receive the gifts to me seems completely out of sync with what is supposed to be going on. It seems at times almost as if there is a competition going on amongst he congregation as to who receives what and to what degree.

As I understand it the Holy Spirit descends when and upon whom He chooses, when He chooses, and how He chooses and ** not **when you want Him to or how you want Him to. No matter how hard you pray to receive the gifts it is up to Him when where and how that happens…

Often prayers are not answered, in fact I believe it was St Teresa that said she was glad that God did not answer her prayers for many years, because that time gave her the opportunity to grow and to understand what prayer really was.

I wonder how well attended these meetings would be if for a while the Holy Spirit stopped showing up on demand. . I can imagine they would thin out pretty quickly.

Just a thought.

This has been my experience exactly! I’ve really enjoyed the enthusiasm in large Charismatic Renewal meetings (conventions). I love the P&W music/singing there. I’ve even been known to use a “prayer language” occasionally when I’m by myself. But, I’ve noticed the same lack of discernment of spirits at prayer meetings myself and have been really bothered - one place it was enough that I didn’t go back even tho’ it was the only prayer meeting in the area I could attend. During the Baptism in the Holy Spirit seminar I was bothered when they lay hands on me and prayed for me to speak in tongues - without any mention of His Will.

 

[daveqdimal]

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has been blessed by the popes from Paul VI to Benedict XVI. It is only one of many movements of the Holy Spirit cited in the United States Catholic Cathecism for Adults.
No person on this thread has overlooked the gifts received in Baptism and Confirmation. Nobody has claimed the necessity of receiving the charismata to be saved. That may be the teaching of a few non-Catholic denominations, but it is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. As Jesus healed those with whom He came in contact, He said, “Your faith has saved you.”
I have never claimed to be a theologian. What I have said is that when I first became charismatic I attended weekly prayer meetings at a retreat center. Every meeting included a teaching. It might be on the fruit of the Spirit or it might be about the various gifts of the Spirit.Discernment is a special gift that develops with time. Prophecy must always be subjected to discernment.
The gifts are given as God chooses. No one person has all the gifts.
It is from these meetings that I learned how the Catholic Church explains the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. As stated before, it is not a new Sacrament. The gifts we have are ready received are released to be used in service for the upbuilding of the kingdom of God.
As I was walking home, the parable of the sower came to mind. Each of us has received the seed, the Word of God in our hearts. Sometimes we have been distracted by worldly concerns. Other times we have been choked by weeds. Perhaps one way to explain what has happened is that God himself has taken upon himself the task of removing the weeds that have kept us from understanding or responding to His grace.

Im sorry to be blunt, but saying Pope Paul the VI through Pope Benedict XVI, is a a sweeping statement. That is of course assuming these charismatics tow the line. That is, you respect the doctrine of the Catholic Church and you dont introduce “new theological terms” such as “gifts of the holy spirit” which had never been endorsed by the magisterium in official publications or verbal approval. And i see that other charismatics bear fruit, which mean they are led by the Holy Spirit. I respect everyone’s path to holiness even at times we stumble to our common vocation. My apprehensions stem from the fact that some charismatics using the platform of charismatic renewal uses the opportunity to espouse protestant beliefs, such as sola scriptura, freemasonry, prosperity gospel, and overemphasize mystical emotions, and the like, veering away from the teachings of our church.

I still have to be convinced of the utility of speaking in tongues, and find it uncomfortable hearing amorphous terms such as, infilling, discernment, other gifts of the holy spirit, which do not really build the church. Somebody has to come out with the exact definition and exposition of these so called charismatic theology so that it could properly be addressed in relation to the rest of the deposit of faith. I hope that your charismatic organization maintain its catholic character and would not fall prey to those who put up a facade of being catholic but have hidden agenda in converting nominal members within our ranks.

 

[DebChris]

Discernment of Spirits–The term given to the judgment whereby to determine from what spirit the impulses of the soul emanate
Source: On-line Catholic Encyclopedia

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Im sorry to be blunt, but saying Pope Paul the VI through Pope Benedict XVI, is a a sweeping statement. That is of course assuming these charismatics tow the line.

I see by this sstatement, you have much reading to do yet. Better get started

, you respect the doctrine of the Catholic Church and you dont introduce “new theological terms” such as “gifts of the holy spirit” which had never been endorsed by the magisterium in official publications or verbal approval.

Now you really don’t know what you are talking about. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not new terms, but are scriptural. You should know that if you have read the epistles of St Paul. He discusses them quite well. And yes, the Magisterium does “endorse”, as you say, the authenticity of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As far as another “approved publication” besides the bible, try the Catechism of the Catholic Church under paragraph # 1831.

My apprehensions stem from the fact that some charismatics using the platform of charismatic renewal uses the opportunity to espouse protestant beliefs, such as sola scriptura, freemasonry, prosperity gospel, and overemphasize mystical emotions, and the like, veering away from the teachings of our church.

The shortest answer I can think of this is** BULL**. If you are experiencing these at a Charismatic prayer meeting, try going to one that is Catholic. I have been Charismatic for 28 years and have never experienced this tripe that you have just said. You had better watch the company you keep, because if this is what they are doing, they are leading you astray.

I still have to be convinced of the utility of speaking in tongues, and find it uncomfortable hearing amorphous terms such as, infilling, discernment, other gifts of the holy spirit, which do not really build the church.

To this, I can only suggest you have a heart to heart talk with the Holy Spirit and a come to Jesus talk with Jesus.

Somebody has to come out with the exact definition and exposition of these so called charismatic theology so that it could properly be addressed in relation to the rest of the deposit of faith. I hope that your charismatic organization maintain its catholic character and would not fall prey to those who put up a facade of being catholic but have hidden agenda in converting nominal members within our ranks.

Charismatic theology, is not a different theology as you seem to think, but embraces totally and completely the theology of the Catholic Church, which by some of your comments above seems to be very deficient. That said, what is your theological background to be making statements such as you have asserted.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[stmaria]

=rien;3635397]I think you refuse to be into history and read. Saints healed - as many pentecostals do today, but their healing isn’t real I guess,

It is possible that the “healing” by pentecostals is not real of in fact my come from the devil. Remember the scriptures say that before the second coming, Satan will deceive the elect by performing miracles.
Why hasn’t the Holy Spirit told these Penetecostals that there is only One True Church and that they should return to that Church.?

Ask yourself why FSSP parishes are stagnant mostly and small almost w/o exception. What is missing - surely the Holy Spirit isn’t blessing these communities

.

Stagnant? FSSP parishes are growing despite all of the obstacles put up by the local bishops.

Despite their legalalistic following of an ancient rubric these parishes are not setting souls on fire for the “true faith”. Are not winning souls. Pray over that.

You are making yourself look foolish with such uniformed nonsence. Your agenda is showing.

 

[daveqdimal]

Mr Deacon:

You seem to be bent on ridiculing your fellow catholic and the tone of your message is typically arrogant closely knitted with self righteousness, just like the Pharisees. Better read Matthew chapter 23:23. I say again, “ignorance is loud” and probably you havent heard of the paradox of knowledge, which says, “the more one knows, the more he realizes he doesnt know anything”. Thus, those in the know, has the virtue of humility. As Erasmus would say, “Not knowledge threatened the true christian religion and genuine piety, but ignorance and lack of education which always enslaves men and makes them intolerant, fanatical and quarrelsome”. Hosea was more emphatic and said, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”. You try to pretend you know something, but a simple fact in my message that i am a catholic and i had been a member of several catholic charismatic organizations seems to elude your intellectual prowess.

Well, let me just end with a statement which just might take you another week, to comprehend.

“Truth, in the midst of catechetical paucity, rather than stir
up intellectual craving and inspire a living faith, maybe so
blinding to the uninitiated, on the contrary might lead to
mundane recourse”.

 

[palmas85]

I think you refuse to be into history and read. Saints healed - as many pentecostals do today, but their healing isn’t real I guess, Yeah right. Why has the Catholic church lost this healing ministry? As Sienna and so many much earlier Catholics had? Why are the gifts now mostly manifest in pentecostal Christianity? Is that a sign from the Spirit? Of favor. Or not. Cause if you deny the healings in pentecostalism a pentecostal can equally deny healings by Catholics centuries ago. You seem to pick and choose. A Protestant tendency some might say.

Ask yourself why FSSP parishes are stagnant mostly and small almost w/o exception. What is missing - surely the Holy Spirit isn’t blessing these communities. Despite their legalalistic following of an ancient rubric these parishes are not setting souls on fire for the “true faith”. Are not winning souls. Pray over that.

What in the world are you trying to say?. You are all over the map with this one. I have never said that were no Saints that healed, I never said there were no saints that did not have the gifts of the Holy Spirit. What I said was that Holy Spirit descends upon whom He chooses, when He chooses where He chooses and how he chooses. It is not up to us. As far as healings yes, there have been miraculous healings throughout the centuries. But not on demand, week after week and put on almost as a sideshow. Step right up and be healed my friend:thumbsup:

St, Catherine was indeed the conduit for healings as well as many other things but the healings were not a central part of an organized ministry that she was involved in. From everything I have read about her they were a relatively small part of her life as she was primarily concerned with other things, trying to re-unite the Church among them.

As far as the size of congregations, Jesus himself had very few who followed Him and at the end was abandoned by most of those. The size of a Church is not what determines its validity my friend not at all. In fact, often a Church that is larger is not necessarily correct as it may be teaching error, but because people like the way it sounds and what it teaches, it is well attended.

The heresy of Arianism infected about 75% of the Church at one point until it was put down. I think it good to remember that fact.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Mr Deacon:

You seem to be bent on ridiculing your fellow catholic and the tone of your message is typically arrogant closely knitted with self righteousness, just like the Pharisees. Better read Matthew chapter 23:23. I say again, “ignorance is loud” and probably you havent heard of the paradox of knowledge, which says, “the more one knows, the more he realizes he doesnt know anything”. Thus, those in the know, has the virtue of humility. As Erasmus would say, “Not knowledge threatened the true christian religion and genuine piety, but ignorance and lack of education which always enslaves men and makes them intolerant, fanatical and quarrelsome”. Hosea was more emphatic and said, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”. You try to pretend you know something, but a simple fact in my message that i am a catholic and i had been a member of several catholic charismatic organizations seems to elude your intellectual prowess.

Well, let me just end with a statement which just might take you another week, to comprehend.

“Truth, in the midst of catechetical paucity, rather than stir
up intellectual craving and inspire a living faith, maybe so
blinding to the uninitiated, on the contrary might lead to
mundane recourse”.

So why don’t you answer any of my questions.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[daveqdimal]

I was hoping you would try to research and find out the incumbent head of the Papal Council for Lay organization from which you would know which charismatic movement im talking about. If you dont have that initiative, then lets leave at that.

I am praying for all charismatic organization be like the one you belong to now, since its catholic character remains to be consistent.

I am thankful for our exchange of ideas and hope both of us learned from it.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I was hoping you would try to research and find out the incumbent head of the Papal Council for Lay organization from which you would know which charismatic movement im talking about. If you dont have that initiative, then lets leave at that.

I am praying for all charismatic organization be like the one you belong to now, since its catholic character remains to be consistent.

I am thankful for our exchange of ideas and hope both of us learned from it.

You will remain in my prayers. Please do the same for me
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[daveqdimal]

Amen!!!

And hoping we’ll be friends and continue to enlighten one another.

Thanks Ed.

 

[DebChris]

My friend just finished a Life in the Spirit Seminar.
She shared this story at our weekly Cursillo meeting.
“I was riding with my friend and we needed to go to the coliseum. Now usually on streets, you will find signs to show you where you’re going so we prayed, ‘Lord, show us a sign’”

Do those of us who go to charismatic meetings get excited? To this I would say the answer is ‘yes.’ How would you feel if you received a phone call from the president or the governor (other than campaign calls)? It is a humbling experience to be in God’s presence,to hear His voice, or to discover how He truly does know when I sit and when I stand (previous post),
None of us can speak to anybody else’s experience but I do know that my God is an awesome God capable of rolling “back the waters of the mighty Red Sea.” We are called to offer our sacrifice of praise.
What the popes have said has already been posted. I will need to go back to find when Pope Paul VI let Cardinal Seunen of Brussels celebrate a charismatic Mass in the basilica. I think it was 1976.
Many of the saints, like Teresa of Lieseux prayed a nightly prayer of abandonment, a giving of self to Christ. One of the common songs sung at the meetings I have attended is “Melt me, Mold me” as we pray to be shaped into the person that God would have each of to be, to place ourselves on the potter’s wheel.
I like the message my pastor gave at Mass last Sunday. “Obedience is not a requirement of Love. It is a consequence. Obedience [to God’s Will] is an act of love.”

 

[rien]

It is possible that the “healing” by pentecostals is not real of in fact my come from the devil. Remember the scriptures say that before the second coming, Satan will deceive the elect by performing miracles.
Why hasn’t the Holy Spirit told these Penetecostals that there is only One True Church and that they should return to that Church.?

.

Stagnant? FSSP parishes are growing despite all of the obstacles put up by the local bishops.

You are making yourself look foolish with such uniformed nonsence. Your agenda is showing.

The truth is healing occurs in Catholcism, Protestanism, Islam, Hinduism and New Age. I suspect some pentecostals who don’t accept marian doctrines of the church would say the Lourdes healings are from the devil. They has ever bit as much right to claim that as you do that their healings are from false spirits.

As to the FSSP can you provide me a source about an FSSP parish that is winning lots of converts? Not just catholics joining because they are not happy with the NO.

Ther is only one really large vibrant and growing FSSP mission I can think of . It is in Virginia or Georgia.

 

[DebChris]

I just found this on the Catholic Charismatic Center Website:

In the Baptism of the Spirit there is a secret, mysterious move of God that is His way of becoming present, in a way that is different for each one because only He knows us in our inner part and how to act upon our unique personality. There is also the external community part which is the same for everyone and consists mainly of three things: brotherly love, laying on of hands, and prayer. These are non-sacramental but simply ecclesiastic elements

This comes from Fr. Cantalamesa, the Papal preacher to John Paul II’s household from 1980.

 

[palmas85]

The truth is healing occurs in Catholcism, Protestanism, Islam, Hinduism and New Age. I suspect some pentecostals who don’t accept marian doctrines of the church would say the Lourdes healings are from the devil. They has ever bit as much right to claim that as you do that their healings are from false spirits.

As to the FSSP can you provide me a source about an FSSP parish that is winning lots of converts? Not just catholics joining because they are not happy with the NO.

Ther is only one really large vibrant and growing FSSP mission I can think of . It is in Virginia or Georgia.

What utter difference could it possibly make where the new members come from? I believe the poster who answered you is correct, your true agenda is definitely showing.

 

[stmaria]

=rien;3637332]The truth is healing occurs in Catholcism, Protestanism, Islam, Hinduism and New Age. I suspect some pentecostals who don’t accept marian doctrines of the church would say the Lourdes healings are from the devil. They has ever bit as much right to claim that as you do that their healings are from false spirits.

Rien, Rien, Rien what can I say to you? New Age has healings from God? Hinduism, a pagan religion, has healings from God?
I bet you believe that Benny Hinn heals also???
Let the bodies hit the floor!!!
youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

As to the FSSP can you provide me a source about an FSSP parish that is winning lots of converts? Not just catholics joining because they are not happy with the NO.

Here is a list of the different diocese that have the FSSP. Not bad for a group of priests that could only say Mass with permission from reluctant bishops that would most often allow the traditional Mass to be said in out of the way places, often only once a month.
fssp.org/en/coordonnees.htm

 

[StillTrying]

I’ve read all the postings since the OP. This must qualify me for some kind of indulgence, even if it’s just a partial… LOL

I was drawn to this thread because I am having a problem reconciling what are being professed as charismatic practices in my parish with my own limited understanding of the faith. Since our parish has become more “charismatic”, there has been an emphasis on holding hands during the Our Father and holding our hands up and swaying during the Gloria and the Alleluia. Even a cursory read of these forums shows these to be divisive practices as they are not the gestures specified in the GIRM as being appropriate for those prayers. Also, plain old folks out of the pews (like me) are suddenly speaking in tongues (unintelligibly, of course) and laying hands on people and praying for healings (unfortunately, none of the critically ill folks I know who have been prayed over have managed to get up and walk out of the hospital).

Do the gifts of the Spirit occur? Of course! Does any true Catholic want to be closer to God? Again, of course! However I, with my homegrown sense of the faith can’t square with the divisiveness I see in the parish. I would think that when the Holy Spirit authentically manifests himself among Baptised and Confirmed Catholics, that it should be recognizable and that half of us wouldn’t be wondering if there wasn’t some scandal involved.

So, I guess what I don’t understand is how to discern between self-proclaimed charismatics who seem to want to blame you if you can’t work up a miracle for them and authentic charismatics who are actually trying to build up the Church?

John Paul wrote:
At this moment in the Church’s history, the Charismatic Renewal can play a significant role in promoting the much–needed defence of Christian life in societies where secularism and materialism have weakened many people’s ability to respond to the Spirit and to discern God’s loving call. Your contribution to the re–evangelization of society will be made in the first place by personal witness to the indwelling Spirit and by showing forth his presence through works of holiness and solidarity.

I’m all for the re-evangelization of our culture, God knows it needs it especially in the face of the threats of relativism, secularism and materialism, but I don’t see how the re-evangalization can occur using practices that divide us.

(fyi, daveq (in charity), perhaps the term that DebChris was shooting for was indwelling, see above).

 

[palmas85]

Rien, Rien, Rien what can I say to you? New Age has healings from God? Hinduism, a pagan religion, has healings from God?
I bet you believe that Benny Hinn heals also???
Let the bodies hit the floor!!!
youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

]

You see the difference in Catholic Charismatics and protestant charismatics is that the Catholic Charismatics are real as opposed to the protestant charismatics, from whom the initial laying of hands was by the way, are not. You would never see such antics as in this video from Catholic Charismatics. How could you even think such a thing:tsktsk:

 

[daveqdimal]

I’ve read all the postings since the OP. This must qualify me for some kind of indulgence, even if it’s just a partial… LOL

I was drawn to this thread because I am having a problem reconciling what are being professed as charismatic practices in my parish with my own limited understanding of the faith. Since our parish has become more “charismatic”, there has been an emphasis on holding hands during the Our Father and holding our hands up and swaying during the Gloria and the Alleluia. Even a cursory read of these forums shows these to be divisive practices as they are not the gestures specified in the GIRM as being appropriate for those prayers. Also, plain old folks out of the pews (like me) are suddenly speaking in tongues (unintelligibly, of course) and laying hands on people and praying for healings (unfortunately, none of the critically ill folks I know who have been prayed over have managed to get up and walk out of the hospital).

Do the gifts of the Spirit occur? Of course! Does any true Catholic want to be closer to God? Again, of course! However I, with my homegrown sense of the faith can’t square with the divisiveness I see in the parish. I would think that when the Holy Spirit authentically manifests himself among Baptised and Confirmed Catholics, that it should be recognizable and that half of us wouldn’t be wondering if there wasn’t some scandal involved.

So, I guess what I don’t understand is how to discern between self-proclaimed charismatics who seem to want to blame you if you can’t work up a miracle for them and authentic charismatics who are actually trying to build up the Church?

John Paul wrote:
At this moment in the Church’s history, the Charismatic Renewal can play a significant role in promoting the much–needed defence of Christian life in societies where secularism and materialism have weakened many people’s ability to respond to the Spirit and to discern God’s loving call. Your contribution to the re–evangelization of society will be made in the first place by personal witness to the indwelling Spirit and by showing forth his presence through works of holiness and solidarity.

I’m all for the re-evangelization of our culture, God knows it needs it especially in the face of the threats of relativism, secularism and materialism, but I don’t see how the re-evangalization can occur using practices that divide us.

(fyi, daveq (in charity), perhaps the term that DebChris was shooting for was indwelling, see above).

Im a bit taken aback by such words, “by personal witness to the indwelling Spirit and by showing forth his presence through works of holiness and solidarity”. What does that praise actually mean? Does that mean a spectacular, sensational, highly conspicuous, manifestation and exposition of Holiness that dwells in us? Isnt there, a contradiction on what VAT II, which says, “Our vocation to Holiness should manifest in our ORDINARY LIVES”? Does not the church honor simplicity in canonizing candidates for sainthood aside from the qualification of the “Divine Fruits” of the Holy Spirit. Just a query! Maybe an impartial explanation is in the offing.

 

[daveqdimal]

sorry wrong spelling of “praise”. Erratum, it should have been phrase.