Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[una_fides]

Wayyyy too much to read on this thread, so i’ll just put in my two cents.

First, the Pentecostal movement began in Protestant Churches–not Catholic ones. It did not begin among those faithful to Christ’s teachings and his Church but–to be blunt–by heretics who reject the authority of the apostles. “He who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16).

Second, these movements are full of heresies in and of themselves and infect the Catholic faithful with such teachings, such as that there is a second coming of the Holy Spirit upon those who speak with tongues, etc.

Third, I am not aware of any record of Catholic saints uttering gibberish and calling it speaking in tongues. I am also unaware of any record of speaking in tongues by the faithful throughout the history of the Catholic Church outside of what occurred at Pentecost.

Lastly, if God were inspiring Protestants with supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit including the gifts of prophecy, which they claim, then wouldn’t God first and foremost be telling these people to return to the unity of the one true Church of Christ–the Catholic Church?

Ok. so i guess that’s my 2 cents with an extra 2 cents included for free.

 

[stmaria]

Im a bit taken aback by such words, “by personal witness to the indwelling Spirit and by showing forth his presence through works of holiness and solidarity”. What does that praise actually mean? Does that mean a spectacular, sensational, highly conspicuous, manifestation and exposition of Holiness that dwells in us? Isnt there, a contradiction on what VAT II, which says, “Our vocation to Holiness should manifest in our ORDINARY LIVES”? Does not the church honor simplicity in canonizing candidates for sainthood aside from the qualification of the “Divine Fruits” of the Holy Spirit. Just a query! Maybe an impartial explanation is in the offing.

You have hit it on the head. I would be willing to bet that Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict have no idea of what is being claimed by the Charismatics. The word ‘speaking in tongues’ never is written. In the above quote pope John Paul says “showing forth his presence through works of holiness and solidarity”. He doesn’t say the Spirit shows His Presence by speaking in unknown languages at a moments notice or being slain in the spirit etc.

 

[stmaria]

=una fides;3640553]

First, the Pentecostal movement began in Protestant Churches–not Catholic ones. It did not begin among those faithful to Christ’s teachings and his Church but–to be blunt–by heretics who reject the authority of the apostles. “He who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16).

Second, these movements are full of heresies in and of themselves and infect the Catholic faithful with such teachings, such as that there is a second coming of the Holy Spirit upon those who speak with tongues, etc.

]
This is the problem I also have. Why did the Spirit first show up in a false Church? Why didn’t the Holy Spirit tell they to give up their false teachings and return to the One True Church? The bible predicts that before the second coming Satan will work miracles to deceive. This is what I beleive is happening here. let’s not for get that Voodoo religions also speak in tongues.

COTONOU, April 9 (Reuters)** - Voodoo priests cried out in tongues and made sacrificial offerings **on Wednesday, imploring God and the ancestors to help free French-Colombian hostage Ingrid Betancourt from the hands of Colombia’s FARC rebels.

The ritual by initiates in Benin, the West African home of the ancient religion, was part of a three-day programme of fasting and prayer decreed by President Thomas Yayi Boni for Betancourt, who has been held hostage since 2002.

Some initiates cried out in unintelligible tongues.
alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L09932328.htm

 

[una_fides]

We are not to go back to the first century in all things, like the Church of Christ and some liberal Catholics think. I suppose being allowed to confess only one time as was practiced in the early Church is someting they will want to take up next.

Unfortunately, many of these liberals would be happy to reduce confession to once in a lifetime or less if they could since many of them reject 2000 years of Tradition and therefore do not see the point. However, I’m sure they would not be too fond of the confessing publicly their most grievous sins in order to be brought back into communion with the Church. I doubt any of them would be thrilled to get up in front of the church and confess committing adultery and then do years of penance before being allowed to receive Communion again. Yeah, so when are we planning to return to 1st and 2nd century liturgies again?

 

[daveqdimal]

Wayyyy too much to read on this thread, so i’ll just put in my two cents.

First, the Pentecostal movement began in Protestant Churches–not Catholic ones. It did not begin among those faithful to Christ’s teachings and his Church but–to be blunt–by heretics who reject the authority of the apostles. “He who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16).

Second, these movements are full of heresies in and of themselves and infect the Catholic faithful with such teachings, such as that there is a second coming of the Holy Spirit upon those who speak with tongues, etc.

Third, I am not aware of any record of Catholic saints uttering gibberish and calling it speaking in tongues. I am also unaware of any record of speaking in tongues by the faithful throughout the history of the Catholic Church outside of what occurred at Pentecost.

Lastly, if God were inspiring Protestants with supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit including the gifts of prophecy, which they claim, then wouldn’t God first and foremost be telling these people to return to the unity of the one true Church of Christ–the Catholic Church?

Ok. so i guess that’s my 2 cents with an extra 2 cents included for free.

If i remember right, the origin was with two men, one pastor from an pentecostal church and one priest from our catholic church. Be that as it may, I would respect the authority of our church and consider them still part of our church, as long as there is that “analogy of Faith” i will be heeding St Peter’s admonition regarding the “Obedience of faith”. NOnetheless as i have said before in this blog, my experience, indicates an infiltration of the two charismatic (catholic) organizations i was a member of, by evangelicals (whatever that means), freemasons, fundamentalists, and other protestant denominations. Implicitly, their agenda is showing, in their plan to convert catholics into their denomination by gradually and subtly introducting doctrines such as sola scriptura, justification, and so and so forth. I also believe there are ‘real’ catholics and knows the fundamentals of Catholic teaching and would be in a position to neutralize hidden agendas. On the other hand, there are a lot of cradle catholics who unfortunately would fall prey to this clandestine efforts by protestantism. Again, as i shared before, it would seem Pope Benedict is looking closely on the developments and gut feel tells me, there are directions from Vatican for these Charismatic Organizations to tow the line, and that is, to educate their membership of the Catholic Teachings.

For me, that is light at the end of the tunnel, and the Holy Spirit would then truly manifest in this charismatic movement which i consider part of the “inculturation” of our churches, nothwithstanding our traditional and distinct catholic culture . I still have faith in what Jesus had said, “And the gates of hell shall not prevail against you”.

 

[palmas85]

If i remember right, the origin was with two men, one pastor from an pentecostal church and one priest from our catholic church. Be that as it may, I would respect the authority of our church and consider them still part of our church, as long as there is that “analogy of Faith” i will be heeding St Peter’s admonition regarding the “Obedience of faith”. NOnetheless as i have said before in this blog, my experience, indicates an infiltration of the two charismatic (catholic) organizations i was a member of, by evangelicals (whatever that means), freemasons, fundamentalists, and other protestant denominations. Implicitly, their agenda is showing, in their plan to convert catholics into their denomination by gradually and subtly introducting doctrines such as sola scriptura, justification, and so and so forth. I also believe there are ‘real’ catholics and knows the fundamentals of Catholic teaching and would be in a position to neutralize hidden agendas. On the other hand, there are a lot of cradle catholics who unfortunately would fall prey to this clandestine efforts by protestantism. Again, as i shared before, it would seem Pope Benedict is looking closely on the developments and gut feel tells me, there are directions from Vatican for these Charismatic Organizations to tow the line, and that is, to educate their membership of the Catholic Teachings.

For me, that is light at the end of the tunnel, and the Holy Spirit would then truly manifest in this charismatic movement which i consider part of the “inculturation” of our churches, nothwithstanding our traditional and distinct catholic culture . I still have faith in what Jesus had said, “And the gates of hell shall not prevail against you”.

I’m not sure which beginning you are referring to. The Charismatic movement as a whole developed solely within a few fundamentalis protestant communities in the early 1900’s as a response to the liberalism that was taking the Protestant communities and seminaries by storm. In Catholicism it began after a Catholic Priest and college professor was prayed over and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit from a protestant pastor, I believe Episcopalian. He along with others then introduced it to his students who attended a retreat at Duquesne University.

Some of those students also received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at this retreat and thus was born the entire Catholic charismatic renewal movement.

 

[daveqdimal]

Mea Culpa! You’re right…

 

[una_fides]

If i remember right, the origin was with two men, one pastor from an pentecostal church and one priest from our catholic church. Be that as it may, I would respect the authority of our church and consider them still part of our church, as long as there is that “analogy of Faith” i will be heeding St Peter’s admonition regarding the “Obedience of faith”. …

If you are referring to the origin of the charismatic movement, then you are way off. It was 100% protestant. and pentacostalism came later, as the formal manifestation of their heretical group. It sounds like you are Catholic. If so, then how can you accept that heretical groups started such a movement? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit would manifest Himself to those who reject the see of Peter and thereby cut themselves off from God’s grace? The authority of the Church has infallibly spoken on such matters in the past. Just because the current authority of the Church permits such to take place does not mean that it is necessarily good. Even St. Peter himself engaged in actions recorded in Scripture for which the Apostle Paul had to withstand him to his face. Unless the Church has ruled infallibly or definitely on the issue, then we must petition her to remove this deadly poison from her flock as it had already caused millions to leave the Catholic faith in favor of more comfortable protestant “spirit led churches.” Once faith is reduced to feelings, you loose all objectivity and the Spirit of Truth ceases to be able to work through feelings alone. If Protestants humbly begged light from heaven, there is no doubt that they would be converted and enter the unity of the Catholic Church. The problem is that this movement is not inspired by God because it does not lead to the fullness of truth. Who else does that leave as the founder?

 

[gloriajean]

I’m new here, very new to the forums, but not new in the Catholic Charismatic Movement. I’ve been involved since the 70’s and it enriched my Catholic Faith - My husband and I do pray in tongues, it’s letting the Holy Spirit pray thru you. It’s nothing to be ashamed of or afraid of. I prayed for this gift and I received it.
My very first Catholic Charismatic Conference in 1975, I’ll never forget! Fr. Michael Scanlon was a speaker, he was the President of the Franciscan University at Steubinville, Ohio. My two Crosier uncles, and two Benedictine aunts were there, and my two cousins that are priests, along with my Franciscan blood sister, and other married sisters! What a wonderful experience! We went to a lot more Conferences and went to a Sunday night Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting - and the one who started that prayer meeting was my very own favorite teacher from High School, a Benedictine nun.
My cousin says Charismatic Masses every Tuesday night in his Parish. My goodness! How beautiful and moving!

My Spiriitual Director is a Catholic Charismatic priest!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Gloria Jean, welcome to the forum. It is wonderful having another Charismatic with us to help people realize that this movement is of the Holy Spirit and not as some believe, vociferously I might add, that is is of the devil and leading good Catholics astray. Nothing could be further than the truth. I don’t know if you have read the entire thread, it might take just a little bit of time, but it will be an eye opener as to feelings about this that I never thought existed. Again, welcome to the forum.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[StillTrying]

Hi Deacon Ed!

You know, I’ve seen some folks really come alive in their Catholicism after attending charismatic seminars. But I guess I’m with some of the other posters here as I don’t know of any systematic guide to the charismatic practice. A few weeks ago it broke my heart when I head of a friend of mine who was praying over another friend of mine for healing and was apparently distressed when the healing didn’t happen. I’ve also been around priests who say that if they pray over you, and you’re not healed, then you have some other “blockage” or “problem” that must be handled first.
I almost walked out of the Mass where I heard that one. I don’t know what insulted me more, the insinuation that the sufferer wasn’t doing enough, or the implication that the Holy Spirit wasn’t able to perform the requested healing (since when are there miracles that God CAN:T perform?).
It sounds alot like there’s “responsible” or “conforming” charismatics and then there’s other, less “responsible” practices that don’t seem to conform to the rest of the Church’s teachings.
How do you tell the difference? How does one police this sort of thing? Is there a repository of charismatic “practices” that one can then measure a group’s activity by?

Really, I don’t mean to be argumentative. I have just seen this sort of thing and it seems to cause a great deal of divisivness in the Body of Christ, which can’t be the intention of the Spirit.

Most humbly…

 

[Irish_Saints]

Welcome to the bloodbath, StillTrying!

Just a quick note: be certain you don’t forget the good deacon’s initial! I made the mistake once of neglecting his “B”, to my ongoing trauma and shame!

Errr…ahh…nothing to see here, Mr. Deacon Ed B, sir. Nothing at all!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Welcome to the bloodbath, StillTrying!

Just a quick note: be certain you don’t forget the good deacon’s initial! I made the mistake once of neglecting his “B”, to my ongoing trauma and shame!

Errr…ahh…nothing to see here, Mr. Deacon Ed B, sir. Nothing at all!

NOOO problem. To Still trying. There are two deacon Eds I was the second one to join the forum with that name, so I use Deacon Ed B to differentiate. What I get a kick out of is when we both make posts back to back with slightly different answers, and people don’t realize we are two different people. That has made for some interesting dialog.
Prayers & blessings
deacon Ed B

 

[StillTrying]

Dagnabit! I saw Irish’s faux pas and still didn’t learn from it. Hmmm, there should be a moral there someplace…

I was trying to direct the questions to Deacon Ed B (at least I think I was…) as he seemed most knowledgeable, helpful and has the most prominent initials…

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Hi Deacon Ed! You know, I’ve seen some folks really come alive in their Catholicism after attending charismatic seminars. But I guess I’m with some of the other posters here as I don’t know of any systematic guide to the charismatic practice. A few weeks ago it broke my heart when I head of a friend of mine who was praying over another friend of mine for healing and was apparently distressed when the healing didn’t happen. I’ve also been around priests who say that if they pray over you, and you’re not healed, then you have some other “blockage” or “problem” that must be handled first.

Not all people have the same gifts of the Holy Spirit. God uses us, as he sees fit, not as we see fit. If a person is not healed, it has nothing to do with the person praying for the healing. Remember, God does not answer our prayers as we always want him to do. He answers them as he, in his infinite wisdom, knows is best for our salvation. God may be using the illness, injury, or whatever, to bring about a greater good. That is why evil is permitted… If we don’t believe this, we only have to consider the crucifixion. From the greatest evil ever perpetrated by man, came the greatest good ever achieved for man, i.e., our redemption.

I don’t know what insulted me more, the insinuation that the sufferer wasn’t doing enough, or the implication that the Holy Spirit wasn’t able to perform the requested healing (since when are there miracles that God CAN:T perform?).

Not knowing all the circumstances here, it makes it rather difficult to respond to. There are no miracles God cannot perform. but it would be rather presumptuous to think that he is there at my beck and call. Jesus even used the example of a parent knowing what is best for his/her child and does not give the child anything it asks for. If a mere human creature does this, how much more would our God, our savior, our redeemer, our creator know what is best for us.

It sounds a lot like there’s “responsible” or “conforming” charismatics and then there’s other, less “responsible” practices that don’t seem to conform to the rest of the Church’s teachings.

You will find this everywhere in every organization. Its called the human condition.

How do you tell the difference? How does one police this sort of thing? Is there a repository of charismatic “practices” that one can then measure a group’s activity by?

Check with the chancery for your local diocese. They usually have a priest or a nun who works with this, or can refer you to a local Catholic charismatic center.

Really, I don’t mean to be argumentative. I have just seen this sort of thing and it seems to cause a great deal of divisiveness in the Body of Christ, which can’t be the intention of the Spirit.Most humbly…

Again, this goes to the human condition. All baptized people are members of the Mystical Body. To find out how divisive this can be, just look in the yellow pages under churches. Count the number of different ones. There you will have your answer.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[una_fides]

Let me share a little of my experience. I grew up in charismatic pentacostal and episcopalean churches. I still remember when I first spoke in tongues. 1st grade right after our teacher taught us how. I continued to “speak in tongues” regularly up until about 9th grade (meaning I uttered incomprehensible words and let my emotions run with it). I at that time honestly believed that I was “experiencing God” since I felt emotions that seemed to verify that. The problem was that I was relying on emotions rather than being first grounded in God’s truth. I later came to realize that these experiences were not “supernatural gifts” since they did not accomplish anything more than making me feel warm and fuzzy, which any other religion can do for someone. (Drugs like extacy can produce far greater emotional sensations, but just because someone feels something doesn’t make what they are doing meaningful or real outside of their own relativistic perceptions).

I am not saying that people do not get more serious about God through these many times intense emotional experiences. What I am saying is that this movement did not originate by the Holy Spirit, who leads all souls to the Catholic Church. This movement is a Protestant movement in its origin and practice. Moreover, the movement leads many souls away from the Catholic Church. My parents were two prime examples. They based their faith on their feelings and as a result ended up outside the Church and in a pentacostal “spirit-filled” church. Sure it made them feel good, but it’s not about us; it’s about God and pleasing Him and offering up to Him worship that He approves and originates. (Luckily, in their case, I basically read and prayed my way into the Catholic Church, and God used me to share with them the fullness of His truth, and by his grace, they accepted and are now Catholic.)

Again, I am not questioning the sincerity of the individuals involved in this movement. I am however questioning its “divine origin” and am making the case that if we really want to please God and experience Him more fully, then we should do so how the saints have been doing for 2000 years. If it was good enough for every single saint that lived before the 1900s, then it’s good enough for me.

God bless you on your journey to Him and above all pray for humility and discernment as you seek to know him and the fullness of his truth.

 

[Dr_M]

charismatic heresy

UNMASKING THE CHARISMATIC HERESY "For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths" 2 Timothy 4:3-4 - "False messiahs and...

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com

go there, that basically destroys the Charismatic movement.

My own 2 cents: It’s not of God, for the simple fact that there’s a Christian Relativism that I’ve sensed from being at many Charismatic groups.

 

[una_fides]

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com

go there, that basically destroys the Charismatic movement.

My own 2 cents: It’s not of God, for the simple fact that there’s a Christian Relativism that I’ve sensed from being at many Charismatic groups.

I agree and like the site too. Here’s the link in easily clickable format for those who do not want to have to copy and paste: charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/

God bless!

 

[DebChris]

Hi Deacon Ed!

You know, I’ve seen some folks really come alive in their Catholicism after attending charismatic seminars. But I guess I’m with some of the other posters here as I don’t know of any systematic guide to the charismatic practice. A few weeks ago it broke my heart when I head of a friend of mine who was praying over another friend of mine for healing and was apparently distressed when the healing didn’t happen. I’ve also been around priests who say that if they pray over you, and you’re not healed, then you have some other “blockage” or “problem” that must be handled first.
I almost walked out of the Mass where I heard that one. I don’t know what insulted me more, the insinuation that the sufferer wasn’t doing enough, or the implication that the Holy Spirit wasn’t able to perform the requested healing (since when are there miracles that God CAN:T perform?).
It sounds alot like there’s “responsible” or “conforming” charismatics and then there’s other, less “responsible” practices that don’t seem to conform to the rest of the Church’s teachings.
How do you tell the difference? How does one police this sort of thing? Is there a repository of charismatic “practices” that one can then measure a group’s activity by?

Really, I don’t mean to be argumentative. I have just seen this sort of thing and it seems to cause a great deal of divisivness in the Body of Christ, which can’t be the intention of the Spirit.

Most humbly…

I hope I can help a little here. Yes, it is disconcerting when healing is not miraculously instantateous. Fr. D’Orio (spelling?) had a healing ministry. When he was asked why he couldn’t heal everybody who came to him, he replied, “that God’s way to keep me humble.” It is God who heals, not man.
I was also taught that sometimes inner healing needs to take place before the actual physical healing is realized. There was a priest over whom we prayed and the insight that members of the prayer group received was “convalescence.” Think about an injury that has healed and yet the person needs physical therapy to strengthen the muscles, for the healing to complete its process. Sometimes we need to rest even after a virus has run its course.
I remember reading an article in New Covenant** magazine. A woman wrote about her frustration because despite everybody’s prayers, she remained unhealed. One day she heard “Worship me.” She quit praying for healing and simply concentrated on worshipping God. After a year of simply worshipping God, she was healed…
God can definitely heal immediately. Sometimes there is something that God wants a particular person to learn. Even before I became part of the Renewal, there were times when I would sustain an athletic injury. The injury would help me develop empathy for those whose injuries were much worse than mine.
Jesus healed in response to faith or to bring a person to faith. Lack of healing in no way means that the person who prays or who is prayed over lacks faith.

 

[palmas85]

I’m new here, very new to the forums, but not new in the Catholic Charismatic Movement. I’ve been involved since the 70’s and it enriched my Catholic Faith - My husband and I do pray in tongues, it’s letting the Holy Spirit pray thru you. It’s nothing to be ashamed of or afraid of. I prayed for this gift and I received it.
My very first Catholic Charismatic Conference in 1975, I’ll never forget! Fr. Michael Scanlon was a speaker, he was the President of the Franciscan University at Steubinville, Ohio. My two Crosier uncles, and two Benedictine aunts were there, and my two cousins that are priests, along with my Franciscan blood sister, and other married sisters! What a wonderful experience! We went to a lot more Conferences and went to a Sunday night Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting - and the one who started that prayer meeting was my very own favorite teacher from High School, a Benedictine nun.
My cousin says Charismatic Masses every Tuesday night in his Parish. My goodness! How beautiful and moving!

My Spiriitual Director is a Catholic Charismatic priest!

You guys really are special aren’t you? I never realized just how unique and above all of the rest of us you guys are. Wow!!!

Think of the enormity of it all, Its not you praying in tongues. It’s, the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Holy Trinity using you as an instrument to pray through.

I never knew that.