Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[una_fides]

Apparently the Holy Spirit is leading some folks AWAY from the One True Church.

Changing Faiths: Latinos and the Transformation of American Religion pewforum.org/surveys/hispanic/

Religious expressions associated with the pentecostal and charismatic movements are a key attribute of worship for Hispanics in all the major religious traditions – far more so than among non-Latinos. Moreover, the growth of the Hispanic population is leading to the emergence of Latino-oriented churches across the country

Most significantly given their numbers, more than half of Hispanic Catholics identify themselves as charismatics, compared with only an eighth of non-Hispanic Catholics. While remaining committed to the church and its traditional teachings, many of these Latino Catholics say they have witnessed or experienced occurrences typical of spirit-filled or renewalist movements, including divine healing and **direct revelations from God. **Even many Latino Catholics who do not identify themselves as renewalists appear deeply influenced by spirit-filled forms of Christianity

The study also shows that many of those who are joining evangelical churches are Catholic converts. The desire for a more direct, personal experience of God emerges as by far the most potent motive for these conversions. Although these converts express some dissatisfaction with the lack of excitement in a typical Catholic Mass, negative views of Catholicism do not appear to be a major reason for their conversion

Nearly one-fifth (18%) of all Latinos say they have either converted from one religion to another or to no religion at all. Conversions are a key ingredient in the development of evangelicalism among Hispanics. Half of Hispanic evangelicals (51%) are converts, and more than four-fifths of them (43% of Hispanic evangelicals overall) are former Catholics"

Let me begin by saying that it is impossible that the Spirit of Truth could be leading anyone away from the fullness of Truth, which is only in the Catholic Church.

Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos explains how one will inevitably become Catholic:
“We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity.” papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM
Thus, if the first pentacostal protestants were truly open to the Holy Spirit, then they would have become Catholic. But they didn’t!

How could the Holy Spirit work to produce such supernatural signs of approval outside of His own Church, which He infallibly has repeatedly stated throughout history that outside of her there is no salvation?

I’m sure we all agree that supernatural extraordinary gifts of the Spirit are a validation of the message that a group is preaching, since the Holy Spirit used such signs in the first century Church in order to prove to non-believers that the apostles’ teachings were true. How then could these supernatural gifts have originated from those teaching heresies, many of which lead souls to hell, such as the common Protestant teaching of justification by faith alone. They teach no matter how many grievous sins one commits, one need not repent but only have faith in God, who will forgive all because of faith alone. As the Catholic Church has repeatedly taught, these teachings lead souls to hell. How then could the Holy Spirit use supernatural proofs to validate such messages?

To claim that the charismatic renewal is valid in the Catholic Church is to also believe that it was valid in the groups from which it originated–> Protestants who went to their graves rejecting the authority of the Catholic Church.

 

[una_fides]

una fides–Your post #718 seems less confrontational than earlier posts. Your questions cannot all be answered at one time.

I’m happy for any that could be suitably answered.

It will take a while to search the scriptures for some of the points I had wanted to make earlier.

While Scripture is a very important part of the Church and her Tradition, we must keep in mind that as the Catechism says our faith is not one “of the book.” We rely on sola Verbum, only the Word of God, both the written and oral Tradition. Thus, in order to assure we are interpreting the Scriptures correctly it is often best to go to the early Church Fathers and see how they understood them. I challenge you or any other charismatic who wishes to worship God in spirit and in truth to find teachings from the early Church Fathers on speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, or even a special baptism of the Holy Spirit, which brings on these gifts. How could such important teachings been lost immediately after the death of the apostles? Simple. They were never taught in the first place; otherwise, we would have some record of them in the history of the Church other than individual interpretation of Scriptures divorced from Tradition that originated among Protestants who only follow sola Scriptura in the first place.

 

[una_fides]

The Apostles also confronted Jesus when somebody “not of their party” began preaching. Jesus replied, “He who is not against us is for us.”

Matthew 12:30 & Luke 11:23: He that is not with me, is against me; and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.
Jesus speaking to those with apostolic authority in Luke 10:16: He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
We must first interpret Scripture with Scripture and with the Tradition of the Church before we come to conclusions on particular verses. Protestants are famous for interpreting Scripture to support their preconceived notions. For this reason there are over 20-30,000 different Protestant denominations.

When I read the Little Flowers of St. Francis**, there were stories of the friars appearing as dead for several days. I have never seen or experienced it lasting longer than minutes. St. Ignatius was arrested because “women fainted” as he walked by.

I’m sorry, but I don’t see these as any proof of the charismatic teaching of being slain in the Spirit. Apart from some type of theological explanation of any theologian prior to the protestant movement, these occurrences remain just random fainting. Did the Holy Spirit reveal to anyone in that time that those who appeared dead were slain in the Spirit? Or is there any reason for us to believe that the women fainted as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit? I mean one could just as easily make an argument that those women were possessed by demons, and they fainted as a result.

If you choose to attend a Charismatic Mass, will somehow lie outside the normal rubrics of the Roman rite…

I have attended and heard others described and the vast majority of them appear to have deviations and abuses from the proscribed rite. Here are some common liturgical abuses that many Catholics have become almost accustomed to and that many do not even know are abuses!: catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901fea1.asp
These and many others are especially present in charismatic masses especially #'s 1, 2, 8, & 9 in the list on the site: 1) Disregarding the prescribed text of the Order of Mass, 2) Interrupting the Mass, 8) Holding hands during the Our Father, and 9) Performing liturgical dance.

Lord, send us good and holy priests that will follow You and the authority of Your Church, which you have purchased by Your Precious Blood. Amen.

 

[palmas85]

The example of the reformation was simply to show that those who broke off were not a true reflection of what was Catholic. Just as those Charismatics who broke off did not reflect the true meaning of the Charismatic renewal.

None of the popes supported Arianism. Popes since Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI support the charismatic renewal. If it is good enough for them, its good enough for me.

Just as a particular religious vocation, devotion or way of life is not for everyone so too with the renewal. You may choose to be part or not to be part. This is no reflection on one’s spirituality whatsoever. Thats all I am saying. Nothing implied.

With the history of the saints produced by the Church, nothing could be further from the truth.

No one ever said the Holy Spirit left us nor was it implied.

And this is the central focus of the Charismatic renewal

The only reason for a greater experience with the mass is the renewed focus on the Eucharist.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

Arianism infected around 3/4ths of the Church. That is a sizeable amount. Apparently whether or not the Popes endorsed it or not didn’t made much difference. Permitting these gatherings is far from a ringing endorsement and despite what the proponents will say none of the Popes mentioned has ever been involved with the movement, which I think says a lot more than permitting it.

No saints that I am aware of exhibited charismatic manifestations in the context that they are performed today. Not one which I find pretty striking.

It is most certainly implied that the Holy Spirit left the Church. If He did not, why was it necessary for the founders of the movement to step outside of the Chucrh to find Him and reclaim these gifts so long neglected?. By your own definition then, if He never left, whatever they found in the protestant community probably wasn’t the Holy Spirit, but most likely something else entirely. I think it very good to remember that most protestants who fall into the charismatic category hate and revile the Catholic Church and believe it sends its members straight to hell…

I doubt that the Eucharist is the center of the charismatic experience even though in writing you guys say it is. No what seems to be central in charismatic circles seems to be the

experience itself of having the Holy Spirit, how was it worded, pray though you? having your own personal and private prayer language, prophysyzing without much in the way of interpretation, healings healings and more healings and of course being slain in the spirit, all seem to take center stage at these gatherings. Something as mundane as the Euchasistic Sacrifice pales in comparison to the physical manifestations that the movement is so enamored with.

Your last statement makes no sense at all. What was so lacking in the Mass that it required the charismatics to renew it? I wasn’t aware that the Mass needed something to improve the experience…

You are right about one thing though, it most certainly isn’t for everyone. And to be honest, a lot was and is implied.

 

[DebChris]

I’m happy for any that could be suitably answered.

While Scripture is a very important part of the Church and her Tradition, we must keep in mind that as the Catechism says our faith is not one “of the book.” We rely on sola Verbum, only the Word of God, both the written and oral Tradition. Thus, in order to assure we are interpreting the Scriptures correctly it is often best to go to the early Church Fathers and see how they understood them. I challenge you or any other charismatic who wishes to worship God in spirit and in truth to find teachings from the early Church Fathers on speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, or even a special baptism of the Holy Spirit, which brings on these gifts. How could such important teachings been lost immediately after the death of the apostles? Simple. They were never taught in the first place; otherwise, we would have some record of them in the history of the Church other than individual interpretation of Scriptures divorced from Tradition that originated among Protestants who only follow sola Scriptura in the first place.

As has been stated several times throughout this thread, the focus of the Charismatic Renewal is more on an authentic relationship with Jesus Christ than on the gifts themselves. I have posted what scripture says as well as what the Magisterium (both the CCC and the United States Cathecism written by the bishops) have to say.
I believe in a Living God who can do whatever He wants. It is true that Hispanics may be leaving the Church to attend Pentecostal Denominations. It was also reported in that article that they miss the devotions and teachings of the Catholic Church. I had alraady read the original article. Would they have left the Catholic Church if they had known that these gifts were available within the True Church? Cursillo started in Spain because of a lack of cathechesis. How well were the Hispanics who left the Church cathechized? These are questions for which we do not have the answers.
None of us on this thread are theologians. We can only speak from our own personal experiences, of the graces that we have received. The Charismatic Renewal does not teach any new doctrines. It does not deny either the divinity or humanity of Jesus Christ.
I have been to Assembly of God meetings in the past where they prayed for the conversion of Catholics. They were surprised when they learned from me that Catholics believe in the Risen Lord. God can do whatever He wills in heaven and on earth.
What I ask of those on thread is to be open to what our gracious God may have to offer you.
If you do get a chance, enjoy reading The Flowers of St. Francis**

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I think any support they have given is likely directed towards the results more than towards the doctrines that are being promulgated that cannot be found practiced through the history of the Church. Certainly, to the extent that the charismatic movement makes people interested in God and his truth, then that is a good thing. However, to the extent that it replaces the foundation of truth with experience and any new doctrines, then that can be nothing but disastrous in regards to holding to the truth.

Here is your mistake. The charismatic renewal does NOT replace any foundational truths in the Church nor any doctrine. The only doctrine it has is the doctrine held, believed and taught by the Catholic Church. In so far as speaking in tongues, I will give the quotations from scripture followed by the **“New Jerome Biblical Commentary” ** If this does not answer your questions, then I cannot think of any other answer to give you.

Romans 8:26-27 says,*** “The Spirit too helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in speech. He who searches hearts knows what the Spirit means, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints as God himself wills.”***

The Jerome Commentary on on these two verses on page 855 says ***"(The Spirit too helps us in our weakness) The third testimony to the new life and glorious destiny of Christians. Human aspirations risk being inefficacious because of the natural weakness of the flesh, but the Spirit adds its intercessions trancending such weakness, intercedes over and above. The result is that the Christian utters what would otherwise be ineffable; to pray “Abba Father” , the Spirit must dynamically assist the Christian. The Christian who so prays is aware that the Spirit manifests its presence in him or her. (Who searches hearts - an Old Testament phrase for God) Only God himself comprehends the language and the mind of the Spirit and recognizes such Spirit assisted prayer according to God’s will. It was part of his plan of salvation that the Spirit should play such a dynamic role in the aspirations and prayers of Christians."

---

Lastly, since you seem to be a strong promoter of the movement, I am interested in your answer to some of the questions I posed earlier. Thanks.

I think that the above two references adequately answers most of your questions. As for the last three popes, their own retreat master, Father Cantelemessa,(sp) ;has addressed the world leaders of the charismatic renewal several times at meetings and conferences in Rome at Castel Gondolfo. I know this personally (I have not been to them) as my sister is the Chairman of the National Steering Committee for the Charismatic Renewal here in the United States. She has held this position going on seven years and has been to meetings, conferences etc in many different countries. Those meetings in Rome have been held with knowledge and guidance of the Vatican.

Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[stmaria]

=una fides;3653815]Thus, if the first pentacostal protestants were truly open to the Holy Spirit, then they would have become Catholic. But they didn’t!

How could the Holy Spirit work to produce such supernatural signs of approval outside of His own Church, which He infallibly has repeatedly stated throughout history that outside of her there is no salvation?

I wonder why the Holy Spirit is leading these Hispanic Charismatics away from HIS Church, unless it isn’t the Holy Spirit speaking to them. After all they are leaving because the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass “isn’t lively” enough for them.

 

[DebChris]

The Catholic Charismatic Center recommends the following book tracing the experience and reality of being Baptized in the Spirit in the early Church fathers and throughout history.
Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the first eight centuries** written by Fr. McDonnell, OSB and Fr. Montague, SM
Fr. McDonnell reviews 11 post-biblical texts while Fr. Mantague looks at the scriptural passages.

 

[una_fides]

I have posted what scripture says as well as what the Magisterium (both the CCC and the United States Cathecism written by the bishops) have to say.
I believe in a Living God who can do whatever He wants.

I have studied the Scriptures for years as have many Protestants. However, citing Scriptures in support of a teaching, as I demonstrated in my last post, does not prove anything beyond one’s own private interpretation. And St. Peter even tells us in Scripture itself that there is no prophecy in Scripture that is open for private interpretation. We must follow Scripture in light of the Tradition of the Church.

From what I’ve read in the CCC on the matter, they are supporting different charisms that all of us have, such as teaching, preaching, tending to the sick, etc. These gifts do not have to include supernatural and extraordinary gifts that have not been practiced since the days of the apostles and are most often practiced today completely differently than how they were 2000 years ago.

It is true that Hispanics may be leaving the Church to attend Pentecostal Denominations. It was also reported in that article that they miss the devotions and teachings of the Catholic Church. I had alraady read the original article. Would they have left the Catholic Church if they had known that these gifts were available within the True Church? Cursillo started in Spain because of a lack of cathechesis. How well were the Hispanics who left the Church cathechized? These are questions for which we do not have the answers.

Please respond to the quote I cited from Pope Pius XI when he says that if they humbly beg light from heaven, then there is NO DOUBT that they will enter the Catholic Church or in these cases not leave. If they are truly being led by the Spirit, then they would never leave the Church. These gifts are feeling based and not based in truth, which is why they originated in Protestantism and not within the true Church of Christ.

None of us on this thread are theologians. We can only speak from our own personal experiences, of the graces that we have received. The Charismatic Renewal does not teach any new doctrines. It does not deny either the divinity or humanity of Jesus Christ. I have been to Assembly of God meetings in the past where they prayed for the conversion of Catholics. They were surprised when they learned from me that Catholics believe in the Risen Lord. God can do whatever He wills in heaven and on earth.

It depends on your definition of theologian. We are all called to study and learn and know about our Catholic faith. We cannot base our faith on feelings but our feelings must come as a result of what we know from our faith. Our faith must first be properly formed from studying Church teaching. People in every religion have religious experiences, and even pagans practicing temple prostitution could claim the same. However, experiences do not validate faith. We must first study what God has revealed by means of the Church and then go from there. Otherwise we are leaving ourselves open to be deceived by our feelings. What happens if one day you feel like being Catholic and the next day you stop? You then loose your faith? No, your faith must be based on God’s revelation and trusting in God who reveals himself objectively through revelation and authority not through subjective emotions, which even the demons can influence.

What I ask of those on thread is to be open to what our gracious God may have to offer you.

Anyone who is truly open to God’s gifts and graces will inevitably be joining or staying within the Catholic Church. Supernatural gifts of the Spirit profit one nothing if he loose his own soul, and often times, it appears, that these gifts are leading people in that direction.

 

[DustinsDad]

I wonder why the Holy Spirit is leading these Hispanic Charismatics away from HIS Church, unless it isn’t the Holy Spirit speaking to them. After all they are leaving because the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass “isn’t lively” enough for them.

This is certainly a valid question. I’ve been looking more and more at the decrees of the First Vatican Council - especially the decrees of Faith. If this movement leads folks away from the Church, or to indifference toward the Church - then it does throw the kind of faith being cultivated therein up for closer scrutiny.

From the infallible and explicit words of the First Vatican Council, we see it clarified that the Holy Spirit gives to all the ability to accept the free gift of faith, that authentic faith which we accept all that Christ and His Church proposes as Truth. This is the faith - salvific faith - without which it is impossible to please God.

Yet, if in all this charismatic phenomena, we see a general lack of this sort of faith, a moving away from the Church, a creeping religious indifference setting in among the faithful…well. It’s troubling to say the least.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[una_fides]

Here is your mistake. The charismatic renewal does NOT replace any foundational truths in the Church nor any doctrine. The only doctrine it has is the doctrine held, believed and taught by the Catholic Church. In so far as speaking in tongues, I will give the quotations from scripture followed by the **“New Jerome Biblical Commentary” ** If this does not answer your questions, then I cannot think of any other answer to give you.

Romans 8:26-27 says,*** “The Spirit too helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in speech. He who searches hearts knows what the Spirit means, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints as God himself wills.”***

The Jerome Commentary on on these two verses on page 855 says ***"(The Spirit too helps us in our weakness) The third testimony to the new life and glorious destiny of Christians. Human aspirations risk being inefficacious because of the natural weakness of the flesh, but the Spirit adds its intercessions trancending such weakness, intercedes over and above. The result is that the Christian utters what would otherwise be ineffable; to pray “Abba Father” , the Spirit must dynamically assist the Christian. The Christian who so prays is aware that the Spirit manifests its presence in him or her. (Who searches hearts - an Old Testament phrase for God) Only God himself comprehends the language and the mind of the Spirit and recognizes such Spirit assisted prayer according to God’s will. It was part of his plan of salvation that the Spirit should play such a dynamic role in the aspirations and prayers of Christians."

---

I am quite familiar with that passage, and unfortunately, it only supports the charismatic position of speaking in incomprehensible languages if one reads his own interpretation into the passage. First, do we have any, even one, early Church Father that you can cite who supports such an interpretation of this verse, as they wrote volumes of commentary on the Scriptures? Second, the passage itself does not validate the pentacostal interpretation, originally cited by Protestants in defense of their practices, which in some instances has included screaming, shouting, and even barking like animals. It says “groanings that cannot** be expressed by speech.”** It appears obvious to me that those who cite this verse in defense are trying to say that these groanings can be uttered, when the text says they CANNOT. Finally, your commentary (which is not binding to any degree) does not validate nor does it even mention or hint at speaking in tongues. It does claim that these unutterable groanings somehow manifest themselves into speaking comprehensable words such as “Abba Father.”
I’m afraid that you will need more to support your position than a stretched meaning of one verse of Scripture.

I think that the above two references adequately answers most of your questions.

Actually, they only attempt to answer one of my eight numbered questions. See my post #718. Do you have any other proof or perhaps a more firm interpretation of this passage? Do you have at least one early Church Father you can cite who even hints at such practices taking place after the death of the last apostle?

 

[DebChris]

This is certainly a valid question. I’ve been looking more and more at the decrees of the First Vatican Council - especially the decrees of Faith. If this movement leads folks away from the Church, or to indifference toward the Church - then it does throw the kind of faith being cultivated therein up for closer scrutiny.

From the infallible and explicit words of the First Vatican Council, we see it clarified that the Holy Spirit gives to all the ability to accept the free gift of faith, that authentic faith which we accept all that Christ and His Church proposes as Truth. This is the faith - salvific faith - without which it is impossible to please God.

Yet, if in all this charismatic phenomena, we see a general lack of this sort of faith, a moving away from the Church, a creeping religious indifference setting in among the faithful…well. It’s troubling to say the least.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Read my earlier post where I question whether or not those who leave the Church have been properly catechecized. There are many who are baptized but learn little about their faith. This was the concern of laymen in Spain who started Cursillo (Little Course in Christianity).
For whatever reason, they are seeing the Holy Spirit at work in Pentecostal churches, unaware that the same Holy Spirit works within the hearts of the faithful who stay within the Church.
As mentioned in StMarie’s post they miss the devotions and teachings of the Catholic Church. This loss will bring them back, especially if they discover the Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church. The Eucharist will draw them.
See what the US Bishops have to say about the various movements of the Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church. These various movements, including Cursillo and the Charismatic Renewal are mentioned several times within the United States Catechism of the Catholic Church. The references have already been posted.

 

[DebChris]

I Actually, they only attempt to answer one of my eight numbered questions. See my post #718. Do you have any other proof or perhaps a more firm interpretation of this passage? Do you have at least one early Church Father you can cite who even hints at such practices taking place after the death of the last apostle?

See post #729

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I doubt that the Eucharist is the center of the charismatic experience even though in writing you guys say it is.

How in the world can you make this kind of judgment about people whom you do not even know. I for one will tell you, do not ever dare to tell me that the Eucharist is not the center of my life. You are way out of bounds here. For your next quote, I will give it and then the answer. Read it well and be educated.

No what seems to be central in charismatic circles seems to be the experience itself of having the Holy Spirit, how was it worded, pray though you? having your own personal and private prayer language,

In so far as speaking in tongues, I will give the quotations from scripture followed by the **“New Jerome Biblical Commentary” **

Romans 8:26-27 says,*** “The Spirit too helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in speech. He who searches hearts knows what the Spirit means, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints as God himself wills.”***

The Jerome Commentary on on these two verses on page 855 says ***"(The Spirit too helps us in our weakness) The third testimony to the new life and glorious destiny of Christians. Human aspirations risk being inefficacious because of the natural weakness of the flesh, but the Spirit adds its intercessions transcending such weakness, intercedes over and above. The result is that the Christian utters what would otherwise be ineffable; to pray “Abba Father” , the Spirit must dynamically assist the Christian. The Christian who so prays is aware that the Spirit manifests its presence in him or her. (Who searches hearts - an Old Testament phrase for God) Only God himself comprehends the language and the mind of the Spirit and recognizes such Spirit assisted prayer according to God’s will. It was part of his plan of salvation that the Spirit should play such a dynamic role in the aspirations and prayers of Christians."

---

If you have a problem with this, take it up with St Jerome. I hope you are familiar with this biblical commentary. If you are not get one and do a little reading and research before you go off the deep end again.

Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[una_fides]

See post #729

Saw your post already. Have you read the book?

I am curious as to whether you already researched the charismatic faith in depth before “experiencing it.” I know in almost all cases it begins by seeing others perform these “gifts” and then imitation. If you read my earlier post, that’s what I did in first grade after our protestant teacher taught us how.

 

[una_fides]

Read my earlier post where I question whether or not those who leave the Church have been properly catechecized. The references have already been posted.

I think he should also read post #730, which contains the refutation of the same post you are recommending.

 

[una_fides]

There are many who are baptized but learn little about their faith. … The Eucharist will draw them.

Right before I converted to Catholicism, several years ago, my brother wanted me to join him in going to a Protestant service up the street from my house. At some point in his over an hour long sermon, the charistmatic preacher was explaining a missionary trip in which he went to South America and was practicing his “gifts of the spirit.” He explained how he encountered Catholics, and he described them as participating in witchcraft!. Can you believe it? A man who practiced charistmaticism actually equated the only Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church with witchcraft!!

In reality, most pentacostal protestants are antagonistic towards the Catholic Church and are often strongly opposed to her and to her God’ given authority. It was among these same types of people, working against the Catholic Church, that the Holy Spirit allegedly began working through these extraordinary gifts. Furthermore, the purpose of these gifts are a sign that the message being communicated is valid. Please if you are going to answer at least one of my questions, answer this one: How could the Holy Spirit put His stamp of approval on a message that was anti-Catholic?

 

[DebChris]

Saw your post already. Have you read the book?

I am curious as to whether you already researched the charismatic faith in depth before “experiencing it.” I know in almost all cases it begins by seeing others perform these “gifts” and then imitation. If you read my earlier post, that’s what I did in first grade after our protestant teacher taught us how.

If you look at one of my earliest posts on this thread, you will find how I was drawn to the Charismatic Renewal, not of my own power, during a time of personal crisis. At the time, I had not even heard the term Charismatic Renewal.

I also posted about an invitation I had received several months earlier to visit a Pentecostal Holiness church. I was not impressed. The person who had invited me refused my return invitation to attend a Catholic Mass. I know about the antagonism of many against the Catholic Church, based on hearsay and falsehoods. I have been able to refute many of these falsehoods.

My next post is a collection of excerpts copied and pasted from Grace for a New Springtime**, a statement from the United States Conference of Bishops on the Charismatic Renewal. It was made on the 30th anniversary of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and the 100th anniversary of Pope Leo’s encyclical on the Holy Spirit, Divinum Ilud**.It may answer a few more of your questions.

 

[DebChris]

In its thirty years of existence, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has brought personal spiritual renewal to the lives of millions of priests, deacons, religious, and lay Catholics. It has called countless alienated Catholics to reconciliation with the Lord and with the Church. It has deepened a love for Jesus and the Church among young people as well as so many others, including the unchurched.
Impact of the Renewal on the
Broader Church
The impact of the Charismatic Renewal on the broader Church has been significant. The Renewal has nourished the call of all to holiness as a gift from the Spirit and helped the Church come to a greater awareness and expectancy of the Holy Spirit and the charismatic gifts of the Spirit. The Charismatic Renewal has led the people of God in a revival of the ministry of healing, encouraging them – laity and clergy alike – to pray for the sick with faith and expectancy.
It has renewed the appreciation for the role of praise in individual and communal prayer and enriched the Church with many gifted musicians, music ministries, and song writers. The Renewal has taught a commitment to the Pope, the Bishops, and to orthodox teaching. Vocations to priesthood, diaconate, and religious life have been fostered. It has called forth the gifts of the laity who are today serving in a variety of ecclesial lay ministries; e.g., in the liturgy, religious education, and youth ministry, and ministries for the transformation of the world.
Mary
Authentic Marian devotion and imitation is a welcome and growing dimension of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the United States. Mary, Mother of the Church, who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit “when the fullness of time had come” (Gal 4:4), will “lead the men and women of the new millennium toward the One who is `the true light that enlightens every man’ (Jn. 1:9).” (Tertio, 59) It is thus with great anticipation that we find within the Renewal this joyful awareness of the relationship of Mary and the Holy Spirit.

We encourage the whole Church to look into and embrace baptism in the Holy Spirit “as the power of personal and communal transformation with all the graces and charisms needed for the upbuilding of the Church and for our mission in the world.” (Fanning the Flame, p. 27)

In Tertio Millennio Adveniente, Pope John Paul II states that this “new springtime of Christian life will be revealed by the Great Jubilee if Christians are docile to the action of the Holy Spirit” (#18), and he exhorts his “venerable brothers in the episcopate and the ecclesial communities entrusted” to us to open our “hearts to the promptings of the Spirit” (#59).

 

[una_fides]

DebChris, First, did you type this out or is this text available online? if it is, please provide the link.

Assuming that the citation is legitimate and properly understood contextually, basically in order to try to answer my theological questions, you have provided me with the opinion of bishops who do not provide any theological proofs or citations of validity but instead who are basically taking an optimistic perspective and are pointing out whatever good then can in the movement to an audience of its adherents. I would be interested to hear what they would say about the movement to an audience more in tune with the traditional Catholic perspective, namely that God does not validate the message of heretics who oppose his Church and his truth.
If you are going to convince me of anything, you will need to do so by actually refuting my arguments. Not by citing opinions of bishops. We are not obliged to believe what bishops believe especially when we have legitimate reasons to do so from previous infallible Church teachings. Remember that there was a time in Church history when the majority of bishops actually believed in and practiced and promoted a denial that Jesus Christ was God. And yes, even popes are not infallible in their every day opinions. And papal statement could still be interpreted as correct to the extent that they point out the good things that the charismatic movement has produced. Yes, there has been in some people an increased interest in religious matters as a result. I am not arguing against an increased interest in God or religion. I am rather wishing to discuss and to discern the truth of the movement’s claims especially regarding the actual manifestation of these gifts and the origin of the movement. Again, I would like you and others on this forum who support the movement to address the specific questions I have raised rather than point to bishops who seem to think that the movement produces good things. To seek the truth is all I ask of you and myself; nothing more or less.