Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[una_fides]

In Tertio Millennio Adveniente, Pope John Paul II states that this “new springtime of Christian life will be revealed by the Great Jubilee if Christians are docile to the action of the Holy Spirit” (#18), and he exhorts his “venerable brothers in the episcopate and the ecclesial communities entrusted” to us to open our “hearts to the promptings of the Spirit” (#59).

Nothing in this statement demonstrates support of the specific practices of the charismatic movement regarding speaking in tongues, being “slain in the spirit,” or other protestant charismatic phenomena. Certainly we should be open to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, which leads all souls to the Catholic Church. When we pass someone on the street that needs help, we should be paying attention to that quiet voice within us that tells us to reach out of ourselves and help those around us. Feed the hungry. Tend to the sick. Clothe the naked. Give drink to the thirsty. Gifts of the Spirit such as 1) wisdom, 2) knowledge, 3) council, 4) fortitude, 5) understanding, 6) piety, and 7) fear of the Lord. These are the gifts that Holy Mother the Church teaches that we receive at confirmation.

 

[una_fides]

Another question just came to me, if Christ initiated “baptism of the Holy Spirit” as he did the other seven sacraments, then why did this teaching cease to be taught throughout Church history?
This whole scenario seems similar to the claims of the reformation. The “reformers” claimed that they discovered what the Church had lost over its history. They claimed to be interpreting Scripture correctly and neglected the teachings of the early Church Fathers or at least did their best to cite a few quotations from them in attempt to support their cause. Then stemming from that same tradition of separation and opposition to the Church and her teachings, those relying on sola Scriptura then suddenly discover what the Church had lost after the death of the apostles. Then one of these “spirit led” protestants laid hands on a Catholic priest and viola, the Church received supernatural grace from the hands of heretics. Never in the history of the Church or God’s dealings with His people has this happened.
The fact that this movement has developed does not prove its veracity any more than the spreading of any other religion or religious movement. Muslims claim that their message is correct because of the spread of their movement. Are they correct? Is Jesus really just a man and not God as they claim since they have expanded rapidly and many have converted to their message? The fact that people have embraced the pentacostal movement at large because it focuses on emotions and was not and is not grounded in truth should be enough cause in and of itself for us to avoid it.

 

[palmas85]

How in the world can you make this kind of judgment about people whom you do not even know. I for one will tell you, do not ever dare to tell me that the Eucharist is not the center of my life. You are way out of bounds here. For your next quote, I will give it and then the answer. Read it well and be educated.

If you have a problem with this, take it up with St Jerome. I hope you are familiar with this biblical commentary. If you are not get one and do a little reading and research before you go off the deep end again.

Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

Quite a deflection there Deacon. Good job, no great job actually. Yes, I am well aware of the commentary and I am well aware of the Charismatic gifts as stated in scripture.I accept them in their entirity and believe deeply that those gifts can be manifested at the pleasure of the Holy Spirit. But I see no evidence at all that Charismatics today equal or even come close to what was done then.

I don’t recall any of the Church Fathers going outside of the Church and asking those who reviled the Church to lay hands upon them and thus expose them to the Holy Spirit, as happened at the beginning of the movement…

I don’t recall any of the Church Fathers or any of the Saints for that matter, requesting baptism of the Holy Spirit in a separate apparently more meaningful ceremony, to unlock the gifts or bring them to life . Nope I must have missed that completely.

In fact Deacon, I don’t recall hearing about a Charismatic movement at all within the Church ever until after Vatican II and close association with those who deny the truth of the Holy Mother Church and insist that it, the Church sends most of its members to Hell through the teaching of a false gospel…

Quoting scripture till you’re blue in the face to prove or disprove a point, is an old protestant trick. They dreamed it up and they perfected it. It really doesn’t work though except with people who haven’t read scripture and other patristic works. They can be easily mislead and tripped up by this method. people who are knowledgeable about Scripture, history and the other patristic works, will seldom if ever be tricked by smooth taking verse quoting salesmen of a particular line. And thats really all they are, salesman.

As far as the Charismatics making the Eucharist the center of the mass, when do they do actually do that? After everyone is tired from being slain in the spirit, I’d actually like a scriptural reference for that one Deacon, or from propheysizing or from the extended private prayer in a language that only the one praying even understands? Or maybe after fifty of sixty dubious sicknesses have been healed perhaps. Of course, silly me, I thoughthe Eucharist was the center of the mass for all, not just the charismatics. Whatever did we do in the barren dreary pre charismatic days? How did we ever make it?

And no, Deacon, as I said, I have never doubted the Holy Spirit, or felt that he was neglected as many charismatics do. In fact I think the Holy Spirit does what he does and chooses who He wants regardless as to what we as humans want. You can get as huffy and chesty as you want. What happened in the early Church and now, are two distinct different things no matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise. To even try to compare the charismatic movement to the apostles and what happened to them, I think, verges on blasphemy, to tell you the truth.

Tell you what Deacon, since you like throwing out old texts, why don’t you read up on Montanus? In fact since you like Jerome, read what he had to say about your charismatic ancestors, the followers of Montanus. . Montanus’ charismatic group was full of signs and wonders and healings and ecstatic utterances and everything else that charismatics today claim and do as their own, Why they even claimed private prayer languages and the Holy Spirit using them as instruments of His divine will. In fact thy did just about everything charismatics today do except getting slain in the spirit . Even old Montanus didn’t go that far.

And just in case you don’t know, , Jerome took them, the Montanists, to task, saw through their nonsense and totally put them in their place.

Oh and Deacon just for the record, How do you know that I don’t know , as you inferred? That actually seems quite presumptuous.

 

[DebChris]

Grace for the New Springtime © 1997, the United States Catholic Conference, Inc.,
Reprinted with permission. All rights reserved.
www.garg.com/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html

www.iamonetruth.com/charismatic.htm

 

[palmas85]

Grace for the New Springtime © 1997, the United States Catholic Conference, Inc.,
Reprinted with permission. All rights reserved.
www.garg.com/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html

www.iamonetruth.com/charismatic.htm

I do suppose that there was a reason for posting this document. At least I hope there was. Actually, all I see in it are the same quotes that the proponents of the Charismatic movement use constantly to speak about themselves in their efforts to glorify the movement and by extension themselves. It lends no more credence to the movement now then it did when it was first written. And the only people who really paid any attention to it then were the charismatics themselves.

I do find it somewhat telling though that none of the Popes listed were charismatic, and in fact no Pope period has ever been charismatic. Wonder why? It would certainly lend credence to the movement, don’t you think? But alas, none of them has apparently requested this great gift and been slain in the spirit…

No, basically all the Popes do is talk about the movement in the same general terms that they use to talk about everything else. Not much different at all.

 

[DustinsDad]

…For whatever reason, they are seeing the Holy Spirit at work in Pentecostal churches, unaware that the same Holy Spirit works within the hearts of the faithful who stay within the Church.

Well, this is why I mentioned the First Vatican Council (See Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, Chapter 3)

The question is, is this really the Holy Spirit at work here?

Towhich, I will only say that even if it is the Holy Spirit at work on individuals ensnared in these sects, then inasmuch as folks are led out of the Church, and inasmuch as folks outside the Church are moved to remain outside the Church, then these folks are resisting the Holy Spirit and not truly allowing themselves to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Here are a couple of the pertinant sections:
6. Now, although the assent of faith is by no means a blind movement of the mind, yet no one can accept the gospel preaching in the way that is necessary for achieving salvation without the inspiration and illumination of the holy Spirit, who gives to all facility in accepting and believing the truth.

1. And so faith in itself, even though it may not work through charity, is a gift of God, and its operation is a work belonging to the order of salvation, in that a person yields true obedience to God himself when he accepts and collaborates with his grace which he could have rejected.
2. Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.
3. To this witness is added the effective help of power from on high. For, the kind Lord stirs up those who go astray and helps them by his grace so that they may come to the knowledge of the truth; and also confirms by his grace those whom he has translated into his admirable light, so that they may persevere in this light, not abandoning them unless he is first abandoned.
4. Consequently, the situation of those, who by the heavenly gift of faith have embraced the catholic truth, is by no means the same as that of those who, led by human opinions, follow a false religion; for those who have accepted the faith under the guidance of the church can never have any just cause for changing this faith or for calling it into question.
   (First Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, cf Chapter 3)
   Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

…In so far as speaking in tongues, I will give the quotations from scripture followed by the "New Jerome Biblical Commentary**"** …

Romans 8:26-27 says,
“The Spirit too helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in speech. He who searches hearts knows what the Spirit means, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints as God himself wills.”
The Jerome Commentary on on these two verses on page 855 says
“(The Spirit too helps us in our weakness) The third testimony to the new life and glorious destiny of Christians. Human aspirations risk being inefficacious because of the natural weakness of the flesh, but the Spirit adds its intercessions transcending such weakness, intercedes over and above. The result is that the Christian utters what would otherwise be ineffable; to pray “Abba Father” , the Spirit must dynamically assist the Christian. The Christian who so prays is aware that the Spirit manifests its presence in him or her. (Who searches hearts - an Old Testament phrase for God) Only God himself comprehends the language and the mind of the Spirit and recognizes such Spirit assisted prayer according to God’s will. It was part of his plan of salvation that the Spirit should play such a dynamic role in the aspirations and prayers of Christians.”

With all due respect Deacon, I don’t think the commentary here is speaking in regards to tounges - it’s in regards to all authentic Christian prayer…mine included .

Even from the Jerome commentary, the “ineffable thing” we cannot utter without the Holy Spirit isn’t a strange tongue - it’s “Abba Father”:
“The result is that the Christian utters what would otherwise be ineffable; to pray “Abba Father”, the Spirit must dynamically assist the Christian.”
The commentary you cite is a little more in depths, but isn’t different from the simple and brief commentary on verse 26 from the Douay-Rheims…
“26: “Asketh for us”… The Spirit is said to ask, and desire for the saints, and to pray in us; inasmuch as he inspireth prayer, and teacheth us to pray.”
(see drbo.org/chapter/52008.htm )
Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DebChris]

Acts 19:1-18 speaks of St. Paul laying hands on the people of Epheseus. Before his arrival they knew only about the Baptism of repentence and nothing of the Holy Spirit.
“And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.”
I recognize that those who come to this thread believe in the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, doubt has been expressed regarding His working in the lives of the faithful as He did during the time of the Apostles.
I recently read that Thomas Aquinas received the gift of tongues late in life and that Pope John Paul II was heard singing during charismatic Masses. The workmen building the great cathredrals may have sung as they worked. I do not know whether or not any of these stories are true. I know only how God has worked in my own life over the past years. I have already shared the testimony I heard from a priest who contemplated leaving the priesthood until he was prayed over for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I also shared, if not on this thread then on another, what I heard about a Carmelite who already had an intimate relationship with God.
I have posted what the popes and bishops have written along with the magisterial teaching contained in both the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the United States Catechism of the Catholic Church for Adults.
Faith is a gift that calls for a faith response from each of us. This faith response requires a certain amount of docility on our part. It means setting aside preconceived ideas of who God is and how God works. Ours is indeed a living God who does what he wills in heaven and on earth.
Of course the greatest gift that any of us can ask for is the gift of Love. “He who abides in Love abides in God and God in HIm.”
Wherever I lived, the painting of the Good Shepard (a paint by numbers completed by my older sister) always held a prominent place in our home as I was growing up. The Good Shepard rescues any of His flock who become ensnarled in a thorny bush and leads us back into His fold. That rescue can only take place when we relax and place our trust in Him.

 

[Margarite]

We must be good sheep though, we must make sure that it is the voice of our master that we are answering. It is easy for the evil one to imitate the voice of the master in order to ensnare his sheep. After all, sheep are some of the dumbest creatures in the world, and I think God chose to represent us as sheep for a reason.
Also, the shepherd may go and find his sheep, but if his sheep refuses to listen, and to follow, then what can the shepherd to but keep trying until the sheep dies. The shepherd will always try, but it is up to the sheep to follow.
Now we must be wise sheep because often, others try to imitate the master’s voice and it is so easy to follow him. He does not enforce rules on us, he just lets us go wild. He can even use prayer against us. He even used scripture against Jesus, so don’t underestimate his power.
We who are asking these questions about the CM, are just being careful sheep. We are safe in the pasture, we are not lost, so why should we follow a voice that we are unsure of, why should we follow a voice if we aren’t sure if it is inside, or outside of the pasture, we are not sure if it is the master, or his enemy.
We are careful, because we are safe, and we don’t want to risk becoming unsafe for no reason that you have been able to provide. I am safe, I am comfortable without the CM, why should I risk my soul by opening myself to this movement that I am unsure of.

If I told you that I belonged to this cool group where we went and sat in the Adoration Chapel and we felt so happy, and then I told you that my friend belonged to the same group, and he was leaving the Church, and another friend had decided to become a woman priest, and another to become a missionary, and another to teach catechism, and another to become an atheist. What would you say? You would be wary, you would say that is good that one is teaching catechism and that you are happy, and that another friend is becoming a missionary, but what about the person leaving the Church, and the woman priest and the atheist? Why should I join your group if so many people in it are doing bad things?
Well, if I was people in the CM, I would say: We think it is God that makes us feel good. Other religions have the same feeling. It makes us feel good. Some of us become better Catholics because of it.
And that is all that you say.

Well, that is not enough for me.

 

[palmas85]

Acts 19:1-18 speaks of St. Paul laying hands on the people of Epheseus. Before his arrival they knew only about the Baptism of repentence and nothing of the Holy Spirit.
“And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.”
I recognize that those who come to this thread believe in the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, doubt has been expressed regarding His working in the lives of the faithful as He did during the time of the Apostles.
I recently read that Thomas Aquinas received the gift of tongues late in life and that Pope John Paul II was heard singing during charismatic Masses. The workmen building the great cathredrals may have sung as they worked. I do not know whether or not any of these stories are true. I know only how God has worked in my own life over the past years. I have already shared the testimony I heard from a priest who contemplated leaving the priesthood until he was prayed over for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I also shared, if not on this thread then on another, what I heard about a Carmelite who already had an intimate relationship with God.
I have posted what the popes and bishops have written along with the magisterial teaching contained in both the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the United States Catechism of the Catholic Church for Adults.
Faith is a gift that calls for a faith response from each of us. This faith response requires a certain amount of docility on our part. It means setting aside preconceived ideas of who God is and how God works. Ours is indeed a living God who does what he wills in heaven and on earth.
Of course the greatest gift that any of us can ask for is the gift of Love. “He who abides in Love abides in God and God in HIm.”
Wherever I lived, the painting of the Good Shepard (a paint by numbers completed by my older sister) always held a prominent place in our home as I was growing up. The Good Shepard rescues any of His flock who become ensnarled in a thorny bush and leads us back into His fold. That rescue can only take place when we relax and place our trust in Him.

Could you please let us know where you read these or heard about them? As far as John Paul II, charismatics have tried to rope him in for years and have never been successful. I’d like to know where this one came from. As far as Thomas Aquinas, I’ve looked everywhere that I can think of. And while true that he did write about the gift of tongues I think you might be surprised at what he wrote concerning them. Are you sure that he is the Saint you are thinking of??

 

[una_fides]

Faith is a gift that calls for a faith response from each of us. This faith response requires a certain amount of docility on our part.

I agree with this statement 100%, and if you did too then you wouldn’t be reading your interpretations into Scripture concerning a special baptism of the Holy Spirit and being “slain in the Spirit” both Protestant innovations that have crept into the Church.

It means setting aside preconceived ideas of who God is and how God works. Ours is indeed a living God who does what he wills in heaven and on earth.

Exactly. We cannot have let our preconceived notions about God, based on our experiences, cloud our thinking. We must rely only on the Tradition of the Church and her authority.
To say that God does as He wills is correct, but to try to say that God can act contrary to His character or that because He is God He can go against His own Divine Revelation or that He can change is a very grave error that relativizes all truth into complete subjectivity. If God can contradict teachings that He has previously infallibly proclaimed through His Church, then God would be a liar! God cannot sin. We are not limiting God; we are reiterating what God has revealed to us about Himself. And what God has revealed is that He cannot communicate or put His seal of approval on lies or on those who oppose His truth. End of story.
We must as you said set aside preconceived notions contrary to His revelation that are based on feelings and experiences and instead trust in divine Catholic faith as God has revealed. To such we cannot add nor take away.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Quite a deflection there Deacon. Good job, no great job actually. Yes, I am well aware of the commentary and I am well aware of the Charismatic gifts as stated in scripture.I accept them in their entirity and believe deeply that those gifts can be manifested at the pleasure of the Holy Spirit. But I see no evidence at all that Charismatics today equal or even come close to what was done then.

If you are well of the Jerome commentary on these verses, on what basis do you reject it. It is either believed ore rejected. It cannot go both ways. If rejected, it again reflects judgment on people whom you do not know.

I don’t recall any of the Church Fathers going outside of the Church and asking those who reviled the Church to lay hands upon them and thus expose them to the Holy Spirit, as happened at the beginning of the movement. I don’t recall any of the Church Fathers or any of the Saints for that matter, requesting baptism of the Holy Spirit in a separate apparently more meaningful ceremony, to unlock the gifts or bring them to life . Nope I must have missed that completely.

So you are saying that the people, deacons, priests, bishops cardinals and the last several popes who are part of the renewal are all wrong in encouraging the growth of this renewal. Gee, Sounds like another judgment to me.

In fact Deacon, I don’t recall hearing about a Charismatic movement at all within the Church ever until after Vatican II and close association with those who deny the truth of the Holy Mother Church and insist that it, the Church sends most of its members to Hell through the teaching of a false gospel…

As to when it started, you are correct, it did not start until the early 1970s. As far as denying the truths of the Church and following a false gospel, no such thing takes place. II have no idea where you come up with this, I can only say it is wrong. Again, look at my last answer as to those who take part and then simply think about it.

Quoting scripture till you’re blue in the face to prove or disprove a point, is an old protestant trick.

Excuse me here, but I really did have a good laugh at this statement. Does not the Church use scripture and even extensively quote it in the CCC as authority. Are you saying that the CCC uses protestant thinking???

They dreamed it up and they perfected it. It really doesn’t work though except with people who haven’t read scripture and other patristic works. They can be easily mislead and tripped up by this method. people who are knowledgeable about Scripture, history and the other patristic works, will seldom if ever be tricked by smooth taking verse quoting salesmen of a particular line. And thats really all they are, salesman.

Please make up your mind. Can I use scripture and a Catholic commentary or not. You cannot have it both ways.

As far as the Charismatics making the Eucharist the center of the mass, when do they do actually do that?

This may come as a surprise, but at each mass we attend,

After everyone is tired from being slain in the spirit, I’d actually like a scriptural reference for that one Deacon, or from propheysizing or from the extended private prayer in a language that only the one praying even understands?

Excuse me, but I thought you said you were familiar with the commentary. Let me re quote a part you seem to have forgotten. ***“Only God comprehends the language and the mind of the Spirit and recognizes such Spirit assisted prayer, according to God’s will.” ***

And no, Deacon, as I said, I have never doubted the Holy Spirit, or felt that he was neglected as many charismatics do. In fact I think the Holy Spirit does what he does and chooses who He wants regardless as to what we as humans want.

WOW, here we are in total agreement

What happened in the early Church and now, are two distinct different things no matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise. To even try to compare the charismatic movement to the apostles and what happened to them, I think, verges on blasphemy, .

Please show me where I did this

In fact since you like Jerome, read what he had to say about your charismatic ancestors, the followers of Montanus. . Montanus’ charismatic group was full of signs and wonders and healings and ecstatic utterances and everything else that charismatics today claim and do as their own, Why they even claimed private prayer languages and the Holy Spirit using them as instruments of His divine will.

I really did not know we could not ask the Spirit to pray in our behalf. I guess neither did those who put the Liturgy of the Hours together. Let me quote one prayer from the intercessions of morning prayer for Friday of the 7th week of Easter. ***“Almighty Father, you know that we are weak, even when we pray. Give us your Spirit to pray on our behalf.”

---

Oh and Deacon just for the record, How do you know that I don’t know , as you inferred? That actually seems quite presumptuous.

Maybe from the same source you know that Charismatics are not Eucharistic centered.

Prayers and Blessings (and I say this sincerely)
Deacon Ed b

 

[DebChris]

I considered no longer posting on this site. I choose not to enter into debates with those who denigrate what I have personally experienced or deny its reality. I will however answer genuine questions regarding what it means to be charismatic.
I think it is important to differentiate between feelings and experiences. Experiences are those events that occur within our lifetimes. These experiences create the individual histories of each of our lives. Very often there are emotions attached to specific events (our experiences), We are generally happy at weddings and sad when somebody close to us dies. We are not robots and our emotional responses are part of what make us human. We are devastated by betrayal. At the same time, we draw strength from God and the support of friends.
We know from scripture that at times Jesus admonished those whom he healed to tell no one; yet the healed person instead told everybody what had happened. Imagine the jubilation of a person who was crippled suddenly walking, a blind man who can see, or a person who has been deaf suddenly hearing sounds for the first time in his life.
One event in my own life involved finding myself at the bottom of a 75 foot cliff following a car accident. Should I not praise God because I am alive? Should I not give glory to God that I was able to climb up the embankment and away from a vehicle that had been totally destroyed?
I do not know the history (the experiences) of others on this thread. Each of us has no doubt known both sorrow and joy.
I will borrow the words of a friend. “For those with faith, no explanation is necessary. For those without faith, none will suffice.”

 

[palmas85]

If you are well of the Jerome commentary on these verses, on what basis do you reject it. It is either believed ore rejected. It cannot go both ways. If rejected, it again reflects judgment on people whom you do not know.

St Jerome was quite specific about what he wrote. I suggest you read what he wrote concerning the alleged use of the charisms, ie:by the followers of Montanus. In no way does St Jerome anywhere, advocate anything that resembles the current charismatic movement

So you are saying that the people, deacons, priests, bishops cardinals and the last several popes who are part of the renewal are all wrong in encouraging the growth of this renewal. Gee, Sounds like another judgment to me.

The Aryan heresy engulfed 3/4ths of the Church before it was extinguished. Many Church leaders praised it,supported it and were full blown members of it… It didn’t make it right then and I doubt that it makes it right now.
Incidentally, no Pope that I am aware of was or is part of the renewal movement. If so which one?

As to when it started, you are correct, it did not start until the early 1970s. As far as denying the truths of the Church and following a false gospel, no such thing takes place. II have no idea where you come up with this, I can only say it is wrong. Again, look at my last answer as to those who take part and then simply think about it.

The evangelical protestants who started the whole modern thing actually do hate and revile the Church and deny Her authority completely. They claim by and large that the catholic Church preaches a false gospel. The first Catholic charismatics incidentally asked these very same protestants for the laying on of hands and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I don’t really see something authentic and from the Holy Spirit, would come from such people who are vehemently opposed to the Holy Mother Church

Excuse me here, but I really did have a good laugh at this statement. Does not the Church use scripture and even extensively quote it in the CCC as authority. Are you saying that the CCC uses protestant thinking??? Please make up your mind. Can I use scripture and a Catholic commentary or not. You cannot have it both ways.

The Church, who is the interpretor of scripture, using scripture is not quite the same thing as each individual using scriptural quotations to advance their personal position. The sheer number of Protestant communities all separated by different interpretations of scripture would seem to prove that. My objection comes when individuals or communities stake out a position and defend it, usually erroneously using scripture to back them up. Ever had a Mormon, 7th Day Adventist or a Jehovahs Witness drop by? Charismatics also are engaged in this door to door activity, although I hope they use only Church approved interpretations rather than their own. On this forum, I have seen many Charismatics try to make some, heck, any connection for the movement through quoting scripture that has never even come close to validating their position.

This may come as a surprise, but at each mass we attend,

I have attended more than a few charismatic Masses and prayer meetings, having a brother who has been involved for years. The Eucharist in these gatherings seems almost an afterthought after everyone has been bathed in the blood of the Spirit so to speak.

Excuse me, but I thought you said you were familiar with the commentary. Let me re quote a part you seem to have forgotten. ***“Only God comprehends the language and the mind of the Spirit and recognizes such Spirit assisted prayer, according to God’s will.” ***
**
**

Nothing here about Charismatics at all. One can be influenced by and pray with the assistance of the Holy Spirit without the assistance of or need for the Charismatic movement. In fact the movement itself seems to be the central issue here and not the Holy Spirit.

Please show me where I did this

If you are not one of those who claim that the renewal is the same as happened as during the time of the Apostles, then accept my apologies. Unfortunately, more than a few of your charismatic brethren do make this claim. Almost as if they are super Christians so to speak. I recall several posters on this forum who called themselves the new apostles and the true followers of the early church..

I really did not know we could not ask the Spirit to pray in our behalf. I guess neither did those who put the Liturgy of the Hours together. Let me quote one prayer from the intercessions of morning prayer for Friday of the 7th week of Easter. ***“Almighty Father, you know that we are weak, even when we pray. Give us your Spirit to pray on our behalf.”

---

**Nothing here about Charismatics. Asking the Holy Spirit to pray in your behalf is not the same as claiming He prays through you at your command and in essence serving you at your pleasure…
**

Maybe from the same source you know that Charismatics are not Eucharistic centered.

Mine was from personal experience, as I assume yours was as well.

Prayers and Blessings (and I say this sincerely)
Deacon Ed b

Calling me judgemental doen’t bother me in the least Deacon. We are all judgemental everyday, even you.

 

[una_fides]

I considered no longer posting on this site. I choose not to enter into debates with those who denigrate what I have personally experienced or deny its reality. I will however answer genuine questions regarding what it means to be charismatic.

If you are referring to anything I have posted, then I hope you did not take that away from them. My intentions are to seek the objective truth and try to avoid any emotions and emotion-driven experiences as a basis in making these determinations. I too have “spoken in tongues” from my first grade year in school up until my ninth or so. I put that in quotes because I personally do not believe that it was a supernatural gift. My teacher taught us to act as others were acting and she demonstrated how to speak in tongues. I also know that we as humans learn by imitation. So when we see others having these ecstatic-type highly emotion-driven experiences, they can at times seem appealing to us, especially at certain times in our lives. I am not saying that these acts are absolute evil or anything like that, as those who do them, do so with good intentions. What am saying is that with these actions citing a supernatural origin, (as with anything that claims Divine origin) we must first weigh it against what has already been established truth in order to test the veracity of the message.

The biggest hang up for me and most people on here who find the charismatic movement problematic is the origin of the movement. I have yet to hear one good explanation for the fact that the movement first began for several decades as a strictly protestant (and often times anti-Catholic) movement until these “spirit led” individuals then decided to share these gifts with the Catholic Church. Because the Catholic Church already contains the fullness of truth and because we know that there is no salvation outside the Church and because we know that God’s grace leads individuals to become Catholic, then we know that the groups in which these gifts originated were not truly open to the fullness of the Spirit’s message. Furthermore, as repeatedly stated, these sign gifts are designed to verify the message of those who are preaching it. The various divided protestant groups were preaching many different gospels, all of which did not contain anything about becoming a member of Christ’s one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.

In these discussions, I am only seeking the truth and hope that you are doing the same. My biggest question is whether anyone can come up with a better answer to the aforesaid problem of the movement’s origin other than that “the Holy Spirit can work however he wants.” For we all know that if the Spirit were to work contrary to His own revelation, then He would be leading us all astray and we could no longer trust the truths infallibly defined by holy Mother Church.

 

[DebChris]

If you are referring to anything I have posted, then I hope you did not take that away from them. My intentions are to seek the objective truth and try to avoid any emotions and emotion-driven experiences as a basis in making these determinations. I too have “spoken in tongues” from my first grade year in school up until my ninth or so. I put that in quotes because I personally do not believe that it was a supernatural gift. My teacher taught us to act as others were acting and she demonstrated how to speak in tongues. I also know that we as humans learn by imitation. So when we see others having these ecstatic-type highly emotion-driven experiences, they can at times seem appealing to us, especially at certain times in our lives. I am not saying that these acts are absolute evil or anything like that, as those who do them, do so with good intentions. What am saying is that with these actions citing a supernatural origin, (as with anything that claims Divine origin) we must first weigh it against what has already been established truth in order to test the veracity of the message.

The biggest hang up for me and most people on here who find the charismatic movement problematic is the origin of the movement. I have yet to hear one good explanation for the fact that the movement first began for several decades as a strictly protestant (and often times anti-Catholic) movement until these “spirit led” individuals then decided to share these gifts with the Catholic Church. Because the Catholic Church already contains the fullness of truth and because we know that there is no salvation outside the Church and because we know that God’s grace leads individuals to become Catholic, then we know that the groups in which these gifts originated were not truly open to the fullness of the Spirit’s message. Furthermore, as repeatedly stated, these sign gifts are designed to verify the message of those who are preaching it. The various divided protestant groups were preaching many different gospels, all of which did not contain anything about becoming a member of Christ’s one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.

In these discussions, I am only seeking the truth and hope that you are doing the same. My biggest question is whether anyone can come up with a better answer to the aforesaid problem of the movement’s origin other than that “the Holy Spirit can work however he wants.” For we all know that if the Spirit were to work contrary to His own revelation, then He would be leading us all astray and we could no longer trust the truths infallibly defined by holy Mother Church.

My experience was not simply a matter of imitating those around me. It occurred at a retreat center where I was seeking the spiritual help I needed at a most difficult time in my life.
My first retreat was a private Easter retreat that began on Holy Thursday. It was the first time I had ever participated in the LOTH. My retreat director gave me specific scripture passages to read (nothing about Pentecost or the gift of tongues). She showed me how to place my name in the place of Jacob/Israel or other persons to whom a particular passage might be addressed. In other words, she taught me how to personally read scripture, applying it to my own life. I journalled, the only way I could express the myriad emotions I was experiencing at the time. The retreat center was run by Marianists and I found myself returning. It was 50 miles from where I lived at the time. On Ascension Thursday, I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I did experience that peace that Christ promised, the peace beyond understanding.
After I received the gift, I made an appointment to talk to my parish priest. He was aware of my situation and took special note of the change that had taken place in me even as I discussed home life consequences.
Were the gift I received purely an emotional occurence, I would not be able to pray in the Spirit (singing in tongues) to this day.

I mentioned the Pentecost Holiness church that I had visited once months earlier. I had concerns about the “ecstatically charged” atmosphere that left no room for reflection. The person who had brought me did not understand how I could simply observe what I saw. In other words, I was not impressed. She emphatically refused my return invitation to attend Mass. I do understand skepticism.
I know that God can and does work in the lives of those who may not be members of the Catholic Church. We see Jesus healing not only the Jews. The Canaanite woman was healed when she touched the hem of His garments. The Catholic Church uses the words of the centurion, “only say the word and I shall be healed.”
He offered Living Water to the Samaritan woman. God knows what is in our hearts.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Calling me judgemental doen’t bother me in the least Deacon. We are all judgemental everyday, even you.

That was really neat the way you placed your responses in mine where I could not place yours in order to answer then as you state them. That indeed was a smooth move. Totally self serving, but smooth.

As a result, what I will say in response is that I don’t think I could convince you if the sky was blue and we were both looking at it. I will say however is that we do not claim to have the Holy Spirit at our beck and call as you say. The Spirit moves as he wills. I pointed that out, but as with the rest you passed it by. You really must have had a bad experience with the Charismatic renewal. or someone close to you. For that I am truly sorry if it did happen. As I said, I will keep you sincerely in my prayers. Do keep in mind though that we pray for the Spirit to pray for us, we don’t tell him what to do. I pray that he will shower you abundantly with his gifts.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[palmas85]

That was really neat the way you placed your responses in mine where I could not place yours in order to answer then as you state them. That indeed was a smooth move. Totally self serving, but smooth.

As a result, what I will say in response is that I don’t think I could convince you if the sky was blue and we were both looking at it. I will say however is that we do not claim to have the Holy Spirit at our beck and call as you say. The Spirit moves as he wills. I pointed that out, but as with the rest you passed it by. You really must have had a bad experience with the Charismatic renewal. or someone close to you. For that I am truly sorry if it did happen. As I said, I will keep you sincerely in my prayers. Do keep in mind though that we pray for the Spirit to pray for us, we don’t tell him what to do. I pray that he will shower you abundantly with his gifts.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

Actually, I don’t know how to post things in the way that you did. If I could have I would have. It would probably been a lot easier than the way I did it. Sorry.

If you say that you do not have the Holy Spirit at your beck and call thats great. However many of your charismatic associates do indeed make this claim. They can turn it on and shut it off at will. In fact quite an uproar occurred on this forum a while back when it was reported that a Bishop was presiding at a local Mass and charismatics started dong their thing before the consecration. The Bishop told them to stop their actions… Amazingly they did so. I say amazingly because that sort of proved that they had complete and total control over the manifestations. If they have complete and total control then they must by extension be controlling the experience itself. That particular exchange went on for a while and got quite heated as you may imagine.

Perhaps you do pray for the Holy Spirit to pray for you. However again many of your associates do not, at least in the manner that you say. Instead the Holy Spirit seems like their personal plaything. As an example the mother of a friend of my youngest daughter. A hard core charismatic, she sings in tongues while vacuming her house. She also levitates on occasion while vacuming as well. Hey some of her prayer group claim to have seen it happen, so it must be true right?

As far as bad experiences no, none at all. I however have a way of seeing things the way they actually are rather then the way people claim they are. And I place the Charismatics in the same general boat as the Life Teen people and the Neo cats. The Catholic Church wasn’t good enough for them, being kind of cold and formalized, so they added a new dimension to it, something that was more responsive to them personally.

The Holy Spirit has showered me abundantly throughout my entire life Deacon. Thats another reason I know the Charismatic movement isn’t really needed.

All you really need is faith. Thats it. No movement, no faith formation seminars, no endorphin rushing experiences, nothing at all of any of the hundred groups that have sprung up over the past 40 years or so. Just faith.

 

[kyria]

Hello, I am a Charismatic Catholic. I love being a Charismatic. I think it is the best thing that ever happened to me. Before becoming a Charismatic I was a lapsed Catholic. I know a lot of people have issues with the CCR due to some experiences or some things they have heard in the Pentecostal churches however there are many different Pentecostal churches out there so I don’t personally let things that I hear happen in Pentecostal Churches color my view of the CCR. I have read some people’s negative experiences of the CCR, and also read of people being doubtful of this movement due to reading one or two negative stories on the CCR. Just as there are people who might have negative experiences or views on the CCR, there are also Catholics who have stories to tell of negative experiences of the Catholic Church.

I’ve never seen Charismatics talk in tongues; I hear them pray in tongues. We don’t sit around in groups having conversations in tongues. We might sing, we do a lot of praise to the Holy Spirit and we like to pray. Some Charismatics have various spiritual gifts such as tongues, healing, prophecy etc. Some Charismatics might give the CCR a bit of a negative rep, but I’ve come across quite a few non Charismatic Catholics who have given the Catholic Church a bad rep too.

People don’t have to join the CCR. This is a movement of the Catholic Church that has the support of Pope Benedict. If people are interested in obtaining some information and clarification, there are numerous CCR websites worldwide. The International Charismatic Renewal Services can be contacted on this link iccrs.org/

And the Catholic Charismatic Center can be accessed via this link ccc.garg.com/

God Bless,

Kyria

 

[DebChris]

zenit.org/article-22560?l=english

This is an article on the Pope’s homily for Pentecost if anybody is interested.