Charismatic Roman Catholicism

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Deacon_Ed_B said:
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I think this should help in our discussions as to whether the Pope encourages the Charismatic Renewal or not. I just hope all the nay sayers really read the article from ZENIT.
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Deacon_Ed_B said:
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Oh, I read it. And I agree with what our Holy Father said 100%, and rejoice in it. However…and this is the key difference…I did not find this to be a ringing endorsement of the CCR. What you read and interpreted as a papal “slam dunk” for the Renewal, I read and interpreted as an invitation and encouragement to take our individual baptismal vows seriously, and to seek the Blessed Mother’s intercession to make real our own “Pentecost.”

All comes down to what color crayons you use, Deacon. If the Holy Father is going to endorse this movement, it needs to be in clearly unambiguous terms. Latching onto key phrases and “buzz words” that have special significance in charismatic circles and then triumphantly proclaiming, “See…Benedict approves!” is more than a skosh disingenuous.
 
Irish_Saints said:
Oh, I read it. And I agree with what our Holy Father said 100%, and rejoice in it. However…and this is the key difference…I did not find this to be a ringing endorsement of the CCR. What you read and interpreted as a papal “slam dunk” for the Renewal, I read and interpreted as an invitation and encouragement to take our individual baptismal vows seriously, and to seek the Blessed Mother’s intercession to make real our own “Pentecost.”

All comes down to what color crayons you use, Deacon. If the Holy Father is going to endorse this movement, it needs to be in clearly unambiguous terms. Latching onto key phrases and “buzz words” that have special significance in charismatic circles and then triumphantly proclaiming, “See…Benedict approves!” is more than a skosh disingenuous.
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Let’s just ask that others read this and make up their minds for themselves. I did think the reference to praying for the Baptism of the Spirit was quite enlightening…
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Perhaps reading the actual Homily is a better idea than an article on it.

Sorry Deacon Ed, but I fail to see how this suggests His Holiness’ approval of the Charismatic Movement. He calls for a renewed outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but at no time does he suggest people should be praying over one another to speak in tongues. Apart from anything else he also refers to “overcoming the curse of Babel” and how “this Spirit gives life to a community that is at the same time one and universal”. It seems to rather defeat the purpose of defeating Babel if we’re speaking in languages no one else in the assembly/community can understand. Surely that just creates division which is not exactly something the Holy Spirit is renowned for.

It is also worth noting that when Our Lord taught us how to pray he didn’t teach the Apostles how to speak in tongues.
 
kyria said:
Hello, I am a Charismatic Catholic. I love being a Charismatic. I think it is the best thing that ever happened to me…I’ve never seen Charismatics talk in tongues; I hear them pray in tongues. We don’t sit around in groups having conversations in tongues. We might sing, we do a lot of praise to the Holy Spirit and we like to pray. Some Charismatics have various** spiritual gifts **such as tongues, healing, **prophecy **etc. Kyria
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As a doubting Thomas I must ask, what “prophecy” have charismatics revealed?
 
Christ’s peace spreads only through the renewed hearts of men and women who have been reconciled and made themselves servants of justice, ready to spread peace in the world only with the force of truth, without compromising with the mentality of the world, because the world cannot give Christ’s peace: This is how the Church can be a ferment of that reconciliation that comes from God. She can do this only if she remains docile to the Spirit and bears witness to the Gospel, only if she carries the cross like Jesus and with Jesus. This is precisely what the saints of every age testify to!
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Accepting the Baptism of the Holy Spirit means allowing the Holy Spirit to work in our lives. It is a renewal of the heart.
The gift of tongues, only one of many manifestations, is simply a gift. It is not taught. Other more subtle manifestations include a greater love of the Sacraments leading to more frequent reception of the Eucharist and the Sacrament of Reconciliation even when this means being ostracized by those who were once closest to us.
 
Our_Refuge said:
As a doubting Thomas I must ask, what “prophecy” have charismatics revealed?
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Prophecy needs to be defined. Prophecy is not forecasting the future. A prophet is simply God’s messager. Most often the prophecy that is given during a charismatic meeting is God telling us how much He loves us. It is often a call to greater repentence and a deeper prayer life.
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I think this should help in our discussions as to whether the Pope encourages the Charismatic Renewal or not. I just hope all the nay sayers really read the article from ZENIT.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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I read it Deacon. Did you? Nothing at all in there about the charismatic movement or any of the manifestations that charismatics use to distinguish themselves from the rest of us.It nether endorses the movement or praises it. It actually says nothing at all about it.

I quote, still haven’t learned how yet Deacon, sorry
**Benedict XVI said that Pentecost is thus, “in a special way, the baptism of the Church who undertakes her universal mission beginning from the streets of Jerusalem with prodigious preaching in the different languages of humanity.”

“In this baptism of the Holy Spirit,” the Pope continued, “the personal and communal dimensions – the ‘I’ of the disciple and the ‘we’ of the Church – are inseparable. The Spirit consecrates the person and at the same time makes him a living member of the mystical body of Christ, participant in the mission to witness to his love.”

This consecration and insertion into the mystical body of Christ, “is actualized through the sacraments of Christian initiation: baptism and confirmation,” he said.

“In my message for World Youth Day 2008, I invited young people to rediscover the presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives and, therefore, the importance of these sacraments,” the Holy Father added. "Today I would like to extend this invitation to everyone: Let us rediscover, dear brothers and sisters, the beauty of being baptized in the Holy Spirit; let us be aware again of our baptism and of our confirmation, sources of grace that are always present.

“Let us ask the Virgin Mary to obtain a renewed Pentecost for the Church again today, a Pentecost that will spread in everyone the joy of living and witnessing to the Gospel.”**

Actually Deacon, the article is pretty straightforward. We are all baptized and sealed with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Mother Church. at Baptism and Confirmation, not at some later date in a novel baptism of the Holy Spirit or being slain in the spirit or any of the other gimmicks that are employed by charismatics of all denominations. Nothing in the article that either endorses or even remotely addresses the charismatic movement.

To say that it says otherwise is quite a leap, even from a true died in the wool supporter of the movement.
 
DebChris said:
My experience was not simply a matter of imitating those around me. …
I mentioned the Pentecost Holiness church that I had visited once months earlier. I had concerns about the “ecstatically charged” atmosphere that left no room for reflection. The person who had brought me did not understand how I could simply observe what I saw. In other words, I was not impressed. She emphatically refused my return invitation to attend Mass. I do understand skepticism.
I know that God can and does work in the lives of those who may not be members of the Catholic Church. We see Jesus healing not only the Jews. The Canaanite woman was healed when she touched the hem of His garments. The Catholic Church uses the words of the centurion, “only say the word and I shall be healed.”
He offered Living Water to the Samaritan woman. God knows what is in our hearts.
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First, my statement about imitation was simply this: if one did not see another doing it, then he would not do it himself. It is not brought about by the Holy Spirit. It is brought about by emotions, mis-directed faith, and imitating others.

Second, the Protestant atmosphere you described is a clear demonstration of how this movement originated–in “ecstatically charged atmospheres.” This environment is also how it is promulgated and continues today. The reason for this atmosphere is due to everyone giving into their impulses, which they think are being controlled by the Holy Spirit. For this reason, many will bark like dogs, fall on the ground shaking, and dance and jump around as if insane. They are going off impulses. The problem is that Satan also has influence and control over our impulses. The Scripture reading at daily Mass the other day explained that when man falls away into sin it is from his own inner desires, which are the cause. Our human natures are so tainted by sin that when we give into our base impulses, thinking that they are being divinely controlled, we open ourselves up for chaos and havoc being wreaked into the churches.

In 1 Corinthians 14, after explaining the ways certain supernatural gifts were to be performed in churches, St. Paul says in verse 33, “God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.” He then continues by going as far as saying that women should not speak in churches because they are to be under obedience to the law. He concludes the chapter by saying, “let all things be done decently and in order.”

A proof that modern charismatic “gifts” are not manifesting themselves properly is that they do not follow in line with such Scriptures as these. If charismatics wish to do things as Scripture intended, then they should be following the whole of Scripture, not just those verses that they like.

Lastly, regarding your statement on “God using Protestants,” do you have any record of anyone referred to by the Church as a heretic in her 2000 years of history that the Church has officially recognized as having supernatural gifts? Perhaps in Scripture? The extent that God “uses” Protestants is the same extent that He is drawing them to His Holy Catholic Church. As Pope Pius XI clearly stated in Mortalium Animos, this fact that Protestants would inevitably become Catholic if they humbly begged for light from heaven is undeniable. papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM
 
snhs said:
Perhaps reading the actual Homily is a better idea than an article on it.

Sorry Deacon Ed, but I fail to see how this suggests His Holiness’ approval of the Charismatic Movement. He calls for a renewed outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but at no time does he suggest people should be praying over one another to speak in tongues. Apart from anything else he also refers to “overcoming the curse of Babel” and how “this Spirit gives life to a community that is at the same time one and universal”. It seems to rather defeat the purpose of defeating Babel if we’re speaking in languages no one else in the assembly/community can understand. Surely that just creates division which is not exactly something the Holy Spirit is renowned for.

It is also worth noting that when Our Lord taught us how to pray he didn’t teach the Apostles how to speak in tongues.
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Exactly. Our Lord taught them exactly what words to pray, and we use the same words to this day. The spontaneous nature of charismaticism and its divisive nature are at the root of most of its problems. The language of Mass for over 1500 years was nothing but Latin for a reason–namely it creates unity when we are all praying in one united language–the language of the Church.
 
Irish Saints:
All comes down to what color crayons you use, Deacon. If the Holy Father is going to endorse this movement, it needs to be in clearly unambiguous terms.
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How’s this for “unambiguous,” Irish Saints?
Benedict XVI is encouraging and praising the work of the Charismatic Renewal in its commitment to promote communion.
zenit.org/article-22492?l=english
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Coming from a very conservative Pope as this one, and knowing how much faith traditionalists put in his words, I would think this should be well received as his endorsement. So now we have two popes who have publicly made statements approving the CCR movement. 👍
 
Joysong said:
How’s this for “unambiguous,” Irish Saints?

Coming from a very conservative Pope as this one, and knowing how much faith traditionalists put in his words, I would think this should be well received as his endorsement. So now we have two popes who have publicly made statements approving the CCR movement. 👍
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kyria said:
iccrs.org/about_ccr/Popes/popes.htm
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kyria said:
iccrs.org/about_iccrs/recognition/statutes.htm
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Thank you both very much. I just wish I knew how to post these sites as the two of you did.
Next we will have to wait for the nay sayers to say that none of this is real. Thats OK though, we can keep praying for them. Maybe the Holy spirit will even do it through us in tongues. I just wish I could understand what he says.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
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Joysong:
So now we have two popes who have publicly made statements approving the CCR movement.
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It seems I was mistaken, according to Kyria’s posts … there are three popes! I was not aware of the endorsement by Pope Paul VI. Thanks, Kyria!
Deacon Ed B:
Thank you both very much. I just wish I knew how to post these sites as the two of you did.
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Well, let’s call it “providential guidance,” Deacon Ed B. It [just happened?] to enter my email inbox from Zenit last week. How perfectly timely! I was not on specific search looking for the truth … it kinda hit me head on! 😃 You and I know well these marvelous ways of God, ‘coincidentally’ putting in our path that which is needful.
Carole*
 
Remember, we always say there is no COINCIDENCE with God. * I put this in here for all the rest.*
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Let me lead off first by saying that for a sub-group that feels lead to share this extra dimension of spirituality with others, I feel that this overarching combative and superiorist tone to many postings only serves to drive those of us who are honestly seeking further away.

Self-serving characterizations (and in some instances, caricatures) of non-charismatics as “nay-sayers” and as those so dead-set against charismaticism that we’d contest the words of popes if need be, is patently unfair. You’d feel yourselves collectively misused and misrepresented if someone were to paint you all as a bunch of frothing, swaying, jabbering, pew-jumpers.

Most of us who have our reservations here have them as a result of an incomplete and inadequate theology to back the movement, combined with a genesis of dubious origins to the movement and in many cases bad personal experiences with various expressions of the movement. I have gone on record repeatedly saying that the Holy Spirit may move as He wills (as if He needs my permission), and that I am a firm believer is various forms of genuine mysticism and miraculous deeds within the Church. The apparent divide lies in discerning whether or not this movement is, in fact, genuine.

I am not one to throw the baby out with the bath water, and will concede that there are numerous examples of charismatic spirituality that have ignited certain individuals’ faith, and acted as catalyst to taking one’s baptismal vows seriously. It is likely to these people that church leaders (including popes) have given some measure of approval. However, I note in many of these “endorsements” that the pontiff will often temper his encouragement with a clear warning to be vigilant against abuses or the notion that this movement is the be-all, end-all of Catholic spirituality. Often these admonishments are ignored in the promotional literature as so much papal fine print and errata. The result are “rogue” communities of charismatics who rather wallow in these spectacular outbursts, and woe unto the seeker who happens upon such a sight.

So the onus is on “genuine” communities to rein-in those pockets of rebellious operation under control, perhaps best done by conspicuously bringing themselves under the headship of the local and regional ordinaries. One unmasks the counterfeit by ensuring the original is well-recognized and identifiable.

And for goodness sake, retract the claws already! If and when someone expresses doubts or concerns, don’t immediately bring them under the gavel of suspicion of being a “nay-sayer”, “hate-monger”, or other pejorative. Allow us to work through difficulties unmolested by this peculiar proselytizing zeal.
 
3 Principles of Spiritual Renewal (Pope Paul VI):
  1. Faithfulness to the authentic teaching of the Faith.
  2. Grateful reception of gifts.
  3. Supremacy of love over all the other gifts.
 
Irish Saints:
Most of us who have our reservations here have them as a result of an incomplete and inadequate theology to back the movement, combined with a genesis of dubious origins to the movement and in many cases bad personal experiences with various expressions of the movement.
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Why not keep your reservations to yourself, which is certainly your right to hold them, and admit that you are not being led to the call of the CCR? Why do you feel compelled to depict the entire movement as suspect, simply due to your personal bad experiences? I have had very bad experiences with ordinary Catholics, but does that give me license to believe ALL Catholics are suspect? Each movement is going to have its share of weeds among the wheat, but we pray for discernment to identify the false and embrace that which is true.

Jesus did not leave us orphans but promised His Spirit would be with us to bring us into all truth. Human reason can negate faith, which is precisely why He gave us the Church with the promise of the Spirit’s guidance. Is it possible you do not accept the testimony of three popes that the movement is aiuthentic? Why would you type a sentence like this, otherwise?
The apparent divide lies in discerning whether or not this movement is, in fact, genuine.
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There is nothing to discern with respect to the CCR movement being genuine - it is approved. The only problem you struggle with is how to discern the weeds among the wheat in the movement. As one who admits to having absolutely no call to embrace it, why is this a concern of yours to oppose solid teaching from the Church solely based on your bad experience?
It is likely to these people that church leaders (including popes) have given some measure of approval. However, I note in many of these “endorsements” that the pontiff will often temper his encouragement with a clear warning to be vigilant against abuses or the notion that this movement is the be-all, end-all of Catholic spirituality.
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I just posted an article from Pope Benedict last week. There was not a single word of warning. It was complete praise and encouragement. May we please have the sources for your statement?

If you were honestly seeking truth, it would be a simple matter for you to search out the many factual articles posted on the forum in order to clarify your doubts … IF you were truly seeking.
 
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