Charismatic Testimonials ... from formerly Traditional Catholics

[GemmaRose]

I drink coffee every day. Tea - I have to be in the mood for, have to have a craving for.

That’s kind of how I feel about the Charismatic movement. I’m more of a comtemplative, but do enjoy the occasional Charismatic event, and even more so the Catholic Revival movement.

From what I understand, the gift of tongues which is being referred to here is a prayer gift which allows the one praying to have the Holy Spirit pray to the Father through him or her, and is therefore a more perfect prayer. The one praying does not need to know what is being said, or the language being used. (There is another manifestation of the gift of tongues where one person receives a message in a “tongue” but does not understand it. When this happens, the congregation present becomes silent as the message is given, and another person receives the interpretation of the message. I am not speaking here about this manifestation of tongues.)

An American priest that I know (of Italian descent) prays in a prayer tongue which sounds like an African language. (He doesn’t speak any African language.) Once, when he was praying over a friend who was seated in the row behind me, I could hear him praying; I could not understand what he was saying; but I knew it was hilariously funny. How? I don’t know. It was as if the Holy Spirit in me knew what he was saying and it was funny. I had a hard time stifling the giggles. In a minute or so, she started giggling also. (She wasn’t aware that I was laughing, because I was trying to stifle it.) After the prayer meeting was over, I asked her if she had the feeling that what he was praying was humorous. She seemed amazed that I knew that. She agreed that she had no idea what he was praying, but somehow knew it was funny.

Another friend of mine (another American of Italian descent), prays in a language which sounds either to be ancient Hebrew or Aramaic. (I say this because I’ve heard her use the word “Messiah” but pronounced in the way it would be pronounced in Aramaic.)

I, personally, don’t have the gift of tongues, although sometimes receive the gift of singing in tongues.

Can I explain any of this? No. But I also cannot explain the Holy Spirit.

By the way, if anyone thinks this isn’t “Catholic,” we always close with exposition and benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.

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*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani

 

[the_phoenix]

Latin Mass Lover here in Cleveland Ohio … The charismatics whom I’ve come across have been loyal to the Pope, so I used to attend the Wednesday night Mass and healing service, and found it a wonderful experience. Have posted about it more than once here at CAF, will repost the info if there’s any interest.

I prefer not to be given the gift of “speaking in tongues” as most people seem to define it, because of a case I witnessed over the telephone where apparently someone who tried speaking in tongues ended up being diabolically possessed.

That said, I think that as a language major, I have been gifted with tongues in another way. At work, I proofread medical manuals in Spanish, Italian, French, and German, having studied Spanish (Master’s Degree) and French (two years) at the college level as well as Latin (three years) in high school. I have also done some translation from Portuguese and German into English, despite not having studied these languages formally. I’ve taken two semesters of college Japanese, and while rusty from lack of use, I could pick back up what I studied if need be. I do very much consider this ability to be a gift of the Holy Spirit.

As for the Charismatic movement, I would say it’s as good as the people running it … Do they follow the Pope?

~~ the phoenix

 

[jwatza]

Let me tell you a true story of my sister visiting the Church in Mexico of Our Lady of Guadalupe. She is charismatic and was praying in tongues over a person outside of the church when a Mexican man came over to them with great excitement. He asked my sister if she knew what she was saying, my sister told him that she was praying in tongues as the Holy Spirit led her, but that she did not know what she was actually saying. He told her that she was speaking in an ancient Spanish or Indian dialect (can’t remember which) and he was able to interpret what she was saying. It was a message to the person being prayed over from Our Lady. I have heard other happenings such as these in regards to the gift of tongues.

 

[GemmaRose]

I prefer not to be given the gift of “speaking in tongues” as most people seem to define it, because of a case I witnessed over the telephone where apparently someone who tried speaking in tongues ended up being diabolically possessed.

I obviously can’t comment on this specific incident since I’ve never heard of it, but I don’t think that speaking in tongues leads to diabolical possession.

First, I’ve never heard of someone “trying.” One is prayed over in order to receive the gift by a group of leaders of the prayer community recognized by their faithfulness to the Church. Sometimes the gift is received. Sometimes it is not. ("…we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us…" Romans 12:6)

Second. in instances of diabolical possession, oftentimes the person has had prior “dabblings,” i.e. ouija boards, tarot cards, palm reading, seances, Santeria, voodoo, etc. Exposing oneself to such things is an open invitation to an evil spirit (a demon), and even if one no longer is involved in such abominations, it does not mean that the evil spirit is not still lurking. Therefore, when one tries to move closer to God, it’s like waving a red flag in front of a bull (the demon). The person needs to truly repent of such past activities and Confess. The person may even need the priest to pray a prayer of exorcism over them if there is an oppression (or a full-blown exorcism if there is actual possession).

As for the Charismatic movement, I would say it’s as good as the people running it … Do they follow the Pope?

~~ the phoenix

Amen !

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*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani

 

[muffinmojo]

Though I personally am not moved (I’m actually quite turned off to the point it probably damages my spirituality) by Charismatic worship, I don’t see a problem with it for people who it does move. However…I don’t like the idea of it being done during Mass. I think that things like charismatic prayer, folky music, etc, should be done outside of Mass to show that one can use modern things to worship, but that the Mass is eternal and separate from day-to-day life.

I also think it should be done cautiously and an atmosphere should not be created that pressures people into speaking in tongues, as I have seen in protestant charismatic churches…I heard one time of a man who began speaking rapidly in tongues, and a Japanese man there said he was speaking Japanese but it was all obscenity and vulgar, hateful things…I think people trying to speak in tongues for the sake of fitting in can open them up to Satan, but genuine, no pressure speaking in tongues can be okay.

 

[snhs]

By the way, if anyone thinks this isn’t “Catholic,” we always close with exposition and benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.

That doesn’t all of a sudden make the whole thing Catholic, nor does it necessarily make it a good thing to be involved with. It wouldn’t be the first time groups had used practices, which are beyond reproach, to allow them to pedal other things which are far more questionable.

 

[FrRJBoyd]

I first attended a Charismatic meeting in 1993, and experienced real growth in my prayer life. I didn’t discover the TLM until after I was in seminary. I never liked the so-called “Charismatic Mass”, which was just another way to ignore the rubrics, but I don’t see anything wrong with the meetings, so long as one is cautious not to let feelings dominate their spiritual lives. Why shouldn’t we praise God with song, hear Scripture read, thank God for the blessings in our lives, ask God for the things we need, and intercede for one another? All of these aspects were characteristic of the prayer meetings I attended. The vast majority of people involved were very much devoted to our Lady and the Eucharist. It was very encouraging to be able to talk with them after the prayer meetings. I see no contradiction between loving the TLM and the charismatic prayer meeting.

BTW, there are three manifestations of the Holy Spirit from Scripture that people usually associate with “speaking in tongues.”

(1) The phenomenon at Pentecost, where the Holy Spirit allowed everyone who heard the Apostles to hear them in their native tongue.

(2) The prophetic tongue, for which St. Paul requires that there be a prophetic translation.

(3) The prayer tongue, which, St. Paul tells us, builds up the spirit but does not necessarily edify the listeners. St. Paul says he speaks in many tongues, angelic and human. He also speaks of a groaning beyond words in which the Holy Spirit prays within us, for we do not know how to pray as we ought. St. Augustine says something similar in his work on the Psalms:

“But look: he gives you a sort of way of singing: don’t look for words by which to describe why you delight in God. Sing with whoops. This is what it means to sing well to God: to sing by whooping. What does this mean? To understand that what is sung in the heart cannot be expressed in words. People who sing, whether during the harvest, or in the vineyards, or in some work they love, begin by expressing their happiness in the words of songs; but then, as if filled with such happiness that they cannot express it in words, they turn from words with syllables and go off into sounds of whooping. A whoop is the sound someone makes to show that the heart is giving birth to something it cannot tell. And whom else does such whooping befit but the un-speakable God. For “un-speakable” means the one whom you cannot speak, and if you cannot speak him, and you must not be silent, what else remains but that you whoop, so that your heart can rejoice without words, and the vast expanse of your joys will not be bounded by the syllables of words. Sing well to him with whoops.” (Augustine, Enar. in. Ps 32-2, 8; PL 36, 283)

This is the kind of prayer tongue most often associated with the Charismatic renewal.

 

[robertaf]

I’m sorry but I don’t see the connection?

Anyway, what did you say? what language was it? did anyone understand you? I am curious, I do not come across many Catholics who claim to have spoken in tongues.

I would ask you if you are opposed to the CCR?
There are a few million Catholics who pray in tongues.
You might be missing out on something.

 

[robertaf]

I have been a Catholic Charismatic since the late 1960’s. I am still Traditional and about as orthodox as Catholics can be.

You do not have to be one or the other.

 

[mercygate]

I have been a Catholic Charismatic since the late 1960’s. I am still Traditional and about as orthodox as Catholics can be.

You do not have to be one or the other.

Why is that so hard to understand?

I have attended ONE charismatic prayer meeting. Nothing but orthodoxy despite my distaste for Assemblies of God type band and a raised eyebrow when it was announced that “now we will pray in tongues” . . . and people went off into soft murmuring. But the phenomenon of a kind of ecstasy of joy in the Holy Spirit, when the heart is about to BURST with the joy of the Lord, is something everybody knows (isn’t it?).

And it can pounce on you at any time. Even in the middle of a Tridentine Latin Mass or in the bathtub.

With the Holyl spirit, ther is no “one OR the other.”

 

[stmaria]

=Deacon Ed B;3592363]You are correct, I do not know what it is that I said. And yes, I was fully awake. As I said in a previous post, when I do pray in tongues I am usually alone, but not always. The gift of interpretation is given to some. Those that I know who have this, and they are few (that I know) do not speak in tongues. I am not saying this is so with all people. I am only saying I don’t know of any who do both. I do not know if this was a human or non human (to use your phrase) language.

How do you know if you were “speaking in tongues” if no one can understand? You said that you did not know what was being said or if the language was human or non- human. In other words you were speaking in "meaningless inarticulate gabble "
If no one can understand what you are saying, how can this be from the Holy Spirit?

Catholic Encyclopedia:." There is enough in St. Paul to show us that the Corinthian peculiarities were ignoble accretions and abuses. They made of “tongues” a source of schism in the Church and of scandal without (14:23). The charism had deteriorated into a mixture of **meaningless inarticulate gabble **(9, 10) with an element of **uncertain sounds ** What today purports to be the “gift of tongues” at certain Protestant revivals is a fair reproduction of Corinthian glossolaly, and shows the need there was in the primitive Church of the Apostle’s counsel to do all things "decently, and according to order

First letter of Paul to the Corinthians-

6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine? 7 Even things without life that give sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction of sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 9 So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue plain speech,** how shall it be known what is said? For you shall be speaking into the air.** 10 There are, for example, so many kinds of tongues in this world; and none is without voice.
11 If then I know not the power of the voice, I shall be to him to whom I speak a barbarian; and he that speaketh, a barbarian to me. 12 So you also, forasmuch as you are zealous of spirits, seek to abound unto the edifying of the church. 13 And therefore he that speaketh by a tongue,** let him pray that he may interpret**. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is without fruit. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing with the spirit, I will sing also with the understanding. "

 

[mercygate]

How do you know if you were “speaking in tongues” if no one can understand? You said that you did not know what was being said or if the language was human or non- human. In other words you were speaking in "meaningless inarticulate gabble "
If no one can understand what you are saying, how can this be from the Holy Spirit?

Charismatic friends have explained this to me by distinguishing between what they call “tongues” in which an actual language is spoken and “tongues” under the more common sub-category of “ecstatic utterance,” which is vocal but not linguistic.

I have never received either gift, but I believe I came close about a year ago: not even trying. It was not in a charismatic worship setting but in a completely orthodox and liturgically sedate Mass, in which I professed life vows in my equally orthodox and liturgically sedate Confraternity. Durng the ceremony the celebrant prayed over me, gently murmuring in ‘tongues’ (ecstatic utterance?), and I felt a flood of joy rising up from my heart, and an urge to praise God aloud. Syllables were forming in my mouth but I remained discreetly silent.

 

[BRB]

"

(1) The phenomenon at Pentecost, where the Holy Spirit allowed everyone who heard the Apostles to hear them in their native tongue.

(.

Are you suggesting the miracle was in the ‘hearing’ by the unbelievers … not in the ‘speaking’ ?

The account of Pentecost in Acts says the Jews were accusing the disciples of being drunk on new wine ? Thus, foreign languages were being spoken … unknown to the some of the Jews present.

 

[BRB]

Durng the ceremony the celebrant prayed over me, gently murmuring in ‘tongues’ (ecstatic utterance?), and I felt a flood of joy rising up from my heart, and an urge to praise God aloud. Syllables were forming in my mouth but I remained discreetly silent.

Are you saying you quenched the spirit ?

Which brings up this point. Can the tongue be controlled …or is it gonna happen spontaneously… in a way that can’t be controlled / quenched ?

 

[mercygate]

Are you saying you quenched the spirit ?

Which brings up this point. Can the tongue be controlled …or is it gonna happen spontaneously… in a way that can’t be controlled / quenched ?

Don’t ask me. I don’t pretend to be charismatic.

But if pressed for an answer concernng quenching the Spirit, I would suggest that God cannot be at war with Himself. Because the Holy Spirit brings Christ to the altar the Mass, I would suggest that the Mass is Charismatic beyond any personal gift of tongues. Paul’s admonition to conduct worship “decently and in order” would prevail.

 

[rwoehmke]

Praying in tongues can be “quenched”. It is not involuntary and the true speaker in tongues is able to control himself. That should not be taken to mean that one may be so filled with joy and praise that the urge becomes nearly irresistable.

Obama’s minister in speaking this week at the NAACP convention in Detroit and to the Press Club today said a real mouthful. We look at those who talk, learn, think differently than we do are our inferiors. We look down upon them. There is a lot of that on these forums as well as a lot of respect as well. Being a Charismatic Catholic is being different, the inferiority is in the mind of the other.

About thirty years ago I joined a group of twelve Catholic Charismatics. They were the “rump” group left in our parish after two hundred and fifty fellow " ecumenical prayer group" members left their local churches or congregations to form a new pentacostal church. They had been meeting in our parish hall.

I was told by Our Lord to join this small remnant and to be their guide in orthodoxy. This small group of twelve shortly grew to about 40 or 50 regular weekly attendees with many others who came and went, but who remained loyal Catholics. The group touched several hundred Catholics both in our parish and others through Life in the Spirit Seminars and joining in our weekly meetings. When I set out to guide them two rules were put into place. The group would always be subject to our pastor and secondly that all teaching would be in agreement with the teachings of our Church and its magisterium. Those who held the leadership positions during those years were always orthodox loyal Catholics, good friends of our priests, and filled with the spirit of charity exhibited by Christians in the early Church.

The group had grown and flourished with one pastor, several assistants and retired priests as members and then gradually withered away. During the twenty plus active years we were the butt of criticism by some parish members and when any ruckus occurred in the parish we would hear "Its the fault of that d**n prayer group which I can witness was never true.

Today many of our past charismatic prayer group members provide the backbone of the lay involvement in our parish serving as catechists, readers, EHMCs, five deacons, and RCIA instructors. On several occasions we were visited by members of a local CUF chapter. I can recall one evening when I gave the teaching and this man from CUF wanted to know,“Who is that priest” He knew most of the priests in our diocese and I was not one of them. I still chuckle over that.

Was I disappointed when it died out as a formal parish organization? Yes to some extent, but than I always knew that like marriage encounter, cursillo, and other movements that it was part of God’s plan to renew his Church and in this instance had served its purpose.

On retreat several years ago, I picked up a book in the retreat house library written in 1937 about the action of the Holy Spirit in the Church. I no longer recall the title or the author, but it read an awful lot like a contemporary depiction of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Charismatics for the most part are not exactly like those who follow Benedict, Francis, or Dominic, but they are just different, not inferior.

 

[FrRJBoyd]

Are you suggesting the miracle was in the ‘hearing’ by the unbelievers … not in the ‘speaking’ ? /QUOTE]

It seems quite possible a little of each was going on. The list of peoples and languages in Acts is extensive, and they said that each heard them in their own native tongue. Yet if there were not other languages being spoken that were not understood, why would they accuse the Apostles of being drunk? What I am suggesting is that this phenomenon was in a category that is distinct, since its purpose was not the exactly the same as either the prophetic tongue or the prayer tongue of which St. Paul writes.

 

[BRB]

BRB;3614873:

I am suggesting is that this phenomenon was in a category that is distinct, since its purpose was not the exactly the same as either the prophetic tongue or the prayer tongue of which St. Paul writes.

That would be my take too. The Church needed such a spiritual momumental big bang … to explode it into existence.

Such outpourings of H.S. were probably very rare in the first century … otherwise Paul and others would of made more mention of it in their writings. And, since Paul says he didn’t find it a top priority gift of his … I doubt we should desire such a gift.

Indeed some of the early believers desired the gift for evil intentions … money making, sensationalistic, magic acts, etc.

 

[rwoehmke]

[Indeed some of the early believers desired the gift for evil intentions … money making, sensationalistic, magic acts, etc.

I think that tongues or glossalia was not the gift sought by folks like Simon Magus.
[/quote]

 

[saint_rafael]

I believe the Charasmatic Movement is a heresy. This movement was introduced into the Church by Penticostals.

The gift of speaking in tongues was a gift for the early Church and Apostolic times.
After the Apostolic age, this gift disappeared.

There is no historical record or evidence of speaking in tongues in the Church in the last 1800 years.
All of a sudden after VII in the 70’s you see and explosion of the holy spirit and speaking in tongues? No what you had was this heresy that was invented by evangelicals in the middle 1800’s.

The holy spirit is active in the seven sacraments of the Church.

Traditonally, the Catholic Church saw speaking in tongues as a manifistation of demonic possesion.