Charismatics? - heeelp!

[jaz1976]

In my experience with charismatics I have found that they are not only pushy with their spirituality, but they are very suggestive as well. They tend to tell people how they are going to react…and guess what? that is how people act.

I find this very disturbing as they ignore the Churches teachings on Gifts of the Holy Spirit and Pauls writings to the Corinthians on the matter. Not all of us have the same gift, and we are not to be jealous of specific ones.

What my biggest fear is that the Charismatic movement is going to lead people right out of the Church because they will rather be with people who have their same spirituality. If this is happens it will be truely sad, as only fools will leave behind the Sacraments for spirituality.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I saw some posts trying to scripturally support praying in tongues. I think it can be phony in some people, but I also believe that it can be a legitimate gift of the Spirit. See Rm 8:26-27 :In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.
27
And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.

I don’t pretend to know everything about the charismatic renewal. But I do know that the Church began with charismatics at the first Pentecost. There is nothing in scripture that indicates this was a one time deal. Furthermore, if we aren’t going to believe in the legitimacy of charisms we will run into trouble with that whole infallibility belief. Lastly, I saw some very encouraging words from Pope JPII on the subject: He said, "I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church. "

Noting that since age 11 he had said a daily prayer to the Holy Spirit he added,

“This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of His action.”

So, to assume that the entire movement is heresy seems a little off considering the Vicar of Christ thought the movement was from the Lord.

At the same time we should also pay attention to what the Vatican II Council has to say about charisms.

“Whether these charisms be very remarkable or more simple and widely diffused, they are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation since they are fitting and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly desired nor is it from them that the fruits of apostolic labors are to be presumptuously expected. Those who have charge over the Church should judge the genuineness and proper use of these gifts, through their office, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit but to test all things and hold fast to what is good (cf. 1 Thes. 5:12, 19- 21). [Lumen Gentium 12]”

 

[francisca]

But here’s my problem:
We’re supposed to receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism and Confirmation, so why do we need this Baptism in the Holy Spirit, why doesn’t God let us have that grace through the sacraments?

1John 5
6 Jesus Christ was acknowledged through WATER, but also through BLOOD. Not only water but WATER AND BLOOD. And THE SPIRIT too, witnesses to Him for the spirit is truth.
7 There are then THREE TESTIMONIES:
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood, and these witnesses AGREE.

Our baptism is a testimony of water. Our daily life is a testimony of Jesus blood. Who give testimony about these? The Holy Spirit in us.

1John5
9 If we accept human testimony, with greater reason must we accept that of God, given in favor of his Son.
10 If you believe in the Son of God, you have GOD’S TESTIMONY IN YOU.
.11 …
12 The one who has The Son has life…

God’s testimony in us is God the Holy Spirit. Whoever believe in the Son has the Holy Spirit who testify (speaks God’s word) in us who is eternal life.

Mark 16

Jesus said

16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved;…
17 SIGNS LIKE THESE will accompany those who have BELIEVED: in My Name they will cast out demons and speak new languages;
18 They will pick up snakes (by bare hands) and, if they drink anything poisonous, they will be unharmed. They will lay their hands on the sick and they will be healed.

 

[rr1213]

Huh. I thought I made a point.

You did. I was responding to the Marine.

 

[Truthstalker]

Let me then complain about charismata and my current dissatisfaction with the theology. One thing is that not everyone does get every gift, contrary to the insistence of some in the charismatic movement that all must speak in tongues. Another is the tendency to get puffed up with spiritual pride and visions, as Paul warned against in Colossians, and a third is that often it seems sensationally driven, gift-focused, self-centered. That is the greatest indictment I have against it right now, and that is the shallowness of the theology. Often the gifts are pointed to almost as an end in themselves and a giftolatry arises. True theology is always Christocentric and exhibits things like humility, faith and love, not spiritual pride, arrogant presumption and judgementalism. But those things are true of disputes besides that of whether one speaks in tongues. Love is greater. Both charismatics and non-charismatics are capable of love; both groups are capable of error. I think Paul would tell us not to be one of Cephas and one of Apollos, one of tongues and one not, and this is a serious questions concerning the fruit of these controversial gifts, and that is the division that arises from their use, often unfortunately due to the spiritual immaturity of those who aggressively promote them.

 

[Todd_Easton]

But here’s my problem:
We’re supposed to receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism and Confirmation, so why do we need this Baptism in the Holy Spirit, why doesn’t God let us have that grace through the sacraments? They have heard this question many times and the standard response is: The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a release of the graces of baptism/confirmation that we already had from the sacraments but were not active due to our lack of faith/openness to the Holy Spirit, since we probably received these sacraments when we didn’t really understand that much. This sounds reasonable at first but it actually confuses me even more, because:

1. Many people convert as adults so they have consciously choosed to follow Christ in the Church and yet when they are baptised/confirmed nothing special happens to them.
2. Pentecostals have the same experience of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (that’s where it started in the 20th century, it came to the Catholic Church from the Protestants) but they often have it even before water baptism and they don’t even have confirmation.

If the Holy Spirit really came in the sacraments, it should be an exception in adult conversions (that is, if someone with no real faith converted) if the person receiving them didn’t experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but it never seems to happen. On the other hand the Spirit seems to come to people frequently before and after the sacraments, indicating that the sacraments don’t really have anything to do with it.

Some of your concerns are addressed by St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica in his discussion of the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation:

Your point #1 seems to be addressed here:
Whether Baptism has an equal effect in all?

Whether insincerity hinders the effect of Baptism?

Your point #2 seems to be addressed here:
Whether the character of Confirmation presupposes of necessity, the baptismal character?

 

[MariaG]

Let me then complain about charismata and my current dissatisfaction with the theology. One thing is that not everyone does get every gift, contrary to the insistence of some in the charismatic movement that all must speak in tongues. Another is the tendency to get puffed up with spiritual pride and visions, as Paul warned against in Colossians, and a third is that often it seems sensationally driven, gift-focused, self-centered. That is the greatest indictment I have against it right now, and that is the shallowness of the theology. Often the gifts are pointed to almost as an end in themselves and a giftolatry arises. True theology is always Christocentric and exhibits things like humility, faith and love, not spiritual pride, arrogant presumption and judgementalism. But those things are true of disputes besides that of whether one speaks in tongues. Love is greater. Both charismatics and non-charismatics are capable of love; both groups are capable of error. I think Paul would tell us not to be one of Cephas and one of Apollos, one of tongues and one not, and this is a serious questions concerning the fruit of these controversial gifts, and that is the division that arises from their use, often unfortunately due to the spiritual immaturity of those who aggressively promote them.

Yes, I agree. And I think it is a shame when Charasmatics become puffed up with pride and non-charasmatics assume it is ALL either satanic or just a big group hallucination or something.

It is sad that the body of Christ can not appreciate it’s own diversity.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[USMC]

I don’t think that is a reasonable readings of Corinthians. Over the years, I’ve also known some very Godly persons who are charismatic and, so, I don’t think that speaking in tongues is diabolical. Not necessarily edifying to the Body, yes, that is what Paul wrote, but perfectly fine under the right circumstances. If there are posters here who are charismatic or who speak in tongues, this would be the place to stop lurking and make your own point because I’m now out of my comfort zone.

I have a lot to say, but don’t have the time to write it right now (since I need to locate a lot of quotes). I will try to respond this evening.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Yes, I agree. And I think it is a shame when Charasmatics become puffed up with pride and non-charasmatics assume it is ALL either satanic or just a big group hallucination or something.

It is sad that the body of Christ can not appreciate it’s own diversity.

God Bless,
Maria

Ditto. Although I have not yet seen a charismatic Catholic puffed up with pride. I’m sure they exist, however.

I have to say that I was never to keen on any of this charismatic “stuff”. Until I was given the opportunity to “rest in the Spirit”. It changed my spiritual outlook completely. And before I’m told that I was fooled by a demon, I will add that as a result of that experience, I pray way more often, I visit the Blessed Sacrament for adoration, I attend Mass more often (not daily yet, but working on it), I go to Confession more frequently, and I thrist for the Word of God. Believe me, I was not brought anywhere but closer to God because of this gift. Pretty good fruit, I think!

 

[MariaG]

Ditto. Although I have not yet seen a charismatic Catholic puffed up with pride. I’m sure they exist, however.

I have to say that I was never to keen on any of this charismatic “stuff”. Until I was given the opportunity to “rest in the Spirit”. It changed my spiritual outlook completely. And before I’m told that I was fooled by a demon, I will add that as a result of that experience, I pray way more often, I visit the Blessed Sacrament for adoration, I attend Mass more often (not daily yet, but working on it), I go to Confession more frequently, and I thrist for the Word of God. Believe me, I was not brought anywhere but closer to God because of this gift. Pretty good fruit, I think!

Not fooled by a demon, don’t you know, you are just highly suggestive and fell into a whole group think that wasn’t real

No, really, I do understand exactly what you mean though. I was highly skeptical, but look at my signature now!

God Bless,
Maria

 

[StHilarious]

I hope someone can help me. I have a huge problem and I can’t find a solution…I attended a weekend meeting with some leaders of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I’ve heard and read about the movement and I’m utterly perplexed. All the charismatics witness to this experience called the Baptism in the Holy Spirit in which you receive the Holy Spirit with power, giving you the whole Christian life as a supernatural gift basically. I believe it is a genuine experience based on all the testimonies and changed lives and the fruits of the experience. Plus it’s just like the experience of the first Christians in the Acts and early Church fathers, the charisms, miracles and all that.

But here’s my problem:
We’re supposed to receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism and Confirmation, so why do we need this Baptism in the Holy Spirit, why doesn’t God let us have that grace through the sacraments? They have heard this question many times and the standard response is: The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a release of the graces of baptism/confirmation that we already had from the sacraments but were not active due to our lack of faith/openness to the Holy Spirit, since we probably received these sacraments when we didn’t really understand that much. This sounds reasonable at first but it actually confuses me even more, because:

1. Many people convert as adults so they have consciously choosed to follow Christ in the Church and yet when they are baptised/confirmed nothing special happens to them.
2. Pentecostals have the same experience of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (that’s where it started in the 20th century, it came to the Catholic Church from the Protestants) but they often have it even before water baptism and they don’t even have confirmation.

If the Holy Spirit really came in the sacraments, it should be an exception in adult conversions (that is, if someone with no real faith converted) if the person receiving them didn’t experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but it never seems to happen. On the other hand the Spirit seems to come to people frequently before and after the sacraments, indicating that the sacraments don’t really have anything to do with it.

Another problem: all the charismatics unanimously say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is meant for ALL, that the charismatic renewal is not a movement meant for some while other spiritualities are meant for others. They say that all people should experience it and continue in their spiritualities. This is a huge problem for me because it follows then that if God really wants to give the Baptism in the Holy Spirit to all, then the only reason for the fact that someone hasn’t experienced it is that they have not opened themselves to the grace of God (this is what the charismatics say). But of course there are many holy souls in the Church, priests, nuns, Opus Dei numeraries, monks, neocatecumenals and whatnot who constantly pray to the Holy Spirit and who let God use them, but still they don’t have the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Thus we must conclude either that the charismatics are wrong in saying that God wants to Baptise all in the Holy Spirit (which the charismatics wouldn’t agree to admit, the Cardinal who has done most to promote the Renewal said it is a serious misunderstanding of the Renewal to think that it’s a movement/meant for only some and not all) which would divide the Church, and which now doesn’t seem possible because the Church endorsed and supports the Charismatic Renewal (even the Papal preacher Raniero Cantalamessa has been Baptised in the Holy Spirit and he says that he has had two lives: one before and one after this Baptism) OR we must admit that the charismatics are really the only Catholics who have truly opened themselves to the grace of the Holy Spirit, which cannot be true.

Another problem: it seems that we must either deny the experience of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (which we cannot do since the Church supports this Renewal and because the experience is evidently genuine, scriptural and from God) or we must say that the sacraments have ceased to work or then we must assume that basically everyone who receives the sacraments receives them without faith. I think all of these are impossible to hold, which leaves the problem unsolved and my mind extremely boggled. I wish I could call the Pope and ask him.

I appreciate your comments!
Thanks!

What were your expectations when you were confirmed?

What was your level of faith when you were confirmed?

 

[francisca]

Let me then complain about charismata and my current dissatisfaction with the theology. One thing is that not everyone does get every gift, contrary to the insistence of some in the charismatic movement that all must speak in tongues. Another is the tendency to get puffed up with spiritual pride and visions, as Paul warned against in Colossians, and a third is that often it seems sensationally driven, gift-focused, self-centered. That is the greatest indictment I have against it right now, and that is the shallowness of the theology. Often the gifts are pointed to almost as an end in themselves and a giftolatry arises.

In Mark 16:17 Jesus told us that to speak in tounge is one of the SIGNS that one has BELIEVED. Why the accusation of spiritual pride?

Some people who don’t get to speak in tounge accuse those who speak as to having problem with spiritual pride. But that’s their own pride they are talking about.

True theology is always Christocentric and exhibits things like humility, faith and love, not spiritual pride, arrogant presumption and judgementalism.

Any prove that charismatic people aren’t christocentric? How about those mariocentric people?

But those things are true of disputes besides that of whether one speaks in tongues.

Yes, and who can judge that?

Love is greater. Both charismatics and non-charismatics are capable of love;

I am sick and tired talking about “how loving we are”. Love is the greatest among all BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE. We love because God has loved us first. And how do we know “God loves me”? If you don’t have the holy spirit to testify about God’s love in you, then you know His love through “theories” only. Those are slogans of religion : “I love God” has become a hype. But those who has God’s testimony in them loves truly because God has loved them first.

both groups are capable of error.

Exactly. So what’s the big deal?

I think Paul would tell us not to be one of Cephas and one of Apollos, one of tongues and one not, and this is a serious questions concerning the fruit of these controversial gifts, and that is the division that arises from their use, often unfortunately due to the spiritual immaturity of those who aggressively promote them.

Have you read Mark 16:17 in my previous post?

Jesus said that those charismatic gifts are SIGNS of those who BELIEVE. Any comment on Jesus comment in Mark 16:17?

 

[francisca]

The biggest problem I see is the Charasmatic Catholic movement has chosen to adopt Protestant terms. Terms that have already been defined in the Catholic Church. And since the definitions of these words differ from Catholic to Protestant, this causes confusion to some extent.

Another problem that many Charasmatic Catholics seem to suffer with is the same problem that charasmatic Christians seem to suffer from and it is the attitude of superiority over all other Christians who have not received the same gifts. (even though scripture tells us we all have different gifts )

But the Charasmatic renewal does have the seal of approval from the Church. Just like with anything else though, you will find pockets of abuse within different areas of the Church.

I know when I have tried to get some Charasmatic Catholics explain what they mean, they end up contradicting Catholic teaching as you have found, mostly I believe, to sloppy terminology.

And although I label myself a “charasmatic Catholic”, there are no Charasmatic Catholic churches even close to my neck of the woods and so I still have been unable to understand and explain their terminology in a way that it makes a cohesive whole to Catholic teachings. But neither have I tried very hard since there are no such churches in my area.

I trust that since it has the seal of approval from the Church that there is a good explanation somewhere that does not contradict Catholic teaching but I do not think that explanation has yet made it’s way to the rank and file of most charasmatic Catholics.

:twocents:

Hello MariaG

I have some quetion regarding your post above.

1. If you say that charismatic people can’t explain what they mean and “they end up contradicting Catholic teaching in their sloppy terminology” then why do you label yourself “charismatic catholic”?
2. While you have “no such church in your area”… In what way that you are “charismatic catholic” as you claim yourself to be?
3. It is a surprise for me that now you claim yourself “charismatic”. Since when?
4. And what are those “protestant terms” you are talking about? Bible passages?

Thanks for your answer and May God bless you.

 

[francisca]

Hello MariaG

I have some quetion regarding your post above.

1. If you say that charismatic people can’t explain what they mean and “they end up contradicting Catholic teaching in their sloppy terminology” then why do you label yourself “charismatic catholic”?
2. While you have “no such church in your area”… In what way that you are “charismatic catholic” as you claim yourself to be?
3. It is a surprise for me that now you claim yourself “charismatic”. Since when?
4. And what are those “protestant terms” you are talking about? Bible passages?

Thanks for your answer and May God bless you.

 

[Truthstalker]

In Mark 16:17 Jesus told us that to speak in tounge is one of the SIGNS that one has BELIEVED. Why the accusation of spiritual pride? These are, if nothing else, things I have found in myself

Some people who don’t get to speak in tounge accuse those who speak as to having problem with spiritual pride. But that’s their own pride they are talking about. True

Any prove that charismatic people aren’t christocentric? How about those mariocentric people? I’m speaking of the theology, not the people

Yes, and who can judge that?

I am sick and tired talking about “how loving we are”. Love is the greatest among all BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE. We love because God has loved us first. And how do we know “God loves me”? If you don’t have the holy spirit to testify about God’s love in you, then you know His love through “theories” only. Those are slogans of religion : “I love God” has become a hype. But those who has God’s testimony in them loves truly because God has loved them first.

Exactly. So what’s the big deal?

Have you read Mark 16:17 in my previous post? Yes

Jesus said that those charismatic gifts are SIGNS of those who BELIEVE. Any comment on Jesus comment in Mark 16:17?

I’ve been speaking in unknown tongues since 1976.

 

[rr1213]

I’ve been speaking in unknown tongues since 1976.

Do you ever know what you are saying? Are there other people to interpret? What does it feel like? Please, I am not being critical, I’m just curious about this. I’ve seen people speak in tongues, but never really had an opportunity to ask.

 

[MariaG]

Hello MariaG

I have some quetion regarding your post above.

1. If you say that charismatic people can’t explain what they mean and “they end up contradicting Catholic teaching in their sloppy terminology” then why do you label yourself “charismatic catholic”?
2. While you have “no such church in your area”… In what way that you are “charismatic catholic” as you claim yourself to be?
3. It is a surprise for me that now you claim yourself “charismatic”. Since when?
4. And what are those “protestant terms” you are talking about? Bible passages?

Thanks for your answer and May God bless you.

Hi Francisca,

Let’s start with #4. The “protestant” terms that I was refering to are Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is used in Catholic teaching to refer to confirmation when we recieve the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This leaves an indelible mark on our soul. the explanations I have heard on this range from outright denial that confirmation is actually the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (on these forums a long while ago), to explanations that are incomplete and leave one wanting as this thread so clearly shows.

IF the explanation is that when one is baptized by the Holy Spirit but as in acts, Peter and another apostle had to come and “lay on hands” because the gifts were not manifest, that would make sense to me. But I have yet to hear it put in a biblical sense much less referencing the Catechism of the CAtholic Church all in a cohesive whole.

I also feel that refering to when the gifts become manifest the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” somehow denies that they were baptized in the first place during confirmation. Scripture may in fact refer to it that way also. But this “feeling” is often why others deny the charasmatic movement as this seeming dichotomy is not explained well enough.

#3 It is a surprise that the Holy Spirit can give His gifts where He wills even if the person does not attend a Charasmatic Catholic church?

#2 Claim to be? I disagree and criticize the lack of explainability from Catholic teachings like the Catechism by Charasmatic Catholics and now I am “claiming” to be?

The Holy Spirit has seen fit to gift me with the gift of tongues.

Of course that is only my “claim” so you are free to disagree since you are all but accusing me of being a liar.

#1 Because I am. Many Catholics cannot explain cohesively many things including the Eucharist yet they still claim to be Catholic and profess a belief in the Real Presence of Christ.

The only way to change things is to first acknowledge there is a problem. The problem with Charasmatics Catholics is the lack of ability as a whole to explain things using terminolgy that is commonly understood and defined by other Catholics and referencing the Catechism of the Catholic Church and scripture.

This lack weakens its position and makes Catholics who are willing to accept it because it has been approved by the leadership of the Church less likely willing to fully embrace its concepts. And because the Holy Spirit does not push Himself on people, these people may be losing out on further gifts of the Spirit due to the lack.

I also realize writing this that even though I have avoided this since there are no Charasmatic churches in my area, I need to find the explanation of this, referencing the Catechism and scripture because I see the lack in this. I have failed up to this point but since I DO SEE the problem instead of getting defensive, I also see now that I need to address my lack in this area also.

For this lack, I humbly apologize to the Holy Spirit and will study and work at being able to explain this fully using scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church in order to clear up misunderstandings of others.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I’ve been speaking in unknown tongues since 1976.

Looks like you and I need to start studying and trying to explain this approved movement in a systematic way using scripture and the Catechism. There must be an systematic explanation out there but I have yet to see it here on these forums.

I am sure glad you are here because I doubt you will stop searching for this to be explained in a cohesive way. I think your new name should have been “Dog with a bone” because you just don’t let things go

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Looks like you and I need to start studying and trying to explain this approved movement in a systematic way using scripture and the Catechism. There must be an systematic explanation out there but I have yet to see it here on these forums.

I am sure glad you are here because I doubt you will stop searching for this to be explained in a cohesive way. I think your new name should have been “Dog with a bone” because you just don’t let things go

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

For example, I have wondered at Christians who recieve the gift of tongues but are not Catholic and have not recieved confirmation which is one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

This explanation from the above link:tiphat: helps me understand this a little better.

from New Advent
Whether the character of Confirmation presupposes of necessity, the baptismal character?

Reply to Objection 1. The Divine power is not confined to the sacraments. **Hence man can receive spiritual strength to confess the Faith of Christ publicly, without receiving the sacrament **of Confirmation: just as he can also receive remission of sins without Baptism. Yet, just as none receive the effect of Baptism without the desire of Baptism; so none receive the effect of Confirmation, without the desire of Confirmation. And man can have this even before receiving Baptism.

Reply to objection 3. Those who heard the preaching of Peter received the effect of Confirmation miraculously: but not the sacrament of Confirmation. Now it has been stated (ad 1) that the effect of Confirmation can be bestowed on man before Baptism, whereas the sacrament cannot. For just as the effect of Confirmation, which is spiritual strength, presupposes the effect of Baptism, which is justification, so the sacrament of Confirmation presupposes the sacrament of Baptism.

 

[Carrie_Andrews]

When I was at a charismatic rally at Scanton U. in August one of the speakers was Maria Vadia. I got 2 of her books that really explain the call of the charismatic Christian. One is called “An Arrow in His Hand”, it explains intercessory prayer and how to really be a warrior for Christ. I don’t see any internet info on the publisher, but it’s published by Queenship publishing company order #3078 P.O. box 220 Goleta, CA 93116. I leant out the other book I got by her, and don’t recall the name, but it lays out how to live a deep, spiritual, Catholic life.
They prayed in tongues at the rally and the thing I noticed is it’s very controlled, they don’t just start yelling out in the middle of Mass or anything. The leader says something like “Let us pray” and all who have a gift of tongues and are moved to, pray out loud and all seem to stop at the same time. Then a group of maybe 5 people interpret what was being prayed for.
I’ve been to several rallys and always come away feeling confirmed in my faith beliefs. I also feel as though I’m being recharged somehow and want to go out proclaiming the gospel.