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MariaG
Guest
Thanks for the information. I’ll try to get ahold of this book to see if it will help me explain to other Catholics what I know to be a truly miraculous working of the Holy Spirit.
God Bless,
Maria
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God Bless,
Maria
C
Carrie_Andrews
Guest
I did find Queenship publishings address queenship.org/index.cfm
Looks like a great source of information!!!
Looks like a great source of information!!!
T
Truthstalker
Guest
Well, I’m going to let this one go for now, because once again I start muttering “I’ve got to read Aquinas.” I have seen the critique of the charismatic movement where people state that the experiences are not derived organically from Catholic theology but seem to be an alien importation. I do not know how valid this is.Looks like you and I need to start studying and trying to explain this approved movement in a systematic way using scripture and the Catechism. There must be an systematic explanation out there but I have yet to see it here on these forums.
I am sure glad you are here because I doubt you will stop searching for this to be explained in a cohesive way. I think your new name should have been “Dog with a bone” because you just don’t let things go
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
The focus on subjective experiences rather than objective conditions is problematic as is a possible “reverse engineering” of the experience to make it fit into Catholic theology rather than the experiences being derived from and founded on Catholic theology. I’ve got other issues I have got to work through and by the time I get to this one, it may not be an issue.
Some of the charismata have always been with the Church: administration, prophecy, healing, faith. It may be that the charismatics outside the CC simply found something that has been Catholic all along, just sort of forgotten. And so I speculate that if it is rightly integrated into Catholic theology, the depths and power and experiences of the proper use of the gifts, as supported and used by the Catholic Church, will be analogous to the contrast between receiving the Lord in the Eucharist and a flat, symbolic Communion service using crackers and grape juice. When Catholics get a hold of the charismatic gifts the way they are meant to be used, what the Protestants are doing will be pale in comparison. The Catholic Charismatic renewal is in its childhood. I’ll leave it at that.
T
Truthstalker
Guest
Sometimes I ask for an interpretation. Usually I pray under my breath, sometimes walking along. I’ve been at prayer meetings where lots of people pray in tongues really loudly and no one interprets. It’s expected as part of the meeting and since the leader of meeting directs when to start and stop, it isn’t really out of order. A stranger walking in would agree those people are nuts, as Paul would point out.
The feelings vary. Sometimes there is nothing, sometimes a kind of warm and tingling feeling, sometimes peace, sometimes a real sense of the presence of the Lord.
Concerning interpretation, sometimes I know it then, sometimes something dawns on me later or hits me, an insight or something that I hadn’t realized. Some tongues are praise. Earlier today I prayed in tongues about how to respond to your questions. This is the kind of thing I get when I get an interpretation of private tongues: Jesus I praise you, I worship you, your name is most high, I exalt and lift you up, you are the king of kings, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, sustainer and creator and redeemer and friend, O my Lord and my God, I worship you, I give you praise, blessed is your name now and forever and ever, I will praise you forever, my life is yours, I yield to you, faithful friend and redeemer, king, lord, ruler of my life. (This isn’t an actual interpretation, just a sample and it would go a lot longer in the same vein).
Prophecy and public tongues are different and should have their own threads.
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rr1213
Guest
Thanks for responding. I would think based on Corinthians that you would always want an interpretation, but this is not something I know much about. What’s the difference between private and public tongues?
M
MariaG
Guest
Yes, I have read these also. I am not sure if I have not truly delved into it because I am afraid that my “subjective” experience will be invalidated or just laziness and more important things on my “to do and read” list.
But I have realized through this thread that it is now time for me to get this straight in my mind at least.
God Bless and may God shine wisdom and understanding upon you as you delve into Thomas Aquinas.
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
T
Truthstalker
Guest
Private: for me (may be edifying without interpretation).
Public: for other people. Should be interpretated, is subject to all requirements concerning church order, etc.; the interpretation should be tested for soundness, etc.
This is “standard” charismatic theology stuff. How well it fits in with Catholic thought I have no idea aside from USMC’s posting above.
I understand that Francis Xavier miraculously learned a language on his way to a country so he could speak it when he got there. China? Is there any truth to that?
F
francisca
Guest
O wow, senior tounge speaker.
I bet you can judge whether some people are faking it, cause you are a senior tounge speaker.
I get it now.
T
Truthstalker
Guest
Not at all.
R
rr1213
Guest
…and this post adds to the discussion how…?
K
kevb
Guest
This is just my personal opinion based on critiques I’ve read and happen to agree with. I think it’s highly dangerous. I think people are seeking to “feel” and experience phenomena instead of focusing on the Eucharist in reverence. As Catholics, we already possess the means to experience intimacy with Christ beyond all imagination through the Holy Eucharist. How aware we are of that intimate union and the grace that we receive during Communion is dependent on our proper dispostition and level of holiness in receiving. There’s no need to “renew” anything in our Church because we already have most perfect and complete Faith possible. Catholicism also isn’t about getting your spiritual satisfaction. It’s about the Cross. It’s about humility and charity and being poor in spirit. Anyone one of us who isn’t “getting” what they want out of it, probably isn’t giving enough ourselves yet.
There are no shortcuts, methods, or fads that will get us there any faster. Nothing but hard labor in developing ourselves morally and practicing virtue and God’s grace will save us. Charismatic spirituality for these reasons strikes me as being an emotional and psychic phenomenon, a bit similar to seances, where people who seek spiritual experiences let their inhibitions fall away. They feel a sense of liberation, exhilaration, and a very real “high” caused by this exciting shared experience. This “high” is not the Holy Spirit, but a cheap imitation caused by a mixture of psychic and psychological factors, and possibly enhanced by demonic activity. If someone has never felt the actual presence of the Holy Spirit, and experiences this sort of “high” first, they could easily be deceived. Because people… especially spiritually immature people, will always trust their own judgement and discernment far too much. Just because a feeling or experience is very real, doesn’t mean it comes from God. Like I said though, that’s just my opinion.
There are no shortcuts, methods, or fads that will get us there any faster. Nothing but hard labor in developing ourselves morally and practicing virtue and God’s grace will save us. Charismatic spirituality for these reasons strikes me as being an emotional and psychic phenomenon, a bit similar to seances, where people who seek spiritual experiences let their inhibitions fall away. They feel a sense of liberation, exhilaration, and a very real “high” caused by this exciting shared experience. This “high” is not the Holy Spirit, but a cheap imitation caused by a mixture of psychic and psychological factors, and possibly enhanced by demonic activity. If someone has never felt the actual presence of the Holy Spirit, and experiences this sort of “high” first, they could easily be deceived. Because people… especially spiritually immature people, will always trust their own judgement and discernment far too much. Just because a feeling or experience is very real, doesn’t mean it comes from God. Like I said though, that’s just my opinion.
M
MariaG
Guest
There are many false assumptions in this post.This is just my personal opinion based on critiques I’ve read and happen to agree with. I think it’s highly dangerous. I think people are seeking to “feel” and experience phenomena instead of focusing on the Eucharist in reverence. As Catholics, we already possess the means to experience intimacy with Christ beyond all imagination through the Holy Eucharist. How aware we are of that intimate union and the grace that we receive during Communion is dependent on our proper dispostition and level of holiness in receiving. There’s no need to “renew” anything in our Church because we already have most perfect and complete Faith possible. Catholicism also isn’t about getting your spiritual satisfaction. It’s about the Cross. It’s about humility and charity and being poor in spirit. Anyone one of us who isn’t “getting” what they want out of it, probably isn’t giving enough ourselves yet.
There are no shortcuts, methods, or fads that will get us there any faster. Nothing but hard labor in developing ourselves morally and practicing virtue and God’s grace will save us. Charismatic spirituality for these reasons strikes me as being an emotional and psychic phenomenon, a bit similar to seances, where people who seek spiritual experiences let their inhibitions fall away. They feel a sense of liberation, exhilaration, and a very real “high” caused by this exciting shared experience. This “high” is not the Holy Spirit, but a cheap imitation caused by a mixture of psychic and psychological factors, and possibly enhanced by demonic activity. If someone has never felt the actual presence of the Holy Spirit, and experiences this sort of “high” first, they could easily be deceived. Because people… especially spiritually immature people, will always trust their own judgement and discernment far too much. Just because a feeling or experience is very real, doesn’t mean it comes from God. Like I said though, that’s just my opinion.
First thing you appear to ignore is that the Charasmatic renewal was approved by the leadership of the Catholic Church.
Second, you assume that the charasmatic Catholic is no longer focusing on the Eucharist. You are completely wrong on this. The focus on Christ is in fact greater.
Your belief that there is no need for renewal in our church is in direct contradiction to late Pope JPII who felt the church was in serious need of renewal and believed the Charasmatic Catholics were part of that renewal.
Charasmatics are not about “getting” anything out of it. It is about giving. And sometimes receiving back.
What Charasmatic strikes you as is as subjective as what you are accusing Charasmatics of. And in direct contradiction to the approval and leadership of the Church whom did not share your opinion. You of course are free to believe that Pope JPII was wrong on this issue and trust your own opinion on this matter. Realizing of course that when you say the things you do (“a cheap imitation caused by a mixture of psychic and psychological factors, and possibly enhanced by demonic activity”) , people like me find it highly insulting not only to our intelligence but also to our faith.
God Bless,
Maria
M
MariaG
Guest
And here is the sad truth about this situation.
Charasmatics like me who believe that the Charasmatic movement has done a poor job of explaining it in Catholic terms acceptable to non-Charasmatic Catholics getting slammed by Charasmatics who want to know “since when” I considered myself Charasmatic as I “claim” to be.
And ignorant people like the previous poster who feel it is all in my head or part of demonic activity contrary to the opinion of the former leadership of the Catholic church.
And people wonder why more charasmatics don’t speak out on these forums?
Charasmatics like me who believe that the Charasmatic movement has done a poor job of explaining it in Catholic terms acceptable to non-Charasmatic Catholics getting slammed by Charasmatics who want to know “since when” I considered myself Charasmatic as I “claim” to be.
And ignorant people like the previous poster who feel it is all in my head or part of demonic activity contrary to the opinion of the former leadership of the Catholic church.
And people wonder why more charasmatics don’t speak out on these forums?
R
rr1213
Guest
So you catch it from Protestants because you’re Catholic, Catholics because you are charismatic, and Charismatics because you are Catholic…? Sounds like a vicious circle to me and I’m neither Catholic nor Charismatic. Sometimes I’m not sure that I am Protestant either.And here is the sad truth about this situation.
Charasmatics like me who believe that the Charasmatic movement has done a poor job of explaining it in Catholic terms acceptable to non-Charasmatic Catholics getting slammed by Charasmatics who want to know “since when” I considered myself Charasmatic as I “claim” to be.
And ignorant people like the previous poster who feel it is all in my head or part of demonic activity contrary to the opinion of the former leadership of the Catholic church.
M
MariaG
Guest
Yup. You got it all the way around. I was a fundamental Protestant so many of my friends don’t think I am Christian anymore. Chomp. Chomp. Spit me out.So you catch it from Protestants because you’re Catholic, Catholics because you are charismatic, and Charismatics because you are Catholic…? Sounds like a vicious circle to me and I’m neither Catholic nor Charismatic. Sometimes I’m not sure that I am Protestant either.
And I have to say, that the way you talk, and if you sick around here long enough, you DEFINITELY won’t be Protestant anymore
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
K
kevb
Guest
I’m not accusing Charismatics of being anything but well meaning people who are possibly lacking sober spiritual discernment. We’re talking about a movement which is entirely centered on private revelation and which exhibits behavior outside the ordinary Catholic experience. Any time supernatural phenomena is happening on a regular basis, there is cause for careful scrutiny. It’s our duty and obligation as Catholics to question. St. John of the Cross taught that we should reject visions that we receive for this reason. God would be pleased that we test the spirits.
I don’t believe the Church has made their official positiion known one way or the other on this movement. As for our beloved Holy Father Pope John Paul, is it possible he wasn’t fully of aware all the details of this movement? I’m not trying to insult anyone, I’m only speculating out of sincere concern about people’s spiritual welfare by doing my duty and being scrupulous. It was not intended to be a personal attack. Sorry if you interpreted it that way. Peace be with you.
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rr1213
Guest
I don’t know, we’ll have to see about that one.And I have to say, that the way you talk, and if you sick around here long enough, you DEFINITELY won’t be Protestant anymore
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
T
Truthstalker
Guest
Oh, BROTHER!
I read an article from a Protestant indicting the charismatic movement because Catholics involved in it become more Catholic, so clearly something must be wrong with it. They love God more, Mary more, the Eucharist more, the sacraments more; they attend Mass more and in general are more Catholic. This, according to that author, indicates something is seriously wrong with the Catholic charismatic movement and clearly is not of God. God would only lead them out of the Catholic church, so this clearly cannot be God at work.
And now from Catholics I read that it is too Protestant, that it stems from Protestants and is suspect because of its origins, that it is seducing these gullible Catholics and leading them astray.
I guess that is its purpose - to unify the body of Christ. The fundamentalist Protestants and the non-charismatic Catholics will unite and we will be One - in hating the charismata. One group will hate it because it makes Catholics too Catholic and the other that it makes them too Protestant. Yeah, right. This reminds me of Chesterton’s observation about the Church: it was attacked on one hand for one set of traits, and on the other hand for not having those traits. Charismatics are attacked for being too Catholic on one hand, and not being Catholic enough on the other. They are attacked for seeking God, and then attacked when they find Him. They are attacked for committing their lives to Him, and then blasted when they follow through on that commitment. They are attacked for seeking God’s will, and then attacked when they think they have found it. They may not seek visions but have them anyway, and if they sense Christ in the Eucharist they are suspect. Blind faith is better, I suppose, and to walk through life in a grey denial and fear of ever actually experiencing God in a sensory way, because that is somehow superior, and anyone who actually desires to know God is automatically suspect. “Shut up and sit down, Jesus,” they seem to say,“You are done talking and we will not let you speak, you are sitting on your throne and we will not allow you to leave it.” Christ as the prisoner of the church, not the Lord, is the attitude I sense sometimes from those who refuse to let the Lord move in their lives in the way He desires. This is based on what they write, by the way. I cannot read their hearts but neither can they read mine. However, some are adamant about being able to judge my spiritual condition.
If Christ desires to manifest Himself in the church in a spectacular way, some would get angry. I sometimes wonder if some will be very angry at the idea of actually seeing God, because they would rather live by faith than by sight and never come to Reality.
I read an article from a Protestant indicting the charismatic movement because Catholics involved in it become more Catholic, so clearly something must be wrong with it. They love God more, Mary more, the Eucharist more, the sacraments more; they attend Mass more and in general are more Catholic. This, according to that author, indicates something is seriously wrong with the Catholic charismatic movement and clearly is not of God. God would only lead them out of the Catholic church, so this clearly cannot be God at work.
And now from Catholics I read that it is too Protestant, that it stems from Protestants and is suspect because of its origins, that it is seducing these gullible Catholics and leading them astray.
I guess that is its purpose - to unify the body of Christ. The fundamentalist Protestants and the non-charismatic Catholics will unite and we will be One - in hating the charismata. One group will hate it because it makes Catholics too Catholic and the other that it makes them too Protestant. Yeah, right. This reminds me of Chesterton’s observation about the Church: it was attacked on one hand for one set of traits, and on the other hand for not having those traits. Charismatics are attacked for being too Catholic on one hand, and not being Catholic enough on the other. They are attacked for seeking God, and then attacked when they find Him. They are attacked for committing their lives to Him, and then blasted when they follow through on that commitment. They are attacked for seeking God’s will, and then attacked when they think they have found it. They may not seek visions but have them anyway, and if they sense Christ in the Eucharist they are suspect. Blind faith is better, I suppose, and to walk through life in a grey denial and fear of ever actually experiencing God in a sensory way, because that is somehow superior, and anyone who actually desires to know God is automatically suspect. “Shut up and sit down, Jesus,” they seem to say,“You are done talking and we will not let you speak, you are sitting on your throne and we will not allow you to leave it.” Christ as the prisoner of the church, not the Lord, is the attitude I sense sometimes from those who refuse to let the Lord move in their lives in the way He desires. This is based on what they write, by the way. I cannot read their hearts but neither can they read mine. However, some are adamant about being able to judge my spiritual condition.
If Christ desires to manifest Himself in the church in a spectacular way, some would get angry. I sometimes wonder if some will be very angry at the idea of actually seeing God, because they would rather live by faith than by sight and never come to Reality.
K
kevb
Guest
You should also take time to consider this. Would a response like yours which is a somewhat harsh and emotionally charged personal attack come from someone who has truly been baptized in the Holy Spirit? That’s not meant to be an insult either, but something to truly meditate on.And here is the sad truth about this situation.
Charasmatics like me who believe that the Charasmatic movement has done a poor job of explaining it in Catholic terms acceptable to non-Charasmatic Catholics getting slammed by Charasmatics who want to know “since when” I considered myself Charasmatic as I “claim” to be.
And ignorant people like the previous poster who feel it is all in my head or part of demonic activity contrary to the opinion of the former leadership of the Catholic church.
K
kevb
Guest
Once again, what you perceive as being attack, I intended as scrupulous concern. I’m going by the teachings of the Saints who if they did experience such divine gifts, would desperately try to hide them from others for fear of others noticing their sanctity. People who consider themselves to be prophetic and in the possesion of divine gifts and revelation are exhibiting the opposite behaviour in my opinion. You’re right, I can’t read hearts and I’m only speculating based on what I observe.
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