Charismatics? - heeelp!

[MariaG]

. They feel a sense of liberation, exhilaration, and a very real “high” caused by this exciting shared experience. This “high” is not the Holy Spirit, but a cheap imitation caused by a mixture of psychic and psychological factors, and possibly enhanced by demonic activity. If someone has never felt the actual presence of the Holy Spirit, and experiences this sort of “high” first, they could easily be deceived. Because people… especially spiritually immature people, will always trust their own judgement and discernment far too much. Just because a feeling or experience is very real, doesn’t mean it comes from God. Like I said though, that’s just my opinion.

I’m not accusing Charismatics of being anything but well meaning people who are possibly lacking sober spiritual discernment. We’re talking about a movement which is entirely centered on private revelation and which exhibits behavior outside the ordinary Catholic experience. Any time supernatural phenomena is happening on a regular basis, there is cause for careful scrutiny. It’s our duty and obligation as Catholics to question. St. John of the Cross taught that we should reject visions that we receive for this reason. God would be pleased that we test the spirits.
I don’t believe the Church has made their official positiion known one way or the other on this movement. As for our beloved Holy Father Pope John Paul, is it possible he wasn’t fully of aware all the details of this movement? I’m not trying to insult anyone, I’m only speculating out of sincere concern about people’s spiritual welfare by doing my duty and being scrupulous. It was not intended to be a personal attack. Sorry if you interpreted it that way. Peace be with you.

You should also take time to consider this. Would a response like yours which is a somewhat harsh and emotionally charged personal attack come from someone who has truly been baptized in the Holy Spirit? That’s not meant to be an insult either, but something to truly meditate on.

Once again, what you perceive as being attack, I intended as scrupulous concern. I’m going by the teachings of the Saints who if they did experience such divine gifts, would desperately try to hide them from others for fear of others noticing their sanctity. People who consider themselves to be prophetic and in the possesion of divine gifts and revelation are exhibiting the opposite behaviour in my opinion. You’re right, I can’t read hearts and I’m only speculating based on what I observe.

Respectfully, while I do understand what you state may be true and do so out of concern, I find it difficult to believe that you cannot see the insult in your comments, and from my point of view, the ignorance as well.
Ignorant-
1.lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man. 2.lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics. 3.uninformed; unaware. 4.due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

The fact is that you percieve a personal attack when none was made. I did not percieve what you said as a personal attack, I saw it for what it was, ignorance. And called it such. Did I find your comments insulting. Yes. Personally attacked by them no, for I know you speak from ignorance.

I concede I could have “softened” my words and called what you said as lack of knowledge. But ignorance is what it is and that is what I said. If you do not like how that sounds, I suggest you educate yourself on this matter. It was not meant as an attack but as truth.

Yet I must question your judgement. If you think calling someone ignorant is an attack, what do you call saying someone is lacking spiritual discernment? demonic activity? pschological and psychic factors?

Certainly I will concede that you may have *felt *attacked by calling you ignorant on this matter if you wish but you must then admit that what you said was also an attack, (although I did not take them as such but just took them for what they were, lack of knowledge also known as ignorance).

If you wish to correct your lack of knowledge, here are a few links below.

Is the Charismatic Renewal Catholic? by Cruz Romero
**
*Grace For The New Springtime *A Statement from
the United States Catholic Conference of Bishops
on the Charismatic Renewal

Pope John Paul II speaks

God Bless,
Maria

 

[kevb]

Respectfully, while I do understand what you state may be true and do so out of concern, I find it difficult to believe that you cannot see the insult in your comments, and from my point of view, the ignorance as well.
Ignorant-
1.lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man. 2.lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics. 3.uninformed; unaware. 4.due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

The fact is that you percieve a personal attack when none was made. I did not percieve what you said as a personal attack, I saw it for what it was, ignorance. And called it such. Did I find your comments insulting. Yes. Personally attacked by them no, for I know you speak from ignorance.

I concede I could have “softened” my words and called what you said as lack of knowledge. But ignorance is what it is and that is what I said. If you do not like how that sounds, I suggest you educate yourself on this matter. It was not meant as an attack but as truth.

Yet I must question your judgement. If you think calling someone ignorant is an attack, what do you call saying someone is lacking spiritual discernment? demonic activity? pschological and psychic factors?

Certainly I will concede that you may have *felt *attacked by calling you ignorant on this matter if you wish but you must then admit that what you said was also an attack, (although I did not take them as such but just took them for what they were, lack of knowledge also known as ignorance).

If you wish to correct your lack of knowledge, here are a few links below.

Is the Charismatic Renewal Catholic? by Cruz Romero
**
*Grace For The New Springtime *A Statement from
the United States Catholic Conference of Bishops
on the Charismatic Renewal

Pope John Paul II speaks

God Bless,
Maria

Maria, I agree that I may be ignorant. It’s possible I’m reading something into it that isn’t there. Perhaps I have an exagerated view of what it’s all about. You also made a good point that many of my remarks might have come across as insensitive. And if both our recent Popes have approved of this, I concede. It must just be over my head.
Maybe you can help me understand. From what I know about the ways of the Saints, they had a very common tendency to hide their spiritual gifts. They were given these gifts by God because of their profound sanctity and moral perfection. So why are there so many people today claiming to have gifts of prophecy, toungues, etc who show little in the ways of simple virtues like patience, meekness, and so forth? In fact, it seems most everyone in these services displays some gift. I’m just wondering why even many of the Saints were not given such gifts, but anyone of us can just go and have hands laid on us by a lay person and receive such profound power?

 

[MariaG]

Maria, I agree that I may be ignorant. It’s possible I’m reading something into it that isn’t there. Perhaps I have an exagerated view of what it’s all about. You also made a good point that many of my remarks might have come across as insensitive. And if both our recent Popes have approved of this, I concede. It must just be over my head.
Maybe you can help me understand. From what I know about the ways of the Saints, they had a very common tendency to hide their spiritual gifts. They were given these gifts by God because of their profound sanctity and moral perfection. So why are there so many people today claiming to have gifts of prophecy, toungues, etc who show little in the ways of simple virtues like patience, meekness, and so forth? In fact, it seems most everyone in these services displays some gift. I’m just wondering why even many of the Saints were not given such gifts, but anyone of us can just go and have hands laid on us by a lay person and receive such profound power?

In my experience, few display the gift of prophecy. As for why do so many exhibit the gift of tongue, several reasons could be possible.

Just as we can see in Scripture in Corithians, it seems as spiritually immature people either are given the gift of tongues, or it is also possible pretend to have the gift of tongues. Since I do not judge what someone else may or may not have, but I can point to Scripture and we can see that clearly many had the gift of tongues, but they were also very spiritually immature. It is on of the “least” of the gifts that is used for personal edification.

Surely God wishes that each individual is personally edified which may be why so many have this one.

As for the fact that it is just any lay person, I do not have intimate knowledge of this. I too would doubt that *any *lay person could do it, but I do not doubt that there ARE lay people that can do it. An argument in favor is we are all called to a common priesthood. But on this issue, it is I who speaks from ignorance. I don’t really know. And I would imagine this could vary from Church to church, some doing things “correctly” and others not. We have abuses in many things, so I do not doubt things could be done “wrong” in this also. But again, I do not know what is “wrong” in the laying on of hands or what is proscribed by the Church. It is one of the things I have started to research.

And as I said, the speaking of tongues is not actually a “profound” power, but one of the least of the gifts of the Spirit.

1cor 12.27-31 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? 30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.

What follows is the exposition of Love. Love being the greatest gift of all.

Today what I believe we see in the Charasmatic movement is in some areas, very similar to what we see in Corithians as Paul was preaching. Immature Christians wanted the “flashy” gifts. But the greatest gift of all is Love. That may be the biggest reason we do not see these gifts (at least openly) in our greatest saints. As the models of Christian living, they would be more likely to manifest the greatest gift of all which would be love.

Peace and God bless,
Maria

 

[kevb]

In my experience, few display the gift of prophecy. As for why do so many exhibit the gift of tongue, several reasons could be possible.

Just as we can see in Scripture in Corithians, it seems as spiritually immature people either are given the gift of tongues, or it is also possible pretend to have the gift of tongues. Since I do not judge what someone else may or may not have, but I can point to Scripture and we can see that clearly many had the gift of tongues, but they were also very spiritually immature. It is on of the “least” of the gifts that is used for personal edification.

Surely God wishes that each individual is personally edified which may be why so many have this one.

As for the fact that it is just any lay person, I do not have intimate knowledge of this. I too would doubt that *any *lay person could do it, but I do not doubt that there ARE lay people that can do it. An argument in favor is we are all called to a common priesthood. But on this issue, it is I who speaks from ignorance. I don’t really know. And I would imagine this could vary from Church to church, some doing things “correctly” and others not. We have abuses in many things, so I do not doubt things could be done “wrong” in this also. But again, I do not know what is “wrong” in the laying on of hands or what is proscribed by the Church. It is one of the things I have started to research.

And as I said, the speaking of tongues is not actually a “profound” power, but one of the least of the gifts of the Spirit.

1cor 12.27-31 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? 30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.

What follows is the exposition of Love. Love being the greatest gift of all.

Today what I believe we see in the Charasmatic movement is in some areas, very similar to what we see in Corithians as Paul was preaching. Immature Christians wanted the “flashy” gifts. But the greatest gift of all is Love. That may be the biggest reason we do not see these gifts (at least openly) in our greatest saints. As the models of Christian living, they would be more likely to manifest the greatest gift of all which would be love.

Peace and God bless,
Maria

It will be interesting to see how the Church’s theology experts will adapt to this movement. In 2000 years and thousands of canonized Saints, I can’t think of any who spoke in tongues in this manner, or had fits of hysterical laughter, or shook violently in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament as some do in this movement. It seems we are now being encouraged to trust our insticts with regards to private revelation and supernatural experience. This seems to me to be the opposite of the way it’s been up to this point. I could be mistaken. I suppose if this movement starts producing canonized Saints, I won’t be able to question it. Thanks for your kind response

 

[Truthstalker]

Once again, what you perceive as being attack, I intended as scrupulous concern. I’m going by the teachings of the Saints who if they did experience such divine gifts, would desperately try to hide them from others for fear of others noticing their sanctity. People who consider themselves to be prophetic and in the possesion of divine gifts and revelation are exhibiting the opposite behaviour in my opinion. You’re right, I can’t read hearts and I’m only speculating based on what I observe.

Sorry. I get sniper fire from both sides of the Tiber and anything that sounds like a bullet gets me feeling defensive. I do, however, appreciate your concern. There are gifts that are, by their nature, to be used publicly: the gift a priest is giving, of the ability to perform sacramentally, is one that by its very nature must be public, for example. The public use of prophecy or preaching is another: God intends for people to hear His message, and by its nature the gift must be public.

Just as with the possible dichotomy between a priest’s ability to perform a sanctity while in a state of mortal sin, spiritual gifts can be used without it being a reflection on the sanctity of the one holding the gift. In Matthew 7 we see the contrast between some who use the power gifts and those who know Jesus. Yet we also know the apostles worked miracles of healing, cast out evil spirits, and performed other works supernaturally. To be able to pray for the sick and have them healed is no reflection on the one praying, but rather on the giver of the gift; Christ. Some have erred in this way and credited themselves with the gift due to their own sanctity, or are respected because God gave them a gift. But as with all gifts, we should instead grow more humble and realize it is God at work, and that we should, with John the Baptist, decrease that He might increase.

For someone to have a legitimate gift from the Lord and not use it is to be a poor steward, is to bury a talent in the ground. “I am not worthy to receive such a gift, so I will not use it” is the wrong attitude. “I will use it in humility and trust of God” is much more likely to bring a ten-fold return. The assumption that use of the gifts is equivalent to spiritual pride is fallacious.

I think the stigmata are another issue, which I am not sure how to approach. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, I haven’t thought through all the issues here.

 

[MariaG]

I think the stigmata are another issue, which I am not sure how to approach. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, I haven’t thought through all the issues here.

Yes, I have had conversations with Eastern Orthodox that sound very similar to the these ones.

IF stigmata were a actual thing, why don’t we see it in scripture, why isn’t it talked about by the early Church. etc.

Visible manifestations of the Holy Spirit can make people uncomfortable.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

It will be interesting to see how the Church’s theology experts will adapt to this movement. In 2000 years and thousands of canonized Saints, I can’t think of any who spoke in tongues in this manner, or had fits of hysterical laughter, or shook violently in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament as some do in this movement. It seems we are now being encouraged to trust our insticts with regards to private revelation and supernatural experience. This seems to me to be the opposite of the way it’s been up to this point. I could be mistaken. I suppose if this movement starts producing canonized Saints, I won’t be able to question it. Thanks for your kind response

Yes it will be interesting.

Also, these conversations have spurred me to find the Catholic explanation of these gifts. And explanation that references the Catechism as well as scripture. Maybe I’ll hit the trifecta and find ECF But I am not a fast researcher so this will take awhile I am sure.

For a while I have rested on the assurance from the leadership of the Church. I had no desire to “explain” the Holy Spirit’s gifts to me with references that people like you could look at and say, Oh, okay

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MrS]

Maria, I agree that I may be ignorant. It’s possible I’m reading something into it that isn’t there. Perhaps I have an exagerated view of what it’s all about. You also made a good point that many of my remarks might have come across as insensitive. And if both our recent Popes have approved of this, I concede. It must just be over my head.
Maybe you can help me understand. From what I know about the ways of the Saints, they had a very common tendency to hide their spiritual gifts. They were given these gifts by God because of their profound sanctity and moral perfection. So why are there so many people today claiming to have gifts of prophecy, toungues, etc who show little in the ways of simple virtues like patience, meekness, and so forth? In fact, it seems most everyone in these services displays some gift. I’m just wondering why even many of the Saints were not given such gifts, but anyone of us can just go and have hands laid on us by a lay person and receive such profound power?

We have a local Charismatic who writes a lot, speaks a lot, etc… and is looked on with awe by the charismatic community. Ironically, he also writes/speaks a lot about St Teresa of Avila… a saint known more for her humility and quiet holidness than anything else… go figure

.

 

[MariaG]

They were given these gifts by God because of their profound sanctity and moral perfection.

Thanks for highlighting this MrS.

The saints were not given gifts because of their profound sanctity and moral perfection.

We can clearly see from the parable of men with coins that God give gifts to all. Some he gives one, some more. But as we USE this gifts for His glory, He gives us more.

And the more we use our gifts, them more gifts we are given.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

St. Teresa of Avila is not only a saint but a doctor of the Church. She was very concerned about the discernment between “false gifts” and gifts from the Holy Spirit. However, it is interesting to note that she said this in her book, Interior Castles (sixth mansion):

Our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. I am writing about this favor so that if he grants it to you, you may give him such praise and know what is taking place . . . . It seems like gibberish, and certainly the experience is like that, for it is a joy so excessive that the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul to praise our Lord.

I think it is also to important to note these thoughts she had about raptures (not the the protestant term of rapture, here). She said:
Real rapture, she says, may be frightening or painful, but the aftereffect **makes one more detached from the world and more deeply in love with Christ. **A devil-spawned vision would lead one away from Christ, toward the world. If the rapture brings us closer to God, how can it be anything but a gift from his hands?

I think this logic applies to all spiritual gifts. If it brings to closer to Christ, it is the real deal, pure and simple. If it makes you puff up in pride then it is probably false.

 

[Truthstalker]

If it brings to closer to Christ, it is the real deal, pure and simple. If it makes you puff up in pride then it is probably false.

I think this is a very good rule of thumb.

 

[MariaG]

I think this is a very good rule of thumb.

I agree.

 

[kevb]

Just as with the possible dichotomy between a priest’s ability to perform a sanctity while in a state of mortal sin, spiritual gifts can be used without it being a reflection on the sanctity of the one holding the gift. In Matthew 7 we see the contrast between some who use the power gifts and those who know Jesus. Yet we also know the apostles worked miracles of healing, cast out evil spirits, and performed other works supernaturally. To be able to pray for the sick and have them healed is no reflection on the one praying, but rather on the giver of the gift; Christ. Some have erred in this way and credited themselves with the gift due to their own sanctity, or are respected because God gave them a gift. But as with all gifts, we should instead grow more humble and realize it is God at work, and that we should, with John the Baptist, decrease that He might increase.

I think the stigmata are another issue, which I am not sure how to approach. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, I haven’t thought through all the issues here.

Excellent points here. I suppose they didn’t receive anything because of any already existing merit, but I’m pretty sure that the greatest fruits that resulted from the apostles and saints receiving these gifts, was a corrosponding increase in sanctity, holiness, and heroic virtue. However, I know that’s certainly not always the case with priests, so CCR gifts could be similar.
It also seems like the gifts given to the apostles and saints always served a definite purpose and glorified God in a profound way. As someone mentioned earlier, speaking in languages they couldn’t possibly know, healing, raising the dead, etc. And as I said, now we’re seeing things such as uncontrollable laughter and seizures, which to me seems almost like a mockery of the stillness, gentleness, and solemn reverence of Christ himself. Once again, this must be totally over my head, because the Church approves and I fully submit to their authority.

 

[kevb]

Yes it will be interesting.

Also, these conversations have spurred me to find the Catholic explanation of these gifts. And explanation that references the Catechism as well as scripture. Maybe I’ll hit the trifecta and find ECF But I am not a fast researcher so this will take awhile I am sure.

For a while I have rested on the assurance from the leadership of the Church. I had no desire to “explain” the Holy Spirit’s gifts to me with references that people like you could look at and say, Oh, okay

God Bless,
Maria

That’s what’s great about these forums. I’m always learning and being inspired by others to research even more about my faith. Great discussion. Let me know if you find anything interesting.

 

[kevb]

St. Teresa of Avila is not only a saint but a doctor of the Church. She was very concerned about the discernment between “false gifts” and gifts from the Holy Spirit. However, it is interesting to note that she said this in her book, Interior Castles (sixth mansion):

Our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. I am writing about this favor so that if he grants it to you, you may give him such praise and know what is taking place . . . . It seems like gibberish, and certainly the experience is like that, for it is a joy so excessive that the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul to praise our Lord.

I think it is also to important to note these thoughts she had about raptures (not the the protestant term of rapture, here). She said:
Real rapture, she says, may be frightening or painful, but the aftereffect **makes one more detached from the world and more deeply in love with Christ. **A devil-spawned vision would lead one away from Christ, toward the world. If the rapture brings us closer to God, how can it be anything but a gift from his hands?

Good quotes from St. Theresa. When I talked about St. John of the Cross before, he used the word “locutions”, which may be different from rapture. He said to absolutely ignore any messages, voices, or possible revelation you receive in prayer to avoid being deceived by the devil. I’ll dig up some direct quotes from St. John.

I think this logic applies to all spiritual gifts. If it brings to closer to Christ, it is the real deal, pure and simple. If it makes you puff up in pride then it is probably false.

This made me wonder about Our Lady of Medjugorje, actually. Especially since I’ve heard a lot of Charismatics have devotion to her. I know that many have experienced raptures at medjugorje, which has also converted and reconverted many into zealous followers of Our Lady and of the faith in general, but I understand the Vatican does not have a favorable opinion of this apparition and is highly suspicious.
I’m really surprised that the Church has not been similarly cautious about the CCR. But, if they already approve, they must have already completed a thorough study of the types of phenomena going on. The way the Church has always officially investigated the supernatural has been done in a highly conservative manner. First, by ruling out psychological or medical causes, second, ruling out psychic or demonic activity, and only after a lot of careful research, concluding that such extraordinary behavior to come from God. This could be different because it’s happening to such large groups all over the world and to so many people at once, which would make it more difficult to thoroughly investigate. Of course if these gifts were happening to me personally, I’d probably have a whole different take on the whole thing. I’m sure that’s why some would get frustrated trying to explain it to people like me who only understand things in parables.

 

[MariaG]

That’s what’s great about these forums. I’m always learning and being inspired by others to research even more about my faith. Great discussion. Let me know if you find anything interesting.

Definitely .

 

[Truthstalker]

When I talked about St. John of the Cross before, he used the word “locutions”, which may be different from rapture. He said to absolutely ignore any messages, voices, or possible revelation you receive in prayer to avoid being deceived by the devil. I’ll dig up some direct quotes from St. John.

So according to him the devil would speak but the Holy Spirit never would? It seems that with him the fear factor was greater than the love factor. Perfect love casts out fear. We want to tune in to God, not to the devil. What about “my sheep hear my voice”? How did he think Christians hear God speak to them in their lives? When and how do you receive guidance from God if He is not permitted to speak? We need to learn how to listen, and this sounds like a shutting down of the ears. We need to learn to differentiate the voice of God from the voice of the devil, and that takes practice and humility and trust. He seems to be rejecting the possibility God would ever speak to anyone in prayer.

Apparently he would have had a great deal of trouble with SAINT Joan of Arc, who heard voices. I’m not sure he is so authoritative.
I’ll appreciate the quotes but I wonder.

This just strikes me as very strange.

And the charismata are grace gifts - completely unearned, completely undeserved: gifts, not awards for good conduct. If you do well with what you are given, you may get more, but the timing is up to God as it is with any talent: none of which we earn, none of which we deserve.

 

[kevb]

So according to him the devil would speak but the Holy Spirit never would? It seems that with him the fear factor was greater than the love factor. Perfect love casts out fear. We want to tune in to God, not to the devil. What about “my sheep hear my voice”? How did he think Christians hear God speak to them in their lives? When and how do you receive guidance from God if He is not permitted to speak? We need to learn how to listen, and this sounds like a shutting down of the ears. We need to learn to differentiate the voice of God from the voice of the devil, and that takes practice and humility and trust. He seems to be rejecting the possibility God would ever speak to anyone in prayer.

Apparently he would have had a great deal of trouble with SAINT Joan of Arc, who heard voices. I’m not sure he is so authoritative.
I’ll appreciate the quotes but I wonder.

This just strikes me as very strange.

And the charismata are grace gifts - completely unearned, completely undeserved: gifts, not awards for good conduct. If you do well with what you are given, you may get more, but the timing is up to God as it is with any talent: none of which we earn, none of which we deserve.

It’s not so much that we aren’t receiving communications from God, but that we are too flawed to properly understand and use these private revelations. Here are some quotes from St. John of the Cross, who is pretty authoritative as a Doctor of the Church as well:

Ascent of Mount Carmel, Chapter 19
11. The spiritual teacher must therefore strive that the spirituality of his disciple be not cramped by attempts to interpret all supernatural apprehensions, which are no more than spiritual particles, lest he come to retain naught but these, and have no spirituality at all. But let the teacher wean his disciple from all visions and locutions, and impress upon him the necessity of dwelling in the liberty and darkness of faith, wherein are received spiritual liberty and abundance, and consequently the wisdom and understanding necessary to interpret sayings of God
14. In this and other ways, the words and visions of God may be true and sure and yet we may be deceived by them, through being unable to interpret them in a high and important sense, which is the sense and purpose wherein God intends them. And thus the best and surest course is to train souls in prudence so that they flee from these supernatural things, by accustoming them, as we have said, to purity of spirit in dark faith, which is the means of union.

Chapter 20:
6. You will perhaps ask me: Why, if we are not to understand these things, or to play any part in them, does God communicate them to us? I have already said that everything will be understood in its own time by the command of Him Who spake it, and he whom God wills shall understand it, and it will be seen that it was fitting; for God does naught save with due cause and in truth. Let it be realized, therefore, that there is no complete understanding of the meaning of the sayings and things of God, and that this meaning cannot be decided by what it seems to be, without great error, and, in the end, grievous confusion. This was very well known to the prophets, into whose hands was given the word of God, and who found it a sore trial to prophesy concerning the people

Chapter 27:
4. Since, then, there are no more articles to be revealed concerning the substance of our faith than those which have already been revealed to the Church, not only must anything new which may be revealed to the soul concerning this be rejected, but it behoves the soul to be cautious and pay no heed to any novelties implied therein, and for the sake of the purity of the soul it behoves it to rely on faith alone. Even though the truths already revealed to it be revealed again, it will believe them, not because they are now revealed anew, but because they have already been sufficiently revealed to the Church: indeed, it must close its understanding to them, holding simply to the doctrine of the Church and to its faith, which, as Saint Paul says, enters through hearing.[247] And let not its credence and intellectual assent be given to these matters of the faith which have been revealed anew, however fitting and true they may seem to it, if it desire not to be deceived. For, in order to deceive the soul and to instil falsehoods into it, the devil first feeds it with truths and things that are probable in order to give it assurance and afterwards to deceive it. He resembles one that sews leather with a bristle, first piercing the leather with the sharp bristle, after which enters the soft thread; the thread could not enter unless the bristle guided it.
…continued below

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[kevb]

…continued:
6. And if it is true that, for the reasons already described, it behoves the soul to close its eyes to the aforementioned revelations which come to it, and which concern the propositions of the faith, how much more necessary will it be neither to receive nor to give credit to other revelations relating to different things, wherein the devil habitually meddles so freely that I believe it impossible for a man not to be deceived in many of them unless he strive to reject them, such an appearance of truth and security does the devil give them? For he brings together so many appearances and probabilities, in order that they may be believed, and plants them so firmly in the sense and the imagination, that it seems to the person affected that what he says will certainly happen; and in such a way does he cause the soul to grasp and hold them, that, if it have not humility, it will hardly be persuaded to reject them and made to believe the contrary. Wherefore, the soul that is pure, cautious, simple and humble must resist revelations and other visions with as much effort and care as though they were very perilous temptations. For there is no need to desire them; on the contrary, there is need not too desire them, if we are to reach the union of love. It is this that Solomon meant when he said: ‘What need has a man to desire and seek things that are above his natural capacity?’[249] As though we were to say: He has no necessity, in order to be perfect, to desire supernatural things by supernatural means, which are above his capacity.

 

[Truthstalker]

IMHO God is capable of effectively communicating in a manner we can understand. I think an organic Catholic charismatic theology would include these passages as well as the verse “Despise not prophesying” and Paul’s encouraging the Corinthians to prophesy. Something seems to be contradictory here.

Thanks for posting this.