Chaste Cohabitation?

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If this guy were not already sacking in in the same bed with your housemate and could be trusted to sleep in a separate bedroom, I personally would have no problems with a short term arrangement, say over the summer term. However that doesn’t seem to be the case and whether there are chaste nights in the same bed or not it makes you uncomfortable. That you are uncomfortable should be enough for your housemate to say no. She is the unreasonable one.👍
 
Kevin42 said:
That’s a foolish thing to say. If someone tells you that they are living together chastely and you have no proof otherwise, you should trust them. Just because some people may not have the will power to do such a thing does not mean that others don’t.
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I would not believe someone if they told me they were living with the person they were in love with chastely. I would believe if a person told me that occasionally, they stay the night, but remain chaste.

It is foolish and unreasonable to assume that people believe that a cohabitating couple is chaste. It is a scandal.
 
Scandal is a big part of it. This may not help, but this is the Catholic stand on it from the Catechism:

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."85 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.86

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."87 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,88 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"89

85 Mt 18:6; Cf. 1 Cor 8:10-13.
86 Cf. Mt 7:15.
87 Pius XII, Discourse, June 1, 1941.
88 Cf. Eph 6:4; Col. 3:21.
89 Lk 17:1.

Good Luck
 
I think you’re looking for a secular way to explain scandal- here is how my boys have learned to do it when dealing with nonChristians-

“It just doesn’t look right”

There is a Chinese quote something like this

“Don’t bend over to tie your shoes in someone else’s watermelon patch”

IOW if it looks wrong- you are actually setting yourself up for being accused of wrong-doing
 
I have a question about the scandal. The fact that I have a boyfriend causes anyone who doesn’t really know me to assume that things are happening. While I was away at college some of my co-workers were actually talking about how often I had sex with my boyfriend, despite the fact I didn’t. And I have previously told most of the participants that I was Catholic and didn’t believe in pre-marital sex. So my question is, since me having any boyfriend causes talk, does that mean I can’t have a boyfriend? In my experience anyone who doesn’t know you assumes you are sleeping with your SO.
 
I guess I am having a hard time understanding the difference between him “officially living” there and his spending 3-4 nights a week sleeping there in the same bed (with or without relations). If he is already spending most nights there, why not at least have him help pay the rent and reduce the amount of rent you are paying until you have fulfilled your term on the lease and can move out? Otherwise, I would tell her that you do not approve of, nor feel comfortable with, him sleeping there EVER. They can go to his home to spend the night, or spend the night in separate homes.
 
Arwen037 said:
I have a question about the scandal. The fact that I have a boyfriend causes anyone who doesn’t really know me to assume that things are happening. While I was away at college some of my co-workers were actually talking about how often I had sex with my boyfriend, despite the fact I didn’t. And I have previously told most of the participants that I was Catholic and didn’t believe in pre-marital sex. So my question is, since me having any boyfriend causes talk, does that mean I can’t have a boyfriend? In my experience anyone who doesn’t know you assumes you are sleeping with your SO.
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First off, 👍 good job on standing up for your faith and beliefs (a very unpopular one these days). Just like there are people out there who, no matter how many times they are “evangelized” to, will never convert (or even attend church in the first place), there are also people out there who no matter how many times you tell them that there is no pre-marital sex with you SO, they will never believe you. I feel, from what you’ve written, that a very good effort at avoiding scandal has been made. I think you still need to continue to stress the fact (when conversation comes up) that you are not engaged in premarital sex, and pray that God will soften their hearts to the truth. However, I am not a cannon lawyer, so this might not be the best way to approach it. Maybe a talk to your priest would help as well.

God Bless!
Ericka
 
Arwen037 said:
I have a question about the scandal. The fact that I have a boyfriend causes anyone who doesn’t really know me to assume that things are happening. While I was away at college some of my co-workers were actually talking about how often I had sex with my boyfriend, despite the fact I didn’t. And I have previously told most of the participants that I was Catholic and didn’t believe in pre-marital sex. So my question is, since me having any boyfriend causes talk, does that mean I can’t have a boyfriend? In my experience anyone who doesn’t know you assumes you are sleeping with your SO.
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I do not think this question was asked sincerely, but rather to mock Catholics.
 
Being a man, I am not very concerned if someone doesn’'t understand my moral objections. Nor do I think it my fault if I object. I would be nice if they understood my objection, but if they didn’t, that wouldn’t upset me. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet.
 
To rpp, I’ve been on this forum for 4 years. I am a converted catholic. I didn’t ask it to mock, I asked it because it is true and sometimes this scandal stuff gets out of control. Where is the line for what gives scandal and is allowed and what gives scandal and isn’t?
 
Arwen,

Sometimes you have to turn it back on them. Ask them about the scandal caused by malicious gossip? If they are Christian or Jewish - ask them how they square their gossip with the commandment, “Thou shalt not bear false witness” - the 8th commandment for Catholics, and I believe Protestants consider it the 9th Commandment.

Ericka,

A co-worker of mine once asked my opinion about live-in boyfriends/girlfriends. He professed to be Church of Christ or something to that effect, yet of course he had no problem with it. My response to him was that they should wait till marriage to live together or have sex. His response back was that I had no right to force my religious views on him. My response to that was two-fold. First - if you don’t want my honest opinion, don’t ask me for it. Second - if the Ten Commandments aren’t your beliefs too, does that mean you’re telling me you’re not Christian after all? Ironically - he had no response to either of those.
 
Arwen037 said:
To rpp, I’ve been on this forum for 4 years. I am a converted catholic. I didn’t ask it to mock, I asked it because it is true and sometimes this scandal stuff gets out of control. Where is the line for what gives scandal and is allowed and what gives scandal and isn’t?
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I suggest you read the Catechism points 2284-2287 on scandal. “Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil…”

Dating a member of the opposite sex is not overtly scandalous. If he’s spending the night and/or living with you, it’s scandalous. Excessive public displays of affection are also scandalous.

It’s highly inappropriate for your co-workers to gossip about you as they did. Continue to speak up to declare your innocence and avoid situations with your boyfriend that give any appearance of impropriety.
 
I also have many questions about this whole chaste sleeping together thing. My situation is a little different than my friend here with the boyfriend who spends the night. I have a Catholic friend who I know had a firm upbringing. We were at a bar the other night and we got into a argument about this topic. His mentality was if the couples were “mature enough” it was fine for a couple to hold each other all night as long as no one had sex. His argumentation seemed juvenile at least. He agreed it was not prudent and that it could cause scandal, but that there was not anything morally wrong with the action. His reasoning behind doing it was showing some one how much you loved them, an excuse often used for fornication.

In my feelings on the matter. First, it seems to show a lack of concern and care for one’s partner. A parent does not talk his child on a hike and see how close they can walk to the edge of the cliff. Even if the parent KNOWS he can catch the child, should he fall. No, a good parent would stay on the path and attend to the child’s safety. Even if you know beyond all doubt that you won’t have sex, it just seems to show a lack of concern and care for the safety of your girlfriend/boyfriend because every time you do it you are tempting fate.

Second, It seems to show an attitude about chastity that is somewhat backwards. Chastity is not about “how much I can get away with before committing a sin.” chastity is to desire purity of heart and to treat ALL human beings as people not objects. If you’re looking to do what you can “get away with” with your boyfriend or girlfriend then maybe you aren’t approaching chastity the right way and you need to rethink the nature of the relationship you are in. Are you doing these things out of sincere care or to satiate a selfish desire? It seems that if a boyfriend wanted to “Show his love” to his girlfriend he would respect her purity and keep the bed off limits.

Third, the bedroom is a boundary, a sacred place, where a couple makes efficacious their wedding vows. The bed serves as a sacramental area where one materializes the vows taken between the spouses. It seems to almost trespass on a property not yet attained by the couple. I don’t understand why you would want to go to bed with some one who wasn’t your spouse? That’s what the bedroom is there for, that’s the purpose it serves for couples! Further, once you cross that boundary line, you have broken down a wall of personal space, and the habit of dwelling there CAN lead to further more serious actions, no matter how chaste you are. Human beings are habit forming by nature, the more you surround yourself with certain actions the more comfortable with it you become, this can cloud your judgement later on, and the question of having sex together won’t seem as bad, because you have desensitized yourselves. I have never smoked anything in my life (not even a cigarette) or done any drugs, does that mean its totally fine for me to take up hanging out at opium dens? No! Even if it doesn’t tempt me at first, it will break down my personal barrier towards those actions, I will become desensitized to doing drugs, and eventually I will probably end up doing them.

Does anyone else have any advice to give my confused friend? He seems to want some “legalistic” “catholic” reason. Im sorry but being Catholic is a way of living, every day, not some list of dos and don’ts. The church cannot enumerate EVERY single action that can harm you! But does anyone know of a good article on this matter, or a statement made by a well know priest etc… that I can give him?

In answer to my friend here. I would not let your friend’s boyfriend move in. Consent to this situation is consent to this behavior. We share in our brother and sister’s sins when we consent. Of course we can only do so much as explain why it can hurt them and why it is wrong, and then the rest is up to them. I think that the best thing to do would be to have a girl to girl chat with your friend, and explain to her that the boyfriend coming over violates your beliefs and puts you in a difficult position where in your consent of him being there over night its harming your soul (I’m not positive if consenting this is a sin…ask a priest, now.) I know that Church says that catholics cannot allow sexually active premarital couples to stay with them in their house in the same bed, because you are allowing the circumstances for sin to happen. As for sleeping “chastley” I dunno that seems to be a pretty fine line. For the sake of your well being and of course your friends’ I would make some radical changes in your living situation. Either he stops spending the night or you move out. Your friend has a duty to respect your religious beliefs. Move out if you have to, any situation is not worth the price of your soul. Who knows maybe this will make them rethink this habit.

Pax Christi!
 
I’m less interested in judging the theoretical morality of this situation than in providing a practical response.

(1) I knew a couple who did this before marriage. It ended up being extremely awkward for all concerned. (They did indeed live chastely, but it was rather weird; they slept fully clothed side by side; people did ask questions, and especially wondered why they would put themselves through that much torture & temptation.) In my opinion, there is no compelling reason to live together in such a style.

(2) I cannot understand why the OP would even think of being the sacrificial lamb to move out to accommodate such an arrangement. Why should a person already residing somewhere be inconvenienced by someone who is essentially a 3rd party and not an original tenant? Further, the act of moving out enables the odd/questionable arrangment to occur. Make THEM uncomfortable, for heaven’s sake. Martyrdom is not required here.
 
Wow! Thanks for all your responses! I feel guilty for not responding …however, as it goes, I have been rather busy with school-related things, work, etc. 🤓 In fact, since I believe January, I havent been looking at CAF, until maybe last month or so?

Anyways, to update on things, my friend and her boyfriend were understanding. Situation has changed and they haven’t moved in together for the summer term. So there’s no problem anymore with that. And you all gave helpful responses as to how to explain to them why I felt fidgity about it. Although, I don’t know, they still might question (they havent since that time, btu still …who knows…), so like what Veralcona brought up, are there any good articles, etc on this subject?

Thanks again, you all have been helpful and supportive :).
 
Ankabaranka_87 said:
Wow! Thanks for all your responses! I feel guilty for not responding …however, as it goes, I have been rather busy with school-related things, work, etc. 🤓 In fact, since I believe January, I havent been looking at CAF, until maybe last month or so?

Anyways, to update on things, my friend and her boyfriend were understanding. Situation has changed and they haven’t moved in together for the summer term. So there’s no problem anymore with that. And you all gave helpful responses as to how to explain to them why I felt fidgity about it. Although, I don’t know, they still might question (they havent since that time, btu still …who knows…), so like what Veralcona brought up, are there any good articles, etc on this subject?

Thanks again, you all have been helpful and supportive :).
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Here is a short article. And here are some others.
 
Living together is at the very least an occasion of sin. We’re supposed to avoid all occasions of sin
 
Lol, they want to co-habit, and you’re moving out? What does you staying or going have to do with anything?

If they get up to anything it’s their fault, not yours 🤷

Seriously, some of you just compound problems further than they need to be, I can understand if it was your house, or you were paying the rent, then you could say no to that, but evceryone’s pulling their weight and you are getting upset, really immature.
 
The general responses I had on a previous thread, to grossly oversimplify, included (and the responses I recall giving)-

Near occasion of sin- I said sin≠near occasion of sin- otherwise being in a situation that could potentially lead to a near occasion of sin would be a sin as well, and we could end up with an infinite chain. (e.g. eating pizza may be a near occasion of sin with respect to gluttony. If we take not avoiding that is a sin, then failing to avoid a situation which could result in the eating of pizza which could result in gluttony would be a sin as well.)

Scandal- People can assume you’re sinning regardless of what you do and Jesus wasn’t a big “be careful what people think of you” kinda guy.

Why not wait- Personal preference- there’s nothing objectionable about not kissing or holding hands prior to marriage, but the fact that the option to wait exists does not necessitate taking it.
 
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