"Chaste" same-sex dating ok with Church?

[elts1956]

I think 2 homosexuals can be friends and do activities that friends would do…like go to dinner or coffee.

They need to remain chaste, but friendship could be a possibility.

I do think this would be placing oneself vulnerable to possible sin and would be an occasion of sin.

 

[elts1956]

I think 2 homosexuals can be friends and do activities that friends would do…like go to dinner or coffee.

They need to remain chaste, but friendship could be a possibility.

I have SSA, am 15, and will be Catholic within a year. I have much of the same questions about what relationships are tolerated and which are inherently wrong. I refuse to consider myself gay, because people who are “gay” embrace the lifestyle which comes with the word; I instead prefer “SSA” when I refer to my condition.

I am dealing with the biggest crush I have ever had for someone in my life (I suppose I might say “madly in love”, but I don’t like using the phrase), and this person who I love is a boy my age. Just last night I experienced a hug from a different boy, and am wondering if what I did was a sin, and/or whether or not me hugging the boy I have a crush on would be a sin. I genuinely care about this boy, and infact I think about him every hour of the day. I cannot stand being away from him; even if I’m only away from him for an hour. I want to spend the rest of mt life with him, though I know this notion is complete nonsense.

There are probably psychological reason for this attraction. I would suggest you go to a good Catholic councilor who has helped folks with this before.

I also hope you have talked to your priest about this???

 

[elts1956]

I am sick to death of reading heterosexual, middle class, white mails from suburban America try to legislate on behalf of the Church about homosexuality. Read the Bible. Read the teachings of Pope John Paul II on the theology of the body and try to draw your own conclusions (think, read, pray). If you do that and ignore the hate spouting on the internet, I think the conclusion you reach will be quite different from a lot of the hatred (it plain is) spouted on forums like this.
Also, I don’t think that the conclusions reached by these boys are necessarily the continuation of the Catechism’s teachings on it.

Personally I haven’t seen much “hate” against homosexuals per se on these forums, but have seen hate against the “sin” of any who are actively sexual in a same sex “relationship”… Sorry, couldn’t think of another word other than “relationship”. Same sex activity isn’t having a true relationship.

 

[HCC]

If anyone is truly struggling with these issues, please contact the people at Courage:

couragerc.net/

This is an organization completely faithful to Church teaching. They will be able to guide you and give you support, encouragement and clear understanding of the moral teaching of the Church on this matter.

It is my understanding they encourage chaste friendships and provide opportunities of “fellowship” for people in the same boat, struggling with this issue and trying to live the Church’s teaching.

Everyone else, be careful what you say here. There may be people who despair over this type of issue and you don’t want to drive anyone into, or deeper into, despair.

 

[TheQuestioner]

So – we’ve eliminated a same-sex sexual relationship of any kind, we’ve eliminated “dating” – we’re certainly uncomfortable with the prospect of gay priests in our church – we’re asking all homosexual single people to remain celibate (as all heterosexual people are asked to do) –but even when they comply with all of that, they now must come to church alone – because someone will assume they are not celibate.

…I don’t think anyone actually said that. We are all simply saying that homosexuals cannot date. Whatever entails dating therefore shouldn’t be done. So holding hands, kissing, going to a fancy romantic restaurant shouldn’t be done if romance is the objective. It really is subjective. For me going for coffee isn’t really a “romantic thing” unless romance was intended. Neither is going to an amusement park unless again, romance is intended. So no one is saying that two homosexuals can’t be friends, just like a guy and girl. But we are saying that they shouldn’t “date” and be careful with some of their activities so as to not cause scandal.

I think you may be looking for an issue where no issue lies. You seem to be seeking out people in this thread who are hard and cruel to homosexuals, but from what i’ve read I don’t see any of that.

 

[Adeodatus]

There are also some things that are performatively identical but intentionally distinct.

Example: recently, my best bud took me out to eat. He got bonused at work, was flush, and knew I didn’t have a lot of money. He also knew I wasn’t getting enough of the world’s greatest carnitas in my life (not a euphemism - they’re incredible… marinated in milk, orange juice and coca-cola and then fried! yes!) and wanted to do something nice. So we hung out, broke bread and chatted for a few hours. That’s not a date, that’s just hangin’ with my bro.

When performatives are neutral, it’s the moral responsibility of the individual to police his intentionality. Granted, people with different issues have different things they have to police. I can chill out with one of my droogs and I know it doesn’t ‘mean anything’ because it can’t mean anything. I could hang out with a friend’s wife and it also wouldn’t be a problem, just knowing them and knowing myself (with one exception… I find her extremely beautiful, so much so that I can’t even look at her for very long without getting improper thoughts… so in social situations I don’t look at her very much and when we talk I have to be be careful not to slip into flirtation… it’s not that I’d do anything with her, but I don’t want to disrespect her husband). But if I spend a lot of time alone with an attractive young woman, depending on the circumstances I have to be clear with myself about what I’m trying to do. Now if we’re both single then no problem as long as I’m a gentleman because heterosexual dating is allowed. But if for some reason I’m not supposed to be dating this girl, then if I start getting those feelings I would have to dial back my contact with her in order to make sure everything is right.

We all have different crosses to bear. Some are heavier and more complicated than others. That’s just the way it is.

 

[elts1956]

Yet…the Church encourages homosexuals to love the Catholic Church, to be obedient to its precepts and dogmas, to cherish celibacy, to accept with humility the fact that their sexual orientation (which they did not choose) is “intrinsically disordered” and their personal cross to bear – but they can’t be seen coming to church with a friend because it might cause scandal?

So – we’ve eliminated a same-sex sexual relationship of any kind, we’ve eliminated “dating” – we’re certainly uncomfortable with the prospect of gay priests in our church – we’re asking all homosexual single people to remain celibate (as all heterosexual people are asked to do) – *but even when they comply with all of that, they now must come to church alone – because someone will assume they are not celibate.
*

I hope you’re not planning a trip to California any time soon – can you believe there are churches here who actually value, respect, honor, love and minister to gay communities?

If a homosexual person complies with everything the Church demands, they should be welcomed at the front door of every Catholic church in the world with or without their friends. In fact, even if they don’t comply with any of the demands, they are our brothers and sisters in Christ and should be welcomed as such. The state of their souls is between them and God alone.

Do you realize that these are real, breathing, living people we’re talking about here – that this isn’t a cold, abstract premise to be quantified and codified?

I can’t begin to tell you, as a straight, faithful, cradle-Catholic grandmother (with no homosexuals in the family that I’m aware of), how disgusting I find this particular discrimination – and there’s no other word for it.

I’m amazed that the Church has even ONE homosexual member if this thread is typical of Catholic thinking.

About forty or fifty years ago, at least for myself, I thought nothing of seeing males or females hanging together. Of course I never saw any of them holding hands etc., but the forment of same sex this and that has now made even naive me suspicious of any “couple” of the same sex. What a shame!!!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

If a divorced woman or man is not allowed to date, why can same-sex couples?

Also, can priests date even though they will remain chaste and won’t pursue marriage?

The answer is right there

But a divorced woman is allowed to have a sincere platonic friendship with a man…

Am I just naive, but is humanity that base that pure friendship is no longer a possibility? A person with SSA cannot possibly have a friendship with a person of the same gender?

 

[mcteague]

I have SSA, am 15, and will be Catholic within a year. I have much of the same questions about what relationships are tolerated and which are inherently wrong. I refuse to consider myself gay, because people who are “gay” embrace the lifestyle which comes with the word; I instead prefer “SSA” when I refer to my condition.

The vast majority of people experience some homo-erotic feelings at some point in their lives. Especially during adolescence when practically everything makes you think of sex. The major problem at that age is that identity is such a big part of your psychi. By that that I mean you don’t have to decide that you are something simply because a thought, however strong, passes through your mind. It would be fine with me if you were to decide you are gay. But I would not be so quick to decide that that is your identity. You think about a lot of things at 15 and also at 50. It is really quite ok.

 

[illmatic]

Personally I haven’t seen much “hate” against homosexuals per se on these forums, but have seen hate against the “sin” of any who are actively sexual in a same sex “relationship”… Sorry, couldn’t think of another word other than “relationship”. Same sex activity isn’t having a true relationship.

I would call the complete dismissal of same-sex relationships hateful.

Hey… good book. Yes, let’s read it:

Hmm.

Or were you talking about like the Upanishads or something?

Something I take from the Bible and that I understand to be a legitimate reading is that we must do all we can to interpret it accurately. Like most anything, the Bible can have meanings projected onto it by the reader. Christ often spoke in parable etc. and taught us how to decipher/think into things. I would argue that He intends us to do the same with the Bible. Should Christian action be guided by what you have quoted OR by the love amongst humans that Jesus promotes? If there is a conflict, what is paramount? What comes out on top of the two? Should we understand that the parts that applied then have the exact same direct application now or should we try harder to decipher and apply to Bible to the modern world? What do you think?

 

[LCMS_No_More]

But a divorced woman is allowed to have a sincere platonic friendship with a man…

Am I just naive, but is humanity that base that pure friendship is no longer a possibility? A person with SSA cannot possibly have a friendship with a person of the same gender?

Apparently not. It seems that people with SSA are completely unable to control themselves and become animalistic at the very notion of being alone with a member of the same-sex. /sarcasm

Does anyone have any CLUE as to how demeaning these kinds of discussions and judgments about people with SSA are? I already feel unwelcome in the Church because of SSA. I can’t have a vocation. I can’t get married. Now, I’m supposed to be completely alone all the time and have no friends?

This is the Church that GOD created?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Apparently not. It seems that people with SSA are completely unable to control themselves and become animalistic at the very notion of being alone with a member of the same-sex. /sarcasm

Does anyone have any CLUE as to how demeaning these kinds of discussions and judgments about people with SSA are? I already feel unwelcome in the Church because of SSA. I can’t have a vocation. I can’t get married. Now, I’m supposed to be completely alone all the time and have no friends?

This is the Church that GOD created?

I’ll be your friend.

I don’t believe Jesus wants you to be friendless…He wants you to not sin, you seem to be trying your best. All of us are sinners. You have a different set of temptations than I do.

I know recovering alcholics, they are not supposed to consume alcohol…but they are not required to avoid all places that alcohol might be served.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I’ll be your friend.

I don’t believe Jesus wants you to be friendless…He wants you to not sin, you seem to be trying your best. All of us are sinners. You have a different set of temptations than I do.

I know recovering alcholics, they are not supposed to consume alcohol…but they are not required to avoid all places that alcohol might be served.

Thanks. I actually have a lot of friends. The better ones aren’t practicing Catholics, unfortunately.

I was addressing the general tone taken towards people with SSA by Catholics in general…a tone of fear and mistrust, so keep them separate and let’s not even make the pretense of being equal…homosexual people are inferior to others in the Church. Can’t be priests or religious, can’t get married. Can’t have romantic relationships. Can’t do this. Can’t do that. It’s all about what people with SSA can NOT do.

Now, I believe that SSA can be overcome by some people and I’ve made progress in that area. To be honest, I stopped asking God to help me because He never seemed interested in healing me from SSA, so I’m pursuing healing as best as I can. I see other men much differently than I used to and I am starting to see women differently too. I’m starting to see both more completely, which helps me to relate to each appropriately, seeing them as a full human being, just like me.

 

[Spirithound]

I have SSA, am 15, and will be Catholic within a year. I have much of the same questions about what relationships are tolerated and which are inherently wrong. I refuse to consider myself gay, because people who are “gay” embrace the lifestyle which comes with the word; I instead prefer “SSA” when I refer to my condition.

I am dealing with the biggest crush I have ever had for someone in my life (I suppose I might say “madly in love”, but I don’t like using the phrase), and this person who I love is a boy my age. Just last night I experienced a hug from a different boy, and am wondering if what I did was a sin, and/or whether or not me hugging the boy I have a crush on would be a sin. I genuinely care about this boy, and infact I think about him every hour of the day. I cannot stand being away from him; even if I’m only away from him for an hour. I want to spend the rest of mt life with him, though I know this notion is complete nonsense.

Hey li’l brother. First and foremost, it’s really good that you have your terminology sorted out. When we’re having discussions, it’s important that everyone is using the same definitions. In some ways, conforming your life to Christ is like having a discussion with yourself, and so it is good that you have made a distinction between “gay” and “person with SSA”.

Hugging in and of itself is neutral, but it can be a bad action depending on your intention and what it accomplishes in you. As a Catholic, you realize that you do not want to further your attraction towards a same-sex sexual relationship, right? Hugging someone you are attracted to can result in furthering the fantasy of being with that person.

Reflect on this and let us know what you think.
Peace!

 

[Philology]

There are probably psychological reason for this attraction. I would suggest you go to a good Catholic councilor who has helped folks with this before.

I also hope you have talked to your priest about this???

I have not, and infact I attend a non-denominational church. I find it quite rude that you would be so light with your terminology in the face of such a serious problem which afflicts me. I am in no way mentally ill, I am also attracted to girls, and I wish you wouldn’t use such demeaning terms as psychological. It is not at all possible for me to go to a Catholic councilor, and is quite unneeded if I might add. I won’t forget the lightness with which you have shown my problem, and am still reeling at the fact that it is so difficult to find understanding people, even among your Christian brothers.

 

[Philology]

Hey li’l brother. First and foremost, it’s really good that you have your terminology sorted out. When we’re having discussions, it’s important that everyone is using the same definitions. In some ways, conforming your life to Christ is like having a discussion with yourself, and so it is good that you have made a distinction between “gay” and “person with SSA”.

Hugging in and of itself is neutral, but it can be a bad action depending on your intention and what it accomplishes in you. As a Catholic, you realize that you do not want to further your attraction towards a same-sex sexual relationship, right? Hugging someone you are attracted to can result in furthering the fantasy of being with that person.

Reflect on this and let us know what you think.
Peace!

I thank you for your very understanding comment, and I will try not to forget the kindness you showed me. I will pray for you, and offer you any sort of help if ever you need it. Thanks again, sometimes it is difficult to find friends, even among Christians like myself.

 

[Philology]

Thanks. I actually have a lot of friends. The better ones aren’t practicing Catholics, unfortunately.

I was addressing the general tone taken towards people with SSA by Catholics in general…a tone of fear and mistrust, so keep them separate and let’s not even make the pretense of being equal…homosexual people are inferior to others in the Church. Can’t be priests or religious, can’t get married. Can’t have romantic relationships. Can’t do this. Can’t do that. It’s all about what people with SSA can NOT do.

Now, I believe that SSA can be overcome by some people and I’ve made progress in that area. To be honest, I stopped asking God to help me because He never seemed interested in healing me from SSA, so I’m pursuing healing as best as I can. I see other men much differently than I used to and I am starting to see women differently too. I’m starting to see both more completely, which helps me to relate to each appropriately, seeing them as a full human being, just like me.

I know exactly how you feel, and though I’m only in my teens and at the beginning of my difficulties with SSA, I am already very tired of being told I have some mental disorder or affliction. I will be your friend, and perhaps in time we can both help eachother with our difficulties.

 

[Spirithound]

I find it quite rude that you would be so light with your terminology in the face of such a serious problem which afflicts me. I am in no way mentally ill, I am also attracted to girls, and I wish you wouldn’t use such demeaning terms as psychological. It is not at all possible for me to go to a Catholic councilor, and is quite unneeded if I might add.

Brother, please reconsider; Elts1956 did not say that you were mentally ill. Many people see counselors for many reasons other than schizophrenia, psychosis, bi-polar, depression, and so on. I would venture to say that the non-mentally ill make up the bulk of their workload. You’re talking to us online, and that’s nice, we’ll always be here to support you in your spiritual journey, but talking to someone in person is even better.

Now I’m not saying that you should, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t, but I want to emphasize that psychology is a legitimate discipline, and the people who use it should not be disparaged.

BTW, thank you for praying for me. I appreciate it greatly.

 

[PatrickSebast]

I have many friends. Most of them are guys like me. I don’t have SSA. I would never even dream of taking them out to movies, or dinner, or anything like that.

I have many friends. Most of them are guys like me. I don’t have SSA. I go out to the movies and dinner with my friends all the time.

Are you trying to say that it is somehow uncommon to do these things with friends? If you go to restaurants or movie theaters I will guarantee you that there will be males sitting together and females sitting together, none of whom happen to be in a homosexual relationship with each other.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Wow, I didn’t expect so many replies to this question. Just to put things in context, I do not have any SSA issues myself, and while I do know some “gay” people I wouldn’t call them close friends. It does seem that the consensus here is that overt same-sex dating is not allowed by the Church, and it would be considered scandalous for two people of the same sex to present themselves as a couple, kiss and hold hands, or otherwise act in ways that are more consistent with a romantic relationship than a friendship.

The topic seems to have branched out a little, and what’s being discussed now seems to be more the question of whether people with SSA should avoid any close relationships with others with SSA, either because it is a “near occasion of sin” due to causing temptation, or because others might assume such people are sexually involved and therefore cause scandal. I also find it interesting that most of the discussions have focused on gay men, not lesbians. It does seem that it is much more socially acceptable for two women to have an emotionally intimate friendship, hug each other, go out to dinner together, go out to a club together, be seen dancing, etc., than it is for two men to do so. Indeed, the word “girlfriend” is used by women to refer to platonic female friends, but I have never heard the word “boyfriend” used by men to refer to a platonic male friend. I wonder why this is the case. Is it because gay men, and indeed, men in general, tend to be stereotyped as total horndogs? Are people assuming that “hey, straight men can’t have platonic female friends because sex always come in to the picture, so there’s no way gay men can be close to other men without lusting after them?” I think most gay men would bristle at such a suggestion and say that just because they have SSA doesn’t mean they will automatically lust after every man they see. Also, does this mean that no two men should ever live together, gay or not? Would this cause the same amount of scandal as two people of the opposite sex living together?

This discussion is also ironic in that it reminds me of the recent brouhaha over whether Blessed Cardinal Newman had a same-sex “partner”. The answer to that question was that no, he had a close spiritual friend who he was buried with, but social norms were different then and it was completely socially acceptable to have close same-sex friends who you expressed love for, and that even getting buried in the same grave with such a friend (as Cardinal Newman did) was not considered, in that age, anything than the presence of a close friendship. But it seems that if Cardinal Newman and his friend were alive today, then many would look at them and wonder if they were indeed a gay couple. I find that to be very sad. I also wonder, is that the fault of the “gay community” and the secular tendency to sexualize everything, or does the fault lie in those who find scandal in every situation, and use “scandal” as an excuse to abandon charity?