Chastity, Catholicism, and Authority

[jinc1019]

I was reading through some of the answers listed on Chastity.com, which is a site affiliated with our very own Catholic Answers and is linked at the very top of every Catholic Answers site, and I would like to know where the Catholic Church is finding these teachings in the Bible or in tradition to justify some of these answers.

I understand that the standard Catholic answer is that the Church has the authority to teach these things, and I am not here to argue that, only to find out where in our sacred traditions or in the Bible, these teachings come from (if there is a place). The reason I ask is because I don’t recall, either in tradition or in the Bible anything coming close to what is suggested on the site.

For instance, it was suggested that prior to getting married, you shouldn’t even sleep (actual sleep) with a spouse in any way. Is napping really something Jesus was opposed to?

It also stated that if you are unmarried, you shouldn’t “make out” with your potential spouse, even if you are engaged.

Additionally, it was suggested that one should only act in a way that they would with their boyfriend/girlfriend’s parents around. Really?

Sex is for marriage, I understand that teaching, but this…This makes no sense at all. But even if it doesn’t, from the Catholic perspective, it doesn’t really matter. The Church has the authority to teach on these matters but what I want to know is, where are these teachings coming from? Where in tradition or scripture are these views coming from because they don’t seem to make much sense and I don’t recall seeing them anywhere in either of those two sources.

 

[bzkoss236]

These aren’t necessarily “Official Church Teaching”, but very good suggestions. This is because, by avoiding these things, you avoid putting yourself into a situation that could tempt you quite heavily into sin. So even if you know that sex is for marriage, if you start heavily making out, and hormone levels rise, your inhibitions can go out the window and take you farther than you should go. And sleeping in the same bed, and cohabitating, can cause scandal, so even if you aren’t actually doing anything and tell people that you aren’t, people could still speculate and assume you’re lying and create scandal.

The “act like you are always with your parents” thing is also just a suggested rule. I personally go by “don’t do anything you wouldn’t do in a public restaurant”, but the former is a more well known saying, and would force you to be more conservative with your PDA. Because you have to remember, that even if your parents or other people aren’t there, God is, and He is watching.

 

[wisedom]

I was reading through some of the answers listed on Chastity.com, which is a site affiliated with our very own Catholic Answers and is linked at the very top of every Catholic Answers site, and I would like to know where the Catholic Church is finding these teachings in the Bible or in tradition to justify some of these answers.

I understand that the standard Catholic answer is that the Church has the authority to teach these things, and I am not here to argue that, only to find out where in our sacred traditions or in the Bible, these teachings come from (if there is a place). The reason I ask is because I don’t recall, either in tradition or in the Bible anything coming close to what is suggested on the site.

For instance, it was suggested that prior to getting married, you shouldn’t even sleep (actual sleep) with a spouse in any way. Is napping really something Jesus was opposed to?

It also stated that if you are unmarried, you shouldn’t “make out” with your potential spouse, even if you are engaged.

Additionally, it was suggested that one should only act in a way that they would with their boyfriend/girlfriend’s parents around. Really?

Sex is for marriage, I understand that teaching, but this…This makes no sense at all. But even if it doesn’t, from the Catholic perspective, it doesn’t really matter. The Church has the authority to teach on these matters but what I want to know is, where are these teachings coming from? Where in tradition or scripture are these views coming from because they don’t seem to make much sense and I don’t recall seeing them anywhere in either of those two sources.

at his first coming Jesus said to this effect: ‘the pharisees & teachers of the Law, hold the key to the Kingdom, but they themselves do not go in and they do not allow the ‘faithful’ to go in too’!..they place heavy burdens on the poor, but they will not lift even their little finger to help them in the least! (refer Scripture for exact wording)…

they are immune to the same Law that they preach!

“what is sauce for the goose is NOT sauce for the gander”!

quote from the internet: That’s the end result of playing with the black magic of worldly power. You end up destroying the unity of the church of life and light. Forsake the Kingdom of God, and you naturally create rebels. If you claim the authority of God, but don’t do what God would do, then what do you turn into? You are like a dog asleep in a manger, not eating the food of life, and blocking others as you sleep. – sander hicks

 

[teenphilo1]

Please explain how the ones who preach this law are ‘immune’ to it?

 

[jinc1019]

Please explain how the ones who preach this law are ‘immune’ to it?

Let’s just not get into it…it’s totally off topic.

 

[jinc1019]

These things may not be official Church doctrine, but Catholic priests and theologians are teaching them as if they are guidelines to be followed.

I can understand the principles behind them, but my question has still not been answered. Where in the Bible or in tradition do we see these kinds of things being suggested?

Also, if this isn’t official Church teaching on sexuality, where can I get the OFFICIAL teaching on sexuality?

Ultimately, it seems like these things are completely ridiculous. How are you supposed to date an individual with the potential of ever getting married if you can’t have ANY intimacy at all? It seems foolish and totally unrealistic. Sex is one thing, taking a nap together is on a totally different planet.

 

[teenphilo1]

Near occasion of sin. Some can handle it, some can’t. I think that these guidelines apply mostly to teens as opposed to those truly seeking marriage.

 

[friendster324]

These things may not be official Church doctrine, but Catholic priests and theologians are teaching them as if they are guidelines to be followed.

I can understand the principles behind them, but my question has still not been answered. Where in the Bible or in tradition do we see these kinds of things being suggested?

Also, if this isn’t official Church teaching on sexuality, where can I get the OFFICIAL teaching on sexuality?

Ultimately, it seems like these things are completely ridiculous. How are you supposed to date an individual with the potential of ever getting married if you can’t have ANY intimacy at all? It seems foolish and totally unrealistic. Sex is one thing, taking a nap together is on a totally different planet.

The Church teaches to not sin and to avoid near occasions of sin. Obviously having premarital sex is a sin, and for a lot of people, the things listed on the website would be considered near occasions. So are those hard fast rules? Not necessarily, but for many people, they are wise to follow. When a couple doesn’t have clear set (early) boundaries, it’s super easy to just take baby steps further and further until lines are crossed. I definitely know this from experience and from stories from others. Looking back, I wish someone had told me to set earlier boundaries. I might have thought it was ridiculous but it at least would have given me a chance to reconsider what I thought was okay. When you ask if couples can’t have any intimacy, are you referring to sexual intimacy or general intimacy? If the former, then perhaps some is okay but certainly it needs to be watered down so to speak. A simple kiss is a form of sexual intimacy but isn’t going to get (most) people aroused. If the latter, then you have an interesting view on intimacy. Non sexual intimacy is perfectly okay and completely necessary to have a well rounded relationship, especially in marriage. Another thing to consider is that, from what I understand, that website is geared towards teenagers whose hormones are raging a mile a minute and need way more guidelines than someone who has had their sexual urges in check for some time.

 

[Burdensome1]

Is napping really something Jesus was opposed to?

This is internet code for “I don’t want to submit to the authority of the Church”. Pitting Jesus against the Church is kinda stupid. The Church teaches us to avoid near occasions of sin. Lying down in private with a person you aren’t married to but are attracted to is a near occasion of sin.

If you don’t want to be Catholic, don’t be, but quit this cowardly reasoning. The Church calls you to a life of heroic virtue. Don’t want that? Don’t do it. Do want that? Man up and start thinking of your soul and the soul of your potential spouse before anything else.

 

[Mortification]

As Burdensome has said, pitting Jesus against the Church is useless, as Jesus gave the Church here on earth the the authority to speak in His name.

So basically, there’s your answer OP for where these teachings are coming from. From Jesus, basically.

To think one knows more than the Church is not an act of humility. The Church knows what is best. And yes, these teachings and suggestions may seem miniscule and incompatible with modern dating, but that is because the Church sees things so much differently than how the world and society sees things. It will be hard to find a spouse and date while following Church guidelines, but the one who you found through these suggestions and guidelines will be the one you truly know who cares and loves you, because they stuck with you through all the inconveniences and liked you for who you are, not the convenience that came with dating you.

 

[PennyinCanada]

There are good posts above, and they DO make sense. Don’t get on the train to Chicago if you have no intentions of going to Chicago!

When you are engaged, and a Catholic, it is a very short time of your life. This is your opportunity to demonstrate and model to family and friends what chaste virtue looks like! It’s the way of the saints, and you are called to give good example to the young people who are watching you! Your brothers and sisters in Christ. We are different from the world.

1Tim 5:2 You should treat younger men as brothers, older women as mothers and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

When you do little sacrifices to remain chaste before marriage, offer it to God who sees your efforts and will reward you. Those who are faithful in little things will be given more! Who does not want more blessing from God!

I remember reading one of the saints who made the decision to never cross her legs. Although that seems ridiculous to the worldly mind, it was her love and enthusiasm toward Christ to offer that little sacrifice, an act of love. We all should be so willing to find little things to offer God. At the end of our life, He won’t say that he never knew you! Indeed, daily acts of love were done, looking how to please God. What a relief, really, because I’m not about to travel to a foreign country to bring the gospel, or be slaughtered cruelly because of making the sign of the cross. Small things are pleasing to God and train us for more difficult tasks that lie ahead on the journey.

God bless.

 

[jinc1019]

I am not saying following these rules won’t keep teens from pre-martial sex, but they are totally unrealistic, and there is no denying that.

But even more important, I don’t believe it’s good to post those guidelines as if they are teachings of the Church when really they are just suggestions (obviously not the sex ones, but all the other ones). If you are teen logging on to read what is on that site, you are going to assume this is what the official Church teachings are, when in reality, they are not official teachings based on tradition or scripture. I think that’s disingenuous.

 

[jinc1019]

There are good posts above, and they DO make sense. Don’t get on the train to Chicago if you have no intentions of going to Chicago!

When you are engaged, and a Catholic, it is a very short time of your life. This is your opportunity to demonstrate and model to family and friends what chaste virtue looks like! It’s the way of the saints, and you are called to give good example to the young people who are watching you! Your brothers and sisters in Christ. We are different from the world.

1Tim 5:2 You should treat younger men as brothers, older women as mothers and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

When you do little sacrifices to remain chaste before marriage, offer it to God who sees your efforts and will reward you. Those who are faithful in little things will be given more! Who does not want more blessing from God!

I remember reading one of the saints who made the decision to never cross her legs. Although that seems ridiculous to the worldly mind, it was her love and enthusiasm toward Christ to offer that little sacrifice, an act of love. We all should be so willing to find little things to offer God. At the end of our life, He won’t say that he never knew you! Indeed, daily acts of love were done, looking how to please God. What a relief, really, because I’m not about to travel to a foreign country to bring the gospel, or be slaughtered cruelly because of making the sign of the cross. Small things are pleasing to God and train us for more difficult tasks that lie ahead on the journey.

God bless.

I don’t agree that forbidding napping with a fiancé is good advice, that’s absurd.

 

[The_Bucket]

I don’t agree that forbidding napping with a fiancé is good advice, that’s absurd.

I don’t think it’s absurd, but I’ll concur that “forbidding” such activity isn’t stamped with the imprimatur. I slept in the same bed with my now-wife before we were married a few times and there wasn’t any sex involved. There was some cuddling for awhile, but when we were actually asleep, we were physically separated. Even today we can’t fall asleep while touching. It’s distracting.

But look, the suggestions have merit. I’m not going to deny the fact that the temptation was there. The only thing keeping it away was the supreme respect I had for my wife and the knowledge that trying something would disrespect her and probably end our relationship. I might have got what the instinctual part of me wanted, but in the end, we’d both have lost respect for one another and I’d feel like a failure. My job was to protect her purity, not encroach on it!

In the end, there was maybe a time or two where the physical stuff went too far. No reason for exceedingly long make-out sessions when you’re dating or even engaged. It’s just revvs the engine while in park or neutral. And it’s so, so easy to want to move that switch into gear. It was an extremely frustrating situation. While it didn’t result in things being touched before they should have, it certainly crossed that line into lusting.

So I daresay that the guidelines provided are good in the abstract, but we shouldn’t tell people that sleeping in the same bed is sinful or something. If you’re in a long-distance situation and visiting, it would make sense that you’d be curled up together at the end of the day. If you fall asleep, OK. Though I’d suggest at least planning on someone taking the couch because if a pattern evolves, then maybe the next step is something you’d regret.

 

[Joe_5859]

Much of what you reference are popular, practical articulations, but not “official” teaching per se.

The Church generally doesn’t overkill in the area of official doctrine. We are called to be chaste. But everyone likes to ask super-specific questions about “How far is too far?” So good Catholics come up with memorable cues like “If you wouldn’t do something with your parents in the room, you shouldn’t do it.”

These are helpful aids. They do not contradict Church teaching. But they’re not “official” teaching.

If you’re looking for an authoritative, lengthy, detailed list of exactly what people can and cannot do in a relationship, you’re never going to find it. The Church just doesn’t work that way.

This is not to say that there aren’t right and wrong answers. Of course there are. But some aspects require personal discernment from a conscience well-formed by Catholic teaching.

 

[jinc1019]

Much of what you reference are popular, practical articulations, but not “official” teaching per se.

The Church generally doesn’t overkill in the area of official doctrine. We are called to be chaste. But everyone likes to ask super-specific questions about “How far is too far?” So good Catholics come up with memorable cues like “If you wouldn’t do something with your parents in the room, you shouldn’t do it.”

These are helpful aids. They do not contradict Church teaching. But they’re not “official” teaching.

If you’re looking for an authoritative, lengthy, detailed list of exactly what people can and cannot do in a relationship, you’re never going to find it. The Church just doesn’t work that way.

This is not to say that there aren’t right and wrong answers. Of course there are. But some aspects require personal discernment from a conscience well-formed by Catholic teaching.

Fair answer…My point is that the people who put the website together should make that clear. If I was younger and read through it, or even older but less informed, I would assume it’s official doctrine.

 

[twoangels]

I was reading through some of the answers listed on Chastity.com, which is a site affiliated with our very own Catholic Answers and is linked at the very top of every Catholic Answers site, and I would like to know where the Catholic Church is finding these teachings in the Bible or in tradition to justify some of these answers.

I understand that the standard Catholic answer is that the Church has the authority to teach these things, and I am not here to argue that, only to find out where in our sacred traditions or in the Bible, these teachings come from (if there is a place). The reason I ask is because I don’t recall, either in tradition or in the Bible anything coming close to what is suggested on the site.

For instance, it was suggested that prior to getting married, you shouldn’t even sleep (actual sleep) with a spouse in any way. Is napping really something Jesus was opposed to?

It also stated that if you are unmarried, you shouldn’t “make out” with your potential spouse, even if you are engaged.

Additionally, it was suggested that one should only act in a way that they would with their boyfriend/girlfriend’s parents around. Really?

Sex is for marriage, I understand that teaching, but this…This makes no sense at all. But even if it doesn’t, from the Catholic perspective, it doesn’t really matter. The Church has the authority to teach on these matters but what I want to know is, where are these teachings coming from? Where in tradition or scripture are these views coming from because they don’t seem to make much sense and I don’t recall seeing them anywhere in either of those two sources.

Its important to recognize that our dating culture is not in the bible or sacred tradition. Marriages were typically arranged. Romantic love was first understood to be a temptation to commit adultery. Most early stories involving romantic love were about adulterous affairs. It was understood that these intense passions promised more than they offered. Its not till you get into the period of the early romance novel (books by Jane Austin) that attitudes about romantic love changed and we started valuing falling in love before marriage. Whether courtship or dating, our culture has become disjointed. People now follow their hearts and wait till they’ve tested the relationship out before they knight their relationship by getting married. This is not God’s design.

The Church has not condemned married for love. We’re allowed to date. But sexual temptations are strong in our dating culture. Thus much of the advise is about how to flee sexual temptation. Personally, I think the advise typically given is very incomplete and sometimes misguided. I don’t think it alone really helps with true integration. I personally intend to really educate my children on the evolution of courtship and to understand that chastity has its unique challenges for both the experienced and inexperienced. The inexperienced are more likely to make mistakes out of niavity and ignorance. (not necessarily intercourse, but many other intimate sexual things that should be reserved for a marital relationship) They lack the self knowledge that helps morally guide them. The experienced have built in habits that make it difficult to resist. Mistakes are bound to happen, thus you shouldn’t be hard on yourself. You should learn from your mistakes and strive to simply be wise: wise in who you date, how you date, when you date.

The site can give you some wisdom, however imperfect, but it should be taken with a grain of salt.