Chastity/celibacy as abnormal repression?

[Rosebud77]

I am putting this in vocations as here in ireland a great trouble is come upon Maynooth seminary and the aspect of celibacy is much in the public eye. Some of the reader comments on news reports here are eye opening… Celibacy seen as totallly abnormal; , repression and the cause of all ills within the Church. that unless we are sexually active we are doomed to become terrible people. Sex seems now to be thought of as mandatory?

I have been celibate all my long life and when the subject comes up as it does at my market stall and in shops now with Maynooth in the news, I simply look at the speaker and say." Do I look or act repressed?" I am not and that is a fact… In fact I sat to them, celibacy means I do nto have the responsibility of family so have time and energy for commitment elsewhere… my table is piled high with hand made goods and many raise the subject of how i find time t do it all… I am celibate I say, I can be kin to a needy world.

I know; I am old and of a different generation. But even so.

And there is absolutely no understanding of religious celibacy any more.

Any thoughts?

 

[ChurchSoldier]

There seems to be little thought in the Western world of anything other than one’s own satisfaction. The concept of self sacrifice, particularly to God is much diminished from past generations.

Pax

 

[Potomac]

Any thoughts?

I think that seminary is full of unfaithful men who have been pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes for a long time and is part of the reason that Ireland has so fallen in recent years (since Ireland only has two seminaries). I don’t believe the authentic Catholic faith is even taught there. Not to say they’re all bad, but some of the so-called priests to come out of that seminary are likely the reason for the faithlessness shown in the article comments you mentioned. When’s the last time you heard the words “Sanctifying Grace” from the pulpit by the average priest? As goes the Catholic Church, so goes the world. One seminarian in Ireland I spoke to had a friend who was kicked out because he reported the homosexual activity of two others. The two others weren’t kicked out. What does that tell you? Even Dublin’s own Archbishop is now sending his seminarians to Rome!

 

[pepipop]

What I find most ‘fascinating’ about the barrage of Maynooth stories, ATM, is WHY the national press, the 6pm nightly news and also an hour nightly news chat show find it to be in the slightest bit interesting. The chat show gave up 30 minutes of its’ programming to discuss the issue, last night.

How is the alleged practices at a Catholic seminary going to effect the government,the secular media, etc…

Practicing Catholics will still be attending mass, may take the stories under their notice but what exactly has it to do with ‘national’ news coverage, for the past 3-4 days? It’s not like it effects the running of the country in any way!

(Aside from the very obvious CC bashing.)

The Irish media has proven time and time again to be secular in its’ opinions, For every 9 stories printed for pro-gay marriage there was 1 anti-SSM and similarly with abortion/prolife issues.

So why do the MSM care less about a Catholic seminary for priest vocations.

Are they ‘upset’ that the priests are not being trained properly, or that they are remaining celibate, or that they are partying, etc… and feel it’s their duty to inform the public. (sarcasm)

I know nothing about the Maynooth situation, but find it all very bizarre at the moment - i.e. the MSM hyperboled version of events. No doubt, there will be forthcoming reasons for why some seminarians were sent to Rome, and all the other ‘stories’ circulating.

But as to why, especially, in this day and age, young men who wish to become priests would then want to party and have sex, is unfathomable - why not stay as they are and have a ball!

All sounds very ‘far-fetched’ and a load of nonsense to me.

 

[Dorothy]

I am putting this in vocations as here in ireland a great trouble is come upon Maynooth seminary and the aspect of celibacy is much in the public eye. Some of the reader comments on news reports here are eye opening… Celibacy seen as totallly abnormal; , repression and the cause of all ills within the Church. that unless we are sexually active we are doomed to become terrible people. Sex seems now to be thought of as mandatory?

I have been celibate all my long life and when the subject comes up as it does at my market stall and in shops now with Maynooth in the news, I simply look at the speaker and say." Do I look or act repressed?" I am not and that is a fact… In fact I sat to them, celibacy means I do nto have the responsibility of family so have time and energy for commitment elsewhere… my table is piled high with hand made goods and many raise the subject of how i find time t do it all… I am celibate I say, I can be kin to a needy world.

I know; I am old and of a different generation. But even so.

And there is absolutely no understanding of religious celibacy any more.

Any thoughts?

By prayer and the sacraments that strengthens us with His grace we can be celibate.

We need food and water to live; sexual relations are not necessary to fulfill our lives.

Marriage is a sacrament and many graces are given to a husband and wife who put God first in their lives. God’s grace is given to them in many ways, including their sexual relations with one another.
Married couples need to enter marriage knowing restraint and self-control are necessary many times throughout marriage.

We are a fallen people and need His grace every day. A holy people will be a happy and peaceful people.

With God all things are possible. We cannot live according to His Way without His grace.

Praise be to Jesus Christ, and His Holy Blessed Mother.

 

[Rosebud77]

What I find most ‘fascinating’ about the barrage of Maynooth stories, ATM, is WHY the national press, the 6pm nightly news and also an hour nightly news chat show find it to be in the slightest bit interesting. The chat show gave up 30 minutes of its’ programming to discuss the issue, last night.

How is the alleged practices at a Catholic seminary going to effect the government,the secular media, etc…

Practicing Catholics will still be attending mass, may take the stories under their notice but what exactly has it to do with ‘national’ news coverage, for the past 3-4 days? It’s not like it effects the running of the country in any way!

(Aside from the very obvious CC bashing.)

The Irish media has proven time and time again to be secular in its’ opinions, For every 9 stories printed for pro-gay marriage there was 1 anti-SSM and similarly with abortion/prolife issues.

So why do the MSM care less about a Catholic seminary for priest vocations.

Are they ‘upset’ that the priests are not being trained properly, or that they are remaining celibate, or that they are partying, etc… and feel it’s their duty to inform the public. (sarcasm)

**I know nothing about the Maynooth situation, but find it all very bizarre at the moment - i.e. the MSM hyperboled version of events. No doubt, there will be forthcoming reasons for why some seminarians were sent to Rome, and all the other ‘stories’ circulating.
**
But as to why, especially, in this day and age, young men who wish to become priests would then want to party and have sex, is unfathomable - why not stay as they are and have a ball!

All sounds very ‘far-fetched’ and a load of nonsense to me.

I think you may be unaware of the role played by the Church here in Ireland and the effect and scale of the child abuse situation that has been ongoing many years now.

The Church owned and ran literally all the schools. all the hospitals, all the industiral schools, laundries, mother and baby schools… You can hardly drive a few miles hee without seeing a church … they ran the country.

Maybe check the Irish news websites? independent ie, breaking news. ie, RTE news.

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has always been the only real hope the Church here has and the Bishops are now attacking him for outing the problem

Because of some work I do, and also book research ( planned writing when I move) I knew this was at some stage going to happen… Have been dreading it and the items coming out today are worse than we feared. Some men are bringing sexual assault cases

Ireland is already in the grip of secularism to an increasing degree; gay marriage ( who would have thought it) the demand fro legal abortion, huge rise in drugs and violent crime.

There was a book written way back in the 1920s called Father Ralph. I think it is still online somewhere? Could have been written today

Many wil fall further away. There are always what I call the true holy ones; ordinary men and women whose faith is so deep and true that what others do does not impact them. One dear man a car dealer who donated cars to me so I could work, asked me one day as we sat in the car ifit were all true. Yes I said, and more. He sighed and that was that. He is home now…

My landlord here is a man of deep faith and asked the same one day. His response was, well they have let us all down and I think that sums it up…

Harder than ever for young men now.

Oh the Irish Franciscans quietly decided a few years ago to sent their postulants to the US for their novitiate

 

[Rosebud77]

I think that seminary is full of unfaithful men who have been pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes for a long time and is part of the reason that Ireland has so fallen in recent years (since Ireland only has two seminaries). I don’t believe the authentic Catholic faith is even taught there. Not to say they’re all bad, but some of the so-called priests to come out of that seminary are likely the reason for the faithlessness shown in the article comments you mentioned. When’s the last time you heard the words “Sanctifying Grace” from the pulpit by the average priest? As goes the Catholic Church, so goes the world. One seminarian in Ireland I spoke to had a friend who was kicked out because he reported the homosexual activity of two others. The two others weren’t kicked out. What does that tell you? Even Dublin’s own Archbishop is now sending his seminarians to Rome!

ACP are wading in. Praying for Archbishop DIarmuid Martin as he stays strong in the face of opposition

Seems of late the priests are scared to speak out. Lest they lose support. So few spoke out against gay marriage - in one case when a priest did parishioners walked out.

 

[Rosebud77]

There seems to be little thought in the Western world of anything other than one’s own satisfaction. The concept of self sacrifice, particularly to God is much diminished from past generations.

Pax

I never saw celibacy as a sacrifice. maybe those who find it such a burden should avoid the Church

 

[ShrodingersCat]

I don’t think celibacy is repressive, but it may be far more frustrating for people who habitually commit sins of a sexual nature (e.g. looking at porn). It feeds a desire and becomes an addiction. So I can imagine how people who have never practiced chastity might find the idea strange. They are comparing a life of chastity to a life of “not getting any” and how frustrating that would be for them.

I also think TV largely influences what people think is “normal” behaviour.

But I compare it to eating. It’s not “repressive” to eat healthily. Even if I have mad cravings for chocolate and sweets and burgers and chips every day of the week, I can’t eat them every day or my health will suffer. How is that not “repressive” too? Maybe because it will make me fat and then my husband will leave me and I will be forced to live a life of celibacy???

 

[Darter_Noster]

Hello - first proper post

When I was an Anglican, I decided I wanted to be a priest (I was in the Anglo-Catholic tradition). At the same time (this was in my late teens and early 20s), I was also realising that I could not go through the ordination process in the Church of England, in which I felt increasingly unwelcome and out of place due to my traditional Catholic views and theology. If I chose to covert to Catholicism, however, it meant being unable to pursue my vocation due to the requirement for celibacy, which I was not and am not prepared to undertake.

Why am I not prepared to take vows of celibacy? It has nothing whatsoever to do with being unable or unwilling to do without sex, and everything to do with being unwilling to forgo having children and a family of my own. That can be a very harsh choice to be forced to make for an awful lot of men, who are not somehow deficient because of it; the late, great Cardinal Basil Hume spoke of how the greatest regret and sorrow of his life was that he had to choose between his vocation and having a family, and of his lifelong struggle with loneliness.

To those who say that being celibate means that his congregation is the priest’s family, that no wife and children means no distractions, and that celibate clergy means fewer scandals - just look around at what is happening and consider whether that is even remotely likely to be true. There are many highly dedicated married clergy out there (including in the Roman Catholic Church), and many celibate clergy who fall way short of required standards - celibacy is no guarantee of quality.

None of this means that I do not value and revere celibacy as a holy lifestyle choice; I have the greatest respect and admiration for those to whom that particular gift is given. What I don’t like is the tendency to portray those unwilling to embrace celibacy as somehow lacking in the required holiness, discipline and commitment to be presbyters - a view not shared by Eastern Catholics, or the Orthodox, or much of the Western Catholic Church prior to the 11th century. Celibacy is not “doing without sex”; it is doing without the love of wife and children and grandchildren.

In time I will explore ordination to the Permanent Diaconate as a married man, but it seems a shame that when there is a great shortage of priests in Europe, and when a celibate clergy is riddled with sex scandals, married men with children are not seen as disciplined enough for the presbyterate.

 

[pepipop]

I think you may be unaware of the role played by the Church here in Ireland and the effect and scale of the child abuse situation that has been ongoing many years now.

The Church owned and ran literally all the schools. all the hospitals, all the industiral schools, laundries, mother and baby schools… You can hardly drive a few miles hee without seeing a church … they ran the country.

Maybe check the Irish news websites? independent ie, breaking news. ie, RTE news.

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has always been the only real hope the Church here has and the Bishops are now attacking him for outing the problem

Because of some work I do, and also book research ( planned writing when I move) I knew this was at some stage going to happen… Have been dreading it and the items coming out today are worse than we feared. Some men are bringing sexual assault cases

Ireland is already in the grip of secularism to an increasing degree; gay marriage ( who would have thought it) the demand fro legal abortion, huge rise in drugs and violent crime.

There was a book written way back in the 1920s called Father Ralph. I think it is still online somewhere? Could have been written today

Many wil fall further away. There are always what I call the true holy ones; ordinary men and women whose faith is so deep and true that what others do does not impact them. One dear man a car dealer who donated cars to me so I could work, asked me one day as we sat in the car ifit were all true. Yes I said, and more. He sighed and that was that. He is home now…

My landlord here is a man of deep faith and asked the same one day. His response was, well they have let us all down and I think that sums it up…

Harder than ever for young men now.

Oh the Irish Franciscans quietly decided a few years ago to sent their postulants to the US for their novitiate

I live in Ireland. and am aware of all the above.

However, this is MSM CC bashing time and nothing else.

By constantly bringing up the internal faults, of the CC, to the forefront and public arena, they are strengthening their case to introduce other secular issues, like abortion, no religion in schools, etc.

The media couldn’t care less what the CC gets up too, as long as it makes mistakes and/or scandals that they can report upon, so as to disenchant more Irish Catholics against the CC.

All, so that the government can introduce their/the EUs ongoing secular agenda, i.e. SSM (already fabulously won by the media coverage), abortion, no religion in schools - especially Catholicism, euthanasia, transgenderism, etc, etc.

If there are such problems, at Maynooth, of course they have to be dealt with and promptly - which is something I do not understand at all.

However, is the Maynooth issue in the interest of the general public? Yes, of course, but only because it can be used to indicate that the CC cannot be trusted, it is a ‘fake’ organisation, the leaders cover everything up, or whatever else the media wish to convey to their viewer/reader.

By doing so they would hope this will strengthen the argument to get Catholicism out of all the schools - and then the other issues, will be introduced over time with absolutely no opposition as consciences will not be formed through schooling, as kids will be schooled with a secular PC curriculum, i.e. “anything goes”.

 

[Rosebud77]

I live in Ireland. and am aware of all the above.

However, this is MSM CC bashing time and nothing else.

By constantly bringing up the internal faults, of the CC, to the forefront and public arena, they are strengthening their case to introduce other secular issues, like abortion, no religion in schools, etc.

The media couldn’t care less what the CC gets up too, as long as it makes mistakes and/or scandals that they can report upon, so as to disenchant more Irish Catholics against the CC.

All, so that the government can introduce their/the EUs ongoing secular agenda, i.e. SSM (already fabulously won by the media coverage), abortion, no religion in schools - especially Catholicism, euthanasia, transgenderism, etc, etc.

If there are such problems, at Maynooth, of course they have to be dealt with and promptly - which is something I do not understand at all.

However, is the Maynooth issue in the interest of the general public? Yes, of course, but only because it can be used to indicate that the CC cannot be trusted, it is a ‘fake’ organisation, the leaders cover everything up, or whatever else the media wish to convey to their viewer/reader.

By doing so they would hope this will strengthen the argument to get Catholicism out of all the schools - and then the other issues, will be introduced over time with absolutely no opposition as consciences will not be formed through schooling, as kids will be schooled with a secular PC curriculum, i.e. “anything goes”.

Trying to bold the last two paras… YES and this is what we , ie the church have laid ourselves open to … an it be trusted? I am no longer sure. I mean the organisation, the hierarchy… Can they be trusted? I do not think consciences are being much formed in even RC education any more

We have CEIST. But increasingly secualr theories like Steiner, Educate Together, Education Equality are eroding our values

all needs to be in the open; al the reports I have read have come from within the church and the “enemy within” ie ACP

There needs now to be absolute transparency and that is coming via the newspapers etc. No denials are possible either. Not a ? of distortion here this time any more than any of the other scandals.

This situation should never have happened. Our young men should have been safe and developed integrity and holiness…

 

[Sarcelle]

I am putting this in vocations as here in ireland a great trouble is come upon Maynooth seminary and the aspect of celibacy is much in the public eye. Some of the reader comments on news reports here are eye opening… Celibacy seen as totallly abnormal; , repression and the cause of all ills within the Church. that unless we are sexually active we are doomed to become terrible people. Sex seems now to be thought of as mandatory?

I have been celibate all my long life and when the subject comes up as it does at my market stall and in shops now with Maynooth in the news, I simply look at the speaker and say." Do I look or act repressed?" I am not and that is a fact… In fact I sat to them, celibacy means I do nto have the responsibility of family so have time and energy for commitment elsewhere… my table is piled high with hand made goods and many raise the subject of how i find time t do it all… I am celibate I say, I can be kin to a needy world.

I know; I am old and of a different generation. But even so.

And there is absolutely no understanding of religious celibacy any more.

Any thoughts?

Yet fat people are continuously made fun of and disparaged. Why the double standard? One will not die without sex but one will die without food. Yet starving yourself to lose weight is admired.

Why is it okay for control with food but not sex?

 

[Rosebud77]

PS I have read no “bashing” by the way.

 

[Rosebud77]

I don’t think celibacy is repressive, but it may be far more frustrating for people who habitually commit sins of a sexual nature (e.g. looking at porn). It feeds a desire and becomes an addiction. So I can imagine how people who have never practiced chastity might find the idea strange. They are comparing a life of chastity to a life of “not getting any” and how frustrating that would be for them.

I also think TV largely influences what people think is “normal” behaviour.

But I compare it to eating. It’s not “repressive” to eat healthily. Even if I have mad cravings for chocolate and sweets and burgers and chips every day of the week, I can’t eat them every day or my health will suffer. How is that not “repressive” too? Maybe because it will make me fat and then my husband will leave me and I will be forced to live a life of celibacy???

Smiling! To see some of the obsession with sexual behaviour, have a look at the relevant forums on boards.ie. Anything goes… and someone will complain that they are not enjoying sex so there must be something wrong with them… all makes me thankful to live out here in the boonies with no TV etc . The pressure kids must be under .

My landlord has 4 under tens and a deep faith and sees what is happening and has fought tooth and nail to keep the tiny rural school nearby open for them… They fought off a challenge from a Steiner school.

 

[Rosebud77]

Hello - first proper post

When I was an Anglican, I decided I wanted to be a priest (I was in the Anglo-Catholic tradition). At the same time (this was in my late teens and early 20s), I was also realising that I could not go through the ordination process in the Church of England, in which I felt increasingly unwelcome and out of place due to my traditional Catholic views and theology. If I chose to covert to Catholicism, however, it meant being unable to pursue my vocation due to the requirement for celibacy, which I was not and am not prepared to undertake.

Why am I not prepared to take vows of celibacy? It has nothing whatsoever to do with being unable or unwilling to do without sex, and everything to do with being unwilling to forgo having children and a family of my own. That can be a very harsh choice to be forced to make for an awful lot of men, who are not somehow deficient because of it; the late, great Cardinal Basil Hume spoke of how the greatest regret and sorrow of his life was that he had to choose between his vocation and having a family, and of his lifelong struggle with loneliness.

To those who say that being celibate means that his congregation is the priest’s family, that no wife and children means no distractions, and that celibate clergy means fewer scandals - just look around at what is happening and consider whether that is even remotely likely to be true. There are many highly dedicated married clergy out there (including in the Roman Catholic Church), and many celibate clergy who fall way short of required standards - celibacy is no guarantee of quality.

None of this means that I do not value and revere celibacy as a holy lifestyle choice; I have the greatest respect and admiration for those to whom that particular gift is given. What I don’t like is the tendency to portray those unwilling to embrace celibacy as somehow lacking in the required holiness, discipline and commitment to be presbyters - a view not shared by Eastern Catholics, or the Orthodox, or much of the Western Catholic Church prior to the 11th century. Celibacy is not “doing without sex”; it is doing without the love of wife and children and grandchildren.

In time I will explore ordination to the Permanent Diaconate as a married man, but it seems a shame that when there is a great shortage of priests in Europe, and when a celibate clergy is riddled with sex scandals, married men with children are not seen as disciplined enough for the presbyterate.

A grand first post… I share your Anglican background but not a rosy coloured view of married clergy. The divorce rate is higher than average.

I was very unaware as a young person and looking back remember at least one unmarried vicar who was probably gay BUT set that aside for the Church… C of E that was … There was a holiness about that man and a humanity I have rarely seen.

Most of my own Church experience after I became ill was monastic. First Anglican then RC later. Women who lived their celibacy not always without frustration but many of them with a depth and gentleness that supported me through impossible sufferings in the love of Jesus. There are two such, now with Jesus, who I feel still in my life

What we see now is clergy not keeping what they have vowed. That can happen in any walk of life but this is far worse that there were allowed to do so … and being trained in an atmosphere that does not observe and respect that aspect.

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin is right but he will suffer for it and Ireland and the Church will suffer for the actions at Maynooth … good that it is out “in the public”… utterly sad that it was there to be outed

 

[GEddie]

So was our LORD “abnormally repressed,” as He lived to the age of 39, but was never married nor had a female relationship?

ICXC NIKA

 

[Lost_Sheep]

There seems to be little thought in the Western world of anything other than one’s own satisfaction. The concept of self sacrifice, particularly to God is much diminished from past generations.

Pax

^^^^This.

 

[Monica4316]

There’s an article on this page by Fr John Hardon about consecrated chastity and priesthood:therealpresence.org/archives/Chastity.htm

I think.the idea that is often missed is that consecrated chastity for God actually allows the person to love God more whole heartedly and undividedly. Its not only having more time for service, it also affects the heart and the relationship with God, when truly lived out. Yes marriage is holy, married people can serve God too, and we are all called to be Saints, but this fact remains. Sure there are priests and nuns and monks who are not faithful despite this fact, but that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with the practice of priestly or religious celibacy. It is something holy and the world doesn’t get it because its enslaved to enjoyment.

 

[Sarcelle]

Hello - first proper post

When I was an Anglican, I decided I wanted to be a priest (I was in the Anglo-Catholic tradition). At the same time (this was in my late teens and early 20s), I was also realising that I could not go through the ordination process in the Church of England, in which I felt increasingly unwelcome and out of place due to my traditional Catholic views and theology. If I chose to covert to Catholicism, however, it meant being unable to pursue my vocation due to the requirement for celibacy, which I was not and am not prepared to undertake.

Why am I not prepared to take vows of celibacy? It has nothing whatsoever to do with being unable or unwilling to do without sex, and everything to do with being unwilling to forgo having children and a family of my own. That can be a very harsh choice to be forced to make for an awful lot of men, who are not somehow deficient because of it; the late, great Cardinal Basil Hume spoke of how the greatest regret and sorrow of his life was that he had to choose between his vocation and having a family, and of his lifelong struggle with loneliness.

To those who say that being celibate means that his congregation is the priest’s family, that no wife and children means no distractions, and that celibate clergy means fewer scandals - just look around at what is happening and consider whether that is even remotely likely to be true. There are many highly dedicated married clergy out there (including in the Roman Catholic Church), and many celibate clergy who fall way short of required standards - celibacy is no guarantee of quality.

None of this means that I do not value and revere celibacy as a holy lifestyle choice; I have the greatest respect and admiration for those to whom that particular gift is given. What I don’t like is the tendency to portray those unwilling to embrace celibacy as somehow lacking in the required holiness, discipline and commitment to be presbyters - a view not shared by Eastern Catholics, or the Orthodox, or much of the Western Catholic Church prior to the 11th century. Celibacy is not “doing without sex”; it is doing without the love of wife and children and grandchildren.

In time I will explore ordination to the Permanent Diaconate as a married man, but it seems a shame that when there is a great shortage of priests in Europe, and when a celibate clergy is riddled with sex scandals, married men with children are not seen as disciplined enough for the presbyterate.

Do you think that a married clergy will be protection from scandal? I doubt it.

It is our conscupiscence that inclines us towards sin not our marital status. Single people are not more inclined to sin than married people.