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Sarcelle
Guest
I’ve had Protestants say that Jesus was God so He does not really count.
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pepipop
Guest
That’s all well and good but splashing it over the national news isn’t going to help the situation one iota. It is not a government nor joe public issue, it is exclusively to do with the CC and only it can carry out any investigations and carry out the appropriate actions. Nothing ‘illegal’ is going on, all the issues are in relation to CC teachings.
It is only been latched onto, by the media, so as to disparage the church even further - which is pathetic.
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Rosebud77
Guest
My dear, on this we differ,
These things are real and they happened and that has made the Church fair prey. Joe public? The people the Church has let down, and made themselves fair game .
As for “nothing illegal”? Why “pathetic”? let there be no more of the behind closed doors techniques. That has created the current situation.
Sadness and more sadness,
Goodnight and sleep well
D
Dorothy
Guest
The Scripture says “He is like us in all things but sin.”
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pepipop
Guest
Because it should not be ‘national news fodder’. The ‘news’ value is due to the sensationalism of celibate seminarians using gay dating apps to pick up men, getting drunk etc… and then all the subsequent ridicule such stories drum up for the anti-Catholic church brigade.
If these stories are to be relayed they can be reported in Catholic papers, as it is a Catholic church matter - not a legal, or national news one - as, unfortunately, the heinous sex scandals were, as the abuse was a crime.
It is the only occasion when the media ‘recognise/acknowledge’ the importance of the Catholic church, in Ireland, i.e. when it can be ridiculed, in some way. However, if there were any positive stories to be released about the CC, they will not be reported on.
One example being, the poll taken asking parents if they wished to retain Catholic schools, which statistics could indicate 90 plus of parents wish Catholicism to remain in schools. This was not reported in the media, but only in Catholic press outlets. irishcatholic.ie/article/questioning-patronage-surveys
So they pick and chose, only when it is disrespectful or negative to the church and is helpful to their secular agenda.
A goodnight to you too.
E
Entwhistler
Guest
Like Dorothy said, you should remind them that He was also fully human. We tend to either emphasize only His Godness or his humanity. It is hard for us to do both.
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Rosebud77
Guest
How is this ridiculing?And even if so,surely rightly? It makes me ashamed to be Catholic sometimes as this IS what is happening in OUR CHURCH.Because it should not be ‘national news fodder’. The ‘news’ value is due to the sensationalism of celibate seminarians using gay dating apps to pick up men, getting drunk etc… and then all the subsequent ridicule such stories drum up for the anti-Catholic church brigade.
If these stories are to be relayed they can be reported in Catholic papers, as it is a Catholic church matter - not a legal, or national news one - as, unfortunately, the heinous sex scandals were, as the abuse was a crime.
It is the only occasion when the media ‘recognise/acknowledge’ the importance of the Catholic church, in Ireland, i.e. when it can be ridiculed, in some way. However, if there were any positive stories to be released about the CC, they will not be reported on.
One example being, the poll taken asking parents if they wished to retain Catholic schools, which statistics could indicate 90 plus of parents wish Catholicism to remain in schools. This was not reported in the media, but only in Catholic press outlets. irishcatholic.ie/article/questioning-patronage-surveys
So they pick and chose, only when it is disrespectful or negative to the church and is helpful to their secular agenda.
A goodnight to you too.
How can they be else but what you call “disrespectful”? What is there it respect in what had been going on at Maynooth for so long?
Of course the press thrives on “bad news” . In this case there should not have been any such news to report. As far as I can see, nothing has been distorted or exaggerated.
And most of the news now that you would call negative and ridiculing is coming from former seminarians and staff. truth that has been too long suppressed
All our priests were trained at Maynooth which explains a lot sadly .Time for widening and change as nothing else now will save the Church here .
Just seen that a US diocese is also sending seminarians to Rome. Great… Ireland is far too “inbred” And he Franciscans sending their postulants to the Us.
The sweet wild challenging wind of change… Welcoming it even in the great sadness of all of this.
Oh two small points… Seminarians are not vowed to celibacy but as Catholic they should be living chaste lives in preparation for that.
There are now at least two cases of former seminarians bringing sex abuse allegations against Maynooth staff… Gardai are involved… There will be more
This needs clearing up and the press are right to be shocked and our Church belongs to the people… We have a right to know what is going on.
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Rosebud77
Guest
Wise words, Thank you, A few years ago someone I “knew” on a forum, a seminarian in the US, asked for prayers for a friend /fellow seminarian who was struggling with “unchaste thoughts” and I opined that if it were such a struggle then maybe he should think again re his vocation…
When I was fairly new in Ireland ie about 15 years ago, at mass in a country parish, the young curate and another young priest who was visiting were on the altar
The looks and smiles that passed between those two were to say the least amorous, excited. Far more than friendship. I did not understand then but later a US friend said that if they were gay in Ireland they could not marry they entered the priesthood.
It was totally inappropriate at mass and a total distraction I had met the resident curate and been impressed,
I just wonder how carefully they select seminarians? are we short of priests they are getting less careful?
I know; I am a woman and it seems it is easier for us to embrace celibacy? Certainly I have never thought of it as repression.
Learning curve and thanks for answers!t
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Rosebud77
Guest
Great post and thank you. The same of course is true of celibate singlehood. My heart and life belong totally and fully to the Lord Jesus Christ … And of course abuse does not invalidate the ideal.
The modern buzz word is “Freedom”. with “human rights” a close second…
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Darter_Noster
Guest
I never said they were. What I did say was that people who are prepared to take vows of celibacy are not intrinsically more holy and devoted than those who aren’t. There are many reasons for not getting married - as someone else has pointed out, in Ireland and in many other countries vows of celibacy and an all-male environment have been used as cover for sexual deviancy by a lot of men, not just recently but for many centuries.
To some extent that’s unavoidable and, as you point out, being married doesn’t mean you’re immune from deviant or scandalous sexual behaviour either.
What I am questioning is the assumption that men who take vows of celibacy are, by virtue of that, holier, more devoted and more suited to the presbyterate than those who don’t. Wanting to have a wife and children, and the love and support of a family, is evidence of being a normal human being, not someone who just can’t keep it in his pants.
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Rosebud77
Guest
Agree mostly and this was my point.That someone with a high sex drive ( and I gather that this varies greatly among individuals) is basically not suited to the priesthood
I know; there have been examples of many overcoming later in life BUT again, maybe the yearschange this. Certainly youare right in that entering the priesthood d oes not mean you are more holy . That comes near a kind of idolatry. And certainly privilege,
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Sarcelle
Guest
Actually priests or consecrated religious are routine mocked and disparaged in popular culture. Too many Catholics do likewise.
Yet unquestioned is the all too rampant assertion that married people are somehow more holy and better than single people. I’ve come across this perception numerous times.
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GEddie
Guest
Or the tacit premise that it is somehow WRONG for someone of adult age not to be in, or actively seeking, a spousal or familial relationship.
ICXC NIKA
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Sarcelle
Guest
True.
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Rosebud77
Guest
The repercusssions of this are as we feared, like when a stone is thrown into a pool.
irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/martin-links-maynooth-controversy-to-handling-of-child-sex-abuse-1.2748190?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Freligion-and-beliefs%2Fmartin-links-maynooth-controversy-to-handling-of-child-sex-abuse-1.2748190
Cannot access rhe story but the G LEN and LBGT involvement … GLEN is the Irish Gay and Lesbian Network
Whole can of worms now. Off to pray … Pray for Ireland please and for Archbishop Martin with so many ranged against him over this,
irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/martin-links-maynooth-controversy-to-handling-of-child-sex-abuse-1.2748190?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Freligion-and-beliefs%2Fmartin-links-maynooth-controversy-to-handling-of-child-sex-abuse-1.2748190
Cannot access rhe story but the G LEN and LBGT involvement … GLEN is the Irish Gay and Lesbian Network
Whole can of worms now. Off to pray … Pray for Ireland please and for Archbishop Martin with so many ranged against him over this,
R
Rosebud77
Guest
Happily as the days pass and tempers cool there is a little hope that the situation will be ameliorated.
There are some very complex and worrying things being faced.
The lay ideas re celibacy remain hositle and what would be called her ein Ireland “ignorant” and ACP etc are still giving cause for concern with their demands for priestly marriage.
But Archbishop Martin is putting forward ideas that could bear fruit. Especially about the potential for problems when a group of young men are together 24/7 in a seminary. He is talking re a more parish-based training as well as theology etc.
Some of what is coming out is distrurbing indeed but maybe this way the cobwebs and bugs will get aired, sorted and a good spring cleaning happen.
As Archbishop Martin avers, the time has passed for the huge seminaries like Maynooth.
One interesting thing in Ireland too…
Some of the religious orders are starting to make headway
dominicans.ie/the-light-of-truth-10/
dominicans.ie/diaconate-ordinations-2016/
and see the sidebar here…
irishdominicanvocations.blogspot.ie/
I met some of the young novices a while back,
There are some very complex and worrying things being faced.
The lay ideas re celibacy remain hositle and what would be called her ein Ireland “ignorant” and ACP etc are still giving cause for concern with their demands for priestly marriage.
But Archbishop Martin is putting forward ideas that could bear fruit. Especially about the potential for problems when a group of young men are together 24/7 in a seminary. He is talking re a more parish-based training as well as theology etc.
Some of what is coming out is distrurbing indeed but maybe this way the cobwebs and bugs will get aired, sorted and a good spring cleaning happen.
As Archbishop Martin avers, the time has passed for the huge seminaries like Maynooth.
One interesting thing in Ireland too…
Some of the religious orders are starting to make headway
dominicans.ie/the-light-of-truth-10/
dominicans.ie/diaconate-ordinations-2016/
and see the sidebar here…
irishdominicanvocations.blogspot.ie/
I met some of the young novices a while back,
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