Chastity/NFP question

[starrball]

Hey,

I am getting married soon, and we will be using NFP. I’;m just wondering from a catholic and chastity point of view, what is considered okay on nights when you have to abstain? Do you have to abstain from anything that might be arousing…since you know you won’t be having intercourse?

 

[vluvski]

CCL now distributes with it’s materials a pamphlet that is supposed to be approved by the Church which outlines what type of activity is appropriate.
It’s going to change from couple to couple based on their level of tolerance/appreciation for stimulation without being overcome by a perceived need for release. Limited genital contact is permitted, but may or may not be prudent. It may even vary from day to day.

The basic criteria I and my husband use is, ‘Will we be frustrated and resentful or exhilarated and anticipating Phase III?’ Please note that the point of intimacy during time of avoiding must serve intimacy during the ‘monthly honeymoon,’ not be an act in and of itself. If you find yourself needing to hold back from climax or unable to pull yourself away from that activity, you’ve taken it too far and need to reevaluate your boundaries.

Before I was married, I argued that even passionate kissing seemed excessive if the husband and wife were not going to immediately unite in the marital embrace, but my own challenges with intimacy have led me to believe otherwise. Without any stimulation during the fertile phase, it is nearly impossible for me to maintain a healthy level of arousal until we can unite.

 

[Ilroy]

And don’t forget to ask yourselves in prayer the reason you’ll be using NFP right after getting married. If you just don’t want to have children right away, then the reason doesn’t seem valid…is more on the selfish side of things. In order to use NFP morally, you have to have a grave reason…such as health issues that truly make pregnancy a problem, or true financial issues making it so you can’t afford more children…

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

My wife and I have been married 22 years and we now serve as a lead couple for marriage preparation at two parishes. And we have made mistakes. One of our mistakes was using NFP to ‘delay’ parenthood early in marriage. The catechism teaches that NFP may be used to ‘space’ children. It does not condone NFP to delay parenthood. Seeing the results of our intents and behavior and having the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I would recommend to all couples that they follow the Church’s teaching. If there is reason that is serious enough to use NFP to delay parenthood, the same reasons justify delaying marriage.

Dan

 

[PennitentMan]

Hey,

I am getting married soon, and we will be using NFP. I’;m just wondering from a catholic and chastity point of view, what is considered okay on nights when you have to abstain? Do you have to abstain from anything that might be arousing…since you know you won’t be having intercourse?

Getting back to the OP.

I believe that it’s better to do less than more in this department. Not to say that you need to act as if you are not married, but certainly very little sexual.
Pushing things on fertile days leads to either intercourse, or very much frustration on either or both spouses’ part.

If I had to define it, I’d say stick to kissing and very little touching and stop it there…not even anything under the clothes.

Just play it safe…otherwise the frustration is quite bad…
PM

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

CCL now distributes with it’s materials a pamphlet that is supposed to be approved by the Church which outlines what type of activity is appropriate.
It’s going to change from couple to couple based on their level of tolerance/appreciation for stimulation without being overcome by a perceived need for release. Limited genital contact is permitted, but may or may not be prudent. It may even vary from day to day.

I am not doubting you on this, but could you let me know the source for this? Is there a link? The only reason I ask is that is seems like that any genital contact would be a catalyst for further acts. I can see where kissing may become passionate and where is can be just a kiss, however, I have hard time seeing that genital contact is just that and not a sexual stimulant.

Again, I am not trying to start a disagreement, just curious. Maybe it is just that personally, I feel that any genital contact can be viewed as foreplay and foreplay is only for before sexual intercourse.

I am getting married soon, and we will be using NFP. I’;m just wondering from a catholic and chastity point of view, what is considered okay on nights when you have to abstain? Do you have to abstain from anything that might be arousing…since you know you won’t be having intercourse?

I would recommend (as will many others) “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West. This is one of the best resources for any and all questions related to sexual activity within the confides of marriage. My view has always been that on abstaining days, you do just that abstain. No contact that would lead you into wanting to have relations with your spouse. I feel that any genital contact would arouse one to want to have sex, however, I could be wrong. JMHO

 

[starrball]

Well, we plan to wait on children, just till I’m out of school, but I have every intention to be a young mother, and my fiance knows that. Financial issues also come into play here, as we have to get some practice supporting ourselves before we’re ready to support a child. Does this sound reasonable?

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Well, we plan to wait on children, just till I’m out of school, but I have every intention to be a young mother, and my fiance knows that. Financial issues also come into play here, as we have to get some practice supporting ourselves before we’re ready to support a child. Does this sound reasonable?

Not sure that I am the best to answer this since we have financial issues and my wife is pregnant with our 4th child.

All I can say is that when you welcome children into your life God will provide and your life will change forever in a great way.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Well, we plan to wait on children, just till I’m out of school, but I have every intention to be a young mother, and my fiance knows that. Financial issues also come into play here, as we have to get some practice supporting ourselves before we’re ready to support a child. Does this sound reasonable?

Are you working with a priest who is very faithful to Church teaching. He should be able to help you, I recommend asking him this question. I pray that you may receive the blessings that you seek from God.

Dan

 

[anna1978]

From a personal point of view: I waited with dating until I had finished my education, had a job, made money…to be married while still in school…Maybe it’s an American thing, because I hear it on here a lot, but it just doesn’t sound good to me…

Anna x

 

[ElizabethAnne]

My wife and I have been married 22 years and we now serve as a lead couple for marriage preparation at two parishes. And we have made mistakes. One of our mistakes was using NFP to ‘delay’ parenthood early in marriage. The catechism teaches that NFP may be used to ‘space’ children. It does not condone NFP to delay parenthood. Seeing the results of our intents and behavior and having the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I would recommend to all couples that they follow the Church’s teaching. If there is reason that is serious enough to use NFP to delay parenthood, the same reasons justify delaying marriage.

Dan

Could you please cite the source where you read that the Catholic Church teaches that couples cannot delay having children at the start of their marriage for any reason, regardless of whether or not it is just, and that they must delay marriage if they have such a reason? Thank you.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Could you please cite the source where you read that the Catholic Church teaches that couples cannot delay having children at the start of their marriage for any reason, regardless of whether or not it is just, and that they must delay marriage if they have such a reason? Thank you.

I cannot produce that, and neither did I say that I read that. I said that when the Catechism addresses NFP, it condones its use to space children. It never condones the use to delay parenthood. It does not specifically prevent it, but there are many sins not specifically mentioned in the catechism. Here is what the Catechism does say. Bold is my indication of relevant sentences.

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. **For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. **Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156

Also:

1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84

It has generally been taught (not infallibly, however) that since marriage is ordered necessarily to procreation, that couples not ready to accept that perogative at the current time, are likely not being called to marriage at that time. A call to marriage can only be inferred to be a call to parenthood by God. Many wish to marry before they are ready to accept this call, but their reasons are typically centered on themelves and their own desires, not for the good of their children and of the greater good. Its hard to understand a couple when they say that they are ready to have sex (even if in marriage) but they are not ready to have children. It’s like someone saying, “let’s go to the Casino tonight, but I am not ready to win any money.” Sex creates children. Even to those using NFP and Artificial Birth Control. Even the best methods fail, it is impossible to prevent conception with absolute certainty. So, it would seem to be irresponsible for a couple to say that they are not yet responsible enough (emotionally, financially, whatever) to have children, but that they want to start having sex. If one truly cannot take care of a child, what compels them to do the very act that is ordered to create one? For me? It was selfishness. Can it be anything else? I don’t think so, except in extreme cases. Extreme, by its very definition, implies almost never.

Dan

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

From a personal point of view: I waited with dating until I had finished my education, had a job, made money…to be married while still in school…Maybe it’s an American thing, because I hear it on here a lot, but it just doesn’t sound good to me…
Anna x

I wish I had your wisdom at a younger age. Dating (i.e. steady and exclusive) before one is ready for marriage almost always leads to hurt and/or sin. Secular society teaches us many things. One thing we are taught by American society is that we can date whoever/whenever we want. The Church has never taught us this.

Dan

 

[ElizabethAnne]

I cannot produce that, and neither did I say that I read that. I said that when the Catechism addresses NFP, it condones its use to space children. It never condones the use to delay parenthood. It does not specifically prevent it, but there are many sins not specifically mentioned in the catechism. Here is what the Catechism does say. Bold is my indication of relevant sentences.

I understand what you have cited and have read it before. The catechism does not say that delaying having a child is sinful, and I really believe that it is wrong for you to say that it is, giving the impression that the Church teaches that.

It has generally been taught (not infallibly, however) that since marriage is ordered necessarily to procreation, that couples not ready to accept that perogative at the current time, are likely not being called to marriage at that time. A call to marriage can only be inferred to be a call to parenthood by God. Many wish to marry before they are ready to accept this call, but their reasons are typically centered on themelves and their own desires, not for the good of their children and of the greater good.

Dan, you are making some assumptions here that cannot be true for every couple. It may be very likely that a couple enters into marriage ready to accept the call to parenthood without actively pursuing it. They may desire children very much, but for certain reasons they may decide that it is in their family’s best interest to pursue that imminently.

My husband and I are currently using NFP to delay my first pregnancy. We both want to start our family ASAP. I can’t wait to be a stay-at-home mom, but we have discerned that now is not the time to pursue that. Of course if it happened we would both be overjoyed! But at this time, we are in the process of relocating near my husband’s family because family is very important to us. Right now my husband is looking for a job, about to fly across the country for interviews, etc. Then, we will be packing and driving across the country. It is going to be a difficult, stressful and exciting time. It would be quite a combination with first-time parenthood thrown in!

Instead your interpretation of Church teaching on procreation would have us delay the wedding. We would have had to either 1. plan a wedding while planning a move across the country and holding down full-time jobs or 2. move across the country separately, find separate apartments and then hold the wedding later. Neither was the best option for us. We were ready to get married and were ready to welcome children whenever God wills it. We are continually discerning His will in all things.

I would really urge you, Dan, not to make it sound like couples who are using NFP to delay the birth of their first child are just out to get their kicks and are not thinking about their future children at all. It’s just not true.

 

[Dakota_Maverick]

I liken that question to asking how far you can go on a date.
In fact the part of nfp that is the abstaining time is really the dating time brought back into the marriage. You get to keep up the skills you have been using during dating.

All the verbal and socializing skills - the doing things together as a couple without the bedroom scene are all things you will keep doing during this time to keep all aspects of your relationship intact. That way the sexual/physical side isn’t all that’s present.
It fills both the physical needs of the husband and the need for more communication that the wife usually needs - the verbal side.
You get times designated for each. After the verbal/social needs time - you get a honeymoon! Weehaa!

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/598/lipsibbdp4.png

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/3385/sleepingbagun4.png

 

[vluvski]

ccli.org/store/onlineshopping.php?criteria=category&f_cat=brochurechastity&catpr=3&order_by=name

The brochure is called Marital Sexuality: Moral Considerations. This is the description the website offers:

A frank and explicit explanation of what forms of sexual behavior are morally permissible within marriage, especially with regard to behavior during times of abstinence.

 

[vluvski]

I dug up my copy of the brochure. Some highlights:

Marital chastity during the fertile time is not the same as premarital chastity.
Activities that are sexually arousing are permissible provided that they do not become excessively arousing… should not lead to orgasm or provide excessive temptation for… masturbation.
Spouses should have good reason for engaging in any such activity because it may carry the remote possibility of involuntary orgasm. Such reasons would include the need to be held… take the edge off sexual tension… In every case the primary intention of the spouses ought to be the promotion of their marriage bond.
…it is hard to justify one spouse repeatedly caressing the clitoris or penis… outside immediate foreplay…
Oral-genital contact… should only be used as foreplay to normal complete intercourse.
The prudence of caressing and kissing… breasts and chest depend on its effects.
Spouses need to live within their limits.

We are not trying to encourage couples to see how far they can go. There can be dangers in seeking to maximize pleasure… There are real spiritual benefits to be gained from a certain degree of self-denial… On the other hand, some couples need to learn that it is not necessary and could even be harmful to live strictly as brother and sister during the fertile time. Each spouse needs to be responsive to the other’s needs…

For those who like documentation, the brochure bears the Nihil obstat by Rev. Christopher R. Armstrong and the Imprimatur by Most Rev. James H. Garland, Auxiliary Bishop, Archdiocese of Cincinnati, Aug. 16, 1988.

 

[vluvski]

For those who find themselves needing to strictly limit sexual contact during times of abstinence, Creative Abstinence is another great brochure put out by CCL about non-sexual ways to enhance the marriage bond outside of sex and sexual pleasure.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

I dug up my copy of the brochure. Some highlights:

For those who like documentation, the brochure bears the Nihil obstat by Rev. Christopher R. Armstrong and the Imprimatur by Most Rev. James H. Garland, Auxiliary Bishop, Archdiocese of Cincinnati, Aug. 16, 1988.

I guess to me it just seems like this “teasing” would be more of a temptation than anything. As hard as it may be to avoid all touching, I would feel that it is the best option for the days of fertility if you are trying to avoid. Again each person is different, but from my reading of what you posted seems like no touching “below the belt” is what it says.

 

[vluvski]

The brochure does not explicitly state that genital contact is allowed, but states that excessive genital contact is “hard to justify,” and that “spouses may engage in these activities with the intention of experiencing some degree of sexual pleasure, provided they intend to keep such activities and degree of pleasure under control.”

Therefore, my conclusion is that a small amount of genital contact is not forbidden for a couple who mutually agrees that it is not a temptation for masturbation, and does not result in unpleasant frustration. I firmly believe that my difficulty with intimacy merits the degree of contact between me and my husband during times we must abstain, yet I am sure for many couples this would not only be unjustified, but excessive, frustrating, and generally not spiritually beneficial.