Chastity within marriage

[Dulcimer]

*I would say I would have to disagree with the priest you spoke with. Manual stimulation by the woman who failed to achieve “orgasm” prior to the “marital act” (male climax), is performing “Self” gratification. This is not right. The climax of husband and wife should be together. True, this does not always happen. But as a loving husband and wife they should work together to achieve this unity. In most cases, the husband should be mindful of his wifes needs. He should slow it down for himself and work towards helping his wife achieve her pleasure. And as she is achieving her climax, the husband should complete the martial embrace, and they can achieve pleasure of the martial embrace together.

Some women have difficulty climaxing at all; there are a large percentage that cannot climax without some type of additional stimulation. If that is the case, and if the husband is not willing to help her achieve climax by manual or oral stimulation, then isn’t the husband somewhat defrauding her? If he is, isn’t HE in sin?

Just trying to understand this…

 

[Dulcimer]

www.nfpandmore.com you can learn the art of NFP on that site, but if you want the book, go to www.ccli.org The book is better than the nfpandmore site, but the site is very similar to the book.

why would having sex during infertile times be any better than using contraception? Well, sex during the infertile times is morally acceptable because when you use contraception, you are impeding the natural way of the act. Mmm… how should I explain it…

When you contracept, you are artificially avoiding a pregancy, and when using NFP, you are still open to having a baby, but you know you are in the infertile time, so you are avoinding NATURALLY.

Contraception prevents what God Himself designed. We play God when we use contraception. For example, when you as the woman take the pill, you are treating feritility as a disease. You take a pill for a headache, you get a shot for avoiding the flu. With contraception, you are not treating a disease, you’re preventing the natural process of a human body. You are preventing your body to act as God designed it to act.

When you’re in the infertile phase of your cycle, you are still open to the natural part of life, but are physically incapable of becoming pregnant. Abstinence during the fertile times of your cycle are better than avoiding what God planned for your body. You should look at your fertility as a gift from God, not as a disease you pop a pill for or get a shot for.

Hope I didn’t confuse you.

Thanks for all the good information! I have been curious before about “NFP” (I still don’t know what the acronym stands for, but I know what it entails) in the Catholic Church.

It still sounds like one is playing God (sex during infertile times), but I understand the mechanics of avoiding artificial contraceptives. If it is sin to “spill his seed on the ground” in order to avoid pregnancy, then contraception is merely a chemical copy-cat of this same thing.

My heart understands, but my brain is protesting!

beats brain into submission

Ah! There we go!

P.S. I am not Catholic, but I think their position on sex and fertility makes the most sense, per the Bible. It is man (and Satan) that wants to limit procreation, not God. “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.”

 

[yessisan]

Some women have difficulty climaxing at all; there are a large percentage that cannot climax without some type of additional stimulation. If that is the case, and if the husband is not willing to help her achieve climax by manual or oral stimulation, then isn’t the husband somewhat defrauding her? If he is, isn’t HE in sin?

Just trying to understand this…

I know I said I was staying off, but what you said here is true, the man would be in sin.

 

[yessisan]

Thanks for all the good information! I have been curious before about “NFP” (I still don’t know what the acronym stands for, but I know what it entails) in the Catholic Church.

It still sounds like one is playing God (sex during infertile times), but I understand the mechanics of avoiding artificial contraceptives. If it is sin to “spill his seed on the ground” in order to avoid pregnancy, then contraception is merely a chemical copy-cat of this same thing.

My heart understands, but my brain is protesting!

beats brain into submission

Ah! There we go!

P.S. I am not Catholic, but I think their position on sex and fertility makes the most sense, per the Bible. It is man (and Satan) that wants to limit procreation, not God. “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.”

NFP = Natural Family Planning

We don’t play God by abstaining, abstinence is not artificial, abstinence is a good thing in marriage. God created abstinence. It’s a big sacrifice and it can be offered for Christ’s sufferings. Abstinence can help you build up better communicationg with your spouse, it can help you with other things in marriage. This is why it’d be good if you get the book from ccli.org there is an entire chapter on this, but don’t get the abridged version (the $19.95 one, the $70 one has many more chapters and much more information than the abridged version. I have both at home, the abridged for my husband, and the other one for me.

Going back on the abstinence… don’t believe it’s artificial, it’s not. When you weren’t married, you’re abstaining, it’s not artificial, is it? When you’re married you use it for your marriage’s advantage, but only if you’re avoiding having children for a justifiable reason. It’s not a form or contraception, don’t get the wrong idea. NFP is only for those who believe they are being called by God to wait, sometimes our reasons can be selfisha dn we end up sinning by avoiding children. It’s up to you and your husband to decide, and you can check with a priest if your reason is a good or a selfish one, but usually, you’re the only one who will know if it’s going to be any type of burden to have a child at the moment. Some have extreme financial reasons, some have other reasons, whatever the reason, you have to evaluate it and make sure you’re not being selfish, ie, just because you just got married and want to wait a few yrs, well, that would be a bit selfish. If having a child would cause tremendous stress financially, spiritually, physically, or whatever, then it’s up to you to decide.

That is why abstinence is the only way for a Catholic to avoid pregnancy. Artificial contraception is ARTIFICIAL, not made by God, not designed by God, so I hope one day your heart and mind are at together in this situation. If you look at the side effects of artificial birth control you will know why Catholics are against it. We are 100% pro-life, and almost all artificial birth control causes an abortion one way or another, the rest just impede the sperm to reach the egg, and sometimes those do end up meeting each other, those pregnancies could be aborted at a clinic, sometimes the pregnancies are difficult because of the nature of the birth control method… too many things that can end up ending a new life. We believe a baby is formed at conception, not when doctors say a fetus is now considered a baby. At conception, a life is present, 9 months later, the baby is outside of the mommy… this society is too emphasized on sex and pleasure, it forgets that sex is procreative and should be procreative. It was meant to be procreative since the beginning of man kind, we cannot decide to mess up God’s plans.

So yes, as you pointed out,

If it is sin to “spill his seed on the ground” in order to avoid pregnancy, then contraception is merely a chemical copy-cat of this same thing

 

[Dulcimer]

We don’t play God by abstaining, abstinence is not artificial, abstinence is a good thing in marriage. God created abstinence. It’s a big sacrifice and it can be offered for Christ’s sufferings. Abstinence can help you build up better communicationg with your spouse, it can help you with other things in marriage. This is why it’d be good if you get the book from ccli.org there is an entire chapter on this, but don’t get the abridged version (the $19.95 one, the $70 one has many more chapters and much more information than the abridged version. I have both at home, the abridged for my husband, and the other one for me.

Going back on the abstinence… don’t believe it’s artificial, it’s not. When you weren’t married, you’re abstaining, it’s not artificial, is it? When you’re married you use it for your marriage’s advantage, but only if you’re avoiding having children for a justifiable reason. It’s not a form or contraception, don’t get the wrong idea. NFP is only for those who believe they are being called by God to wait, sometimes our reasons can be selfisha dn we end up sinning by avoiding children. It’s up to you and your husband to decide, and you can check with a priest if your reason is a good or a selfish one, but usually, you’re the only one who will know if it’s going to be any type of burden to have a child at the moment. Some have extreme financial reasons, some have other reasons, whatever the reason, you have to evaluate it and make sure you’re not being selfish, ie, just because you just got married and want to wait a few yrs, well, that would be a bit selfish. If having a child would cause tremendous stress financially, spiritually, physically, or whatever, then it’s up to you to decide.

That is why abstinence is the only way for a Catholic to avoid pregnancy. Artificial contraception is ARTIFICIAL, not made by God, not designed by God, so I hope one day your heart and mind are at together in this situation. If you look at the side effects of artificial birth control you will know why Catholics are against it. We are 100% pro-life, and almost all artificial birth control causes an abortion one way or another, the rest just impede the sperm to reach the egg, and sometimes those do end up meeting each other, those pregnancies could be aborted at a clinic, sometimes the pregnancies are difficult because of the nature of the birth control method… too many things that can end up ending a new life. We believe a baby is formed at conception, not when doctors say a fetus is now considered a baby. At conception, a life is present, 9 months later, the baby is outside of the mommy… this society is too emphasized on sex and pleasure, it forgets that sex is procreative and should be procreative. It was meant to be procreative since the beginning of man kind, we cannot decide to mess up God’s plans.

So yes, as you pointed out,

Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m very pro-life, anti-abortion, and due to a long-standing illness, VERY anti-pill, but not necessarily against all forms of contraception (I have tried several, with a condom being the least invasive–and least effective–method).

However, from a merely medical standpoint, I’m against The Pill. I think playing with my estrogen/testosterone levels is a dangerous thing, with physical consequences that stretch out a lot further into the future than when I stop taking it. My aunt couldn’t conceive for 8 years after stopping it. There are consequences for drugging ourselves!.

On the other hand, from an ethical/moral standpoint, who am I to say that I’m “too poor” to have children? Or that “now is not the right time”? Is that not a lack of trust in God?

I understand the temptation to use contraceptives, and the fear that comes with an “unplanned” pregnancy, but I’m not sure that NFP is fully ethical either, and it still smacks of “playing God” to only have sex when I’m sure to be infertile…

Sorry to bother you; my mind just goes kazonga on Ethics questions…

–D <><

 

[yessisan]

I understand the temptation to use contraceptives, and the fear that comes with an “unplanned” pregnancy, but I’m not sure that NFP is fully ethical either, and it still smacks of “playing God” to only have sex when I’m sure to be infertile…

Well, for that then, just do it the natural way. No NFP, no contraceptives. That is the best way!! I’m pretty sure not all Catholics think NFP is ethical. Some prefer to leave it up to God 100%. I wish I were that brave but I have my future children’s souls to think about. My DH wants them to be non-Christian, and I don’t. That is why this has to be agreed on 100% before marriage, and I thought we had, but what can I do? Just pray he’ll become Catholic again someday and hope I can change his mind about baptizing them. After all, we was a child of a Catholic and a JW and he did receive the initiation Sacraments from the CC (baptism, first Eucahrist, first confession, and confirmation) and his mom still took him to the JWs. Maybe I can try to work it the same way and hope before our children have full reasoning, that DH will be Catholic, or at least a Christian of a different denomination, so they don’t have to be split by Christinanity and a cult.

 

[Dulcimer]

I have my future children’s souls to think about. My DH wants them to be non-Christian, and I don’t. That is why this has to be agreed on 100% before marriage, and I thought we had, but what can I do? Just pray he’ll become Catholic again someday and hope I can change his mind about baptizing them. After all, we was a child of a Catholic and a JW and he did receive the initiation Sacraments from the CC (baptism, first Eucahrist, first confession, and confirmation) and his mom still took him to the JWs. Maybe I can try to work it the same way and hope before our children have full reasoning, that DH will be Catholic, or at least a Christian of a different denomination, so they don’t have to be split by Christinanity and a cult.

I thought Paul said the believing spouse sanctified the children?

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. I Cor. 7:14

Why should your children be unbelievers just because your spouse has fallen away from God? You have no guarantees that your spouse will EVER return to the Lord (though I fervently hope and will pray that he does), but that doesn’t mean your children are lost because of it.

encouraging look

 

[yessisan]

I thought Paul said the believing spouse sanctified the children?

Why should your children be unbelievers just because your spouse has fallen away from God? You have no guarantees that your spouse will EVER return to the Lord (though I fervently hope and will pray that he does), but that doesn’t mean your children are lost because of it.

encouraging look

If your spouse if unwilling to let you bring them to God what would you do? I’m stuck in between a sword and the wall.

 

[Dulcimer]

If your spouse if unwilling to let you bring them to God what would you do? I’m stuck in between a sword and the wall.

Pray that God would change my spouse’s heart, for one thing!

“The heart of the King is in the hand of God, He turns it like a watercourse, wherever he wills.”

Also, is your spouse open to dialog? What is his complaint with Christianity? What are his reasons to hesistate to raise the children as Christians? Is he willing to compromise here? (Or does he insist on raising them to be JW?)

Listen to him carefully…And pray over his answers…God can change any heart!

 

[yessisan]

Pray that God would change my spouse’s heart, for one thing!

“The heart of the King is in the hand of God, He turns it like a watercourse, wherever he wills.”

Also, is your spouse open to dialog? What is his complaint with Christianity? What are his reasons to hesistate to raise the children as Christians? Is he willing to compromise here? (Or does he insist on raising them to be JW?)

Listen to him carefully…And pray over his answers…God can change any heart!

Dh is open to dialog but not when it comes to this issue. We tried talking about it during Retrouvaille (a communication prgram kind of like a marriage encounter for troubled marriages) and we argued over it, he got so upset, he wanted to leave the weekend we stayed at the hotel w/the group. He believes, because he’s a JW, that Catholics aren’t Christians, and baptising the children will compromise their resurrected life (not soul, they don’t believe in soul and its eternity nor that we’ll go to Heaven or hell).

He insists we let the children decide what religion they want to follow but he wants them to be raised as JWs, and take them to the JWs (until they are old enough to decide). I haven’t asked about doing it the way he was raised. That’s my last resort but I fear asking him because of his last response at Retrouvaille.

But just for the sake of this thread and the OP, let’s just PM each other so the thread doesn’t get closed.

 

[yessisan]

missbinky, **Dulcimer, **this was just posted on the “Ask an Apologist” forum. Hope this helps the 2 of you understand NFP a little better.

Is NFP the same as other birth control methods?

 

[Dulcimer]

missbinky, **Dulcimer, **this was just posted on the “Ask an Apologist” forum. Hope this helps the 2 of you understand NFP a little better.

Is NFP the same as other birth control methods?

Thanks! I will read it.

(I’m fairly certain I’ve been guilty of most of the other methods–though not abortion, thank God!–and can only plead ignorance there.) I would like to learn NFP or some other similar method, as it’s far less invasive than ones I know of.

You know the old joke, though, right?

“What do you call practitioners of the Rhythym Method*?”
“‘Mom and Dad’!”

*Old style NFP from the 70’s

 

[yessisan]

Thanks! I will read it.

(I’m fairly certain I’ve been guilty of most of the other methods–though not abortion, thank God!–and can only plead ignorance there.) I would like to learn NFP or some other similar method, as it’s far less invasive than ones I know of.

You know the old joke, though, right?

“What do you call practitioners of the Rhythym Method*?”
“‘Mom and Dad’!”

*Old style NFP from the 70’s

I use Sympto-Thermal. It’s great and if you can’t interpret one fertility sign, you have 2 others to rely on!

 

[CuriousInIL]

I would say I would have to disagree with the priest you spoke with. Manual stimulation by the woman who failed to achieve “orgasm” prior to the** “marital act” (male climax),*** is performing “Self” gratification. This is not right. The climax of husband and wife should be together. True, this does not always happen. But as a loving husband and wife they should work together to achieve this unity. In most cases, the husband should be mindful of his wifes needs. He should slow it down for himself and work towards helping his wife achieve her pleasure. And as she is achieving her climax, the husband should complete the martial embrace, and they can achieve pleasure of the martial embrace together.

I know that I am going back a ways to now quote this, but the thread took off in a different direction and left this hanging.

Do you have any support for the idea that seems to be in your post that
marital act = male climax

 

[yessisan]

I know that I am going back a ways to now quote this, but the thread took off in a different direction and left this hanging.

Do you have any support for the idea that seems to be in your post that
marital act = male climax

I was wondering this too, but never had the chance to ask. I thought marital act = pro-creation, unifying, and pleasurable for both spouses, not just for the husband

 

[DailyBread]

No, I think people just assume since you need openess to life this is all it entails, but it should really be the whole process, actions leading up to the transmission of gametes by the male, the proper transmission, and actions immediately proceeding that. Also the fact that it is “marital” in the sense it is a full, faithful, free, and fruitful(in the sense you did not contracept) gift of self to one’s spouse.

 

[convert101]

O.K. Here’s a slightly new tack on this thread: What if you are open to life but find yourself in a marriage were one partner does not attempt to, or believe it is necessary to, make certain that both people are satisfied? I am not asking for justification for masturbation. But the emptiness created by this sort of a union over a long period of time can lead to sin of its own kind. How can you avoid things like discontent or lust or unholy desire, when the other spouse refuses to care; when sex is merely that: sex? To that spouse it may be unifying because they are obtuse, but it is hurtful and unfulfilling to the other. Especially once the problem has come into the open and remains of little concern.

So how could I avoid sinning when this “marital act” is so hurtful that the act itself causes enough resentment and anger to spawn evil?

 

[Dulcimer]

I can’t quite answer the last (at least not from personal experience); I know that a breakdown of communication is responsible for less-than-satisfactory sex and ultimately a breakdown of the marriage for me.

But I challenge the idea that male orgasm = marital act, especially when one realizes that female orgasm tends to open her body more and to (how shall I put this delicately?) funnel the sperm to the place where it will most likely fertilize an egg.

I think God created sex for Man (i.e., Male AND Female), and made it pleasurable for both.

Can anyone here speak specifically to Convert 101’s question?

 

[Tiber_Squid]

…What if you are open to life but find yourself in a marriage were one partner does not attempt to, or believe it is necessary to, make certain that both people are satisfied?

JPII before his papacy wrote in his book Love and Responsibility about many of these subjects. My understanding of a statement in that book is that he says that it is the spouses and based on the biology to ensure both climax as part of the marital act. If climax cannot be achieved at the same time, it is the husband’s duty to ensure his wife does – if not that can lead to resentment. Self gratification outside that is often a tempting sin for many, but it is a sin that many struggle with. Completing the marital act through means of the husband stimulating the wife manually is the loving thing to do.

As far as previous comments on pleasure vs. procreation – a lot of good points have been already made. I also thought of this in terms of other things we do with our bodies. Take food – God could have made us without taste buds and the many wild varities of food sources – but he didn’t. Pleasure in eating is a good thing – but we can’t eat just chocolate and wine, or beer and pizza, or … pick your poison so to speak… you can’t eat what you like. Eating is primarily for sustaining humanity – specifically your body, but it can be more. Sometimes you eat when it’s absolutely essential, and some times you eat more for the pleasure. Gluttony and anorexia/bulemia are both sides off the balance point of healthy eating. Food can be pleasurable – it is more than sustenance, but that can be abused. Sex is all the more powerful – but the same thing. God gave us an amazing means of carrying forward the human race and also for strengthening the bond of marriage – abused or neglected that can drive a wedge between spouses and contracepted can lead to the reduction in population to the point of abortion. It is quite frankly as much of a sin to deny the body as it is to exploit it – the sin is not in the pleasure of sex but in the mis-use of it. Sex that expresses the marks or vows of marriage (total, free, faithful, and fruitful love) is holy – while sex that fails to respect and communicate those to the spouse is not.

Lastly, I’ll mention that NFP is great and it is the only way to go once you understand the implications of contraception. NFP readings can be easy – but one must realize the sacrifice involved (study the Theology of the Body – see Christopher West’s writings). However, once you truly see the body as a gift and a revelation of the person --yours and others – you can start to see how all of this fit’s in God’s plan.

 

[nova147]

Convert101- I don’t know what the anwser to your question is, but I understand the struggle. In my case, it doesn’t come from a lack of concern, but from other issues - but since DH won’t work on those issues, the result is the same. I’m uncomfortable discussing further details here, but if you want to chat, PM me. Does anyone else have insight into managing this situation?

MJ