Chavez demands Pope apologize for Indian comments

[mgrobertson79]

Reparations for what? The Residential schools?

The government does what is in it’s best interest and not that of the people.

Reparations may in fact be in order, but at what cost? I’m definitely not educated enough to figure that one out.

Justice and peace is a modern issue.

You are so right, but our respective governments are not interested in either.

I did not say that we should be held accountable for things we did not do.

Our governments and it’s laws are what should be held accountable, though I’m sure neither of us are recommending holding individuals accountable(Unless those individuals are the ones in our history who perpetrated the crimes, such as Custer).

Holding hard feelings and working to end the marginalization of First Nations, heal the damage caused by the Residential schools, and honor the land claims are two separate things.

I can’t help the French screwed the natives in what became Canada. The brits did no better. As far as land claims and treaties, here in the US, treaties were made with the intent of being broken, so they were and are not worth the paper they are written on.

Mmmm. I will find you a link about what the Church actually said way back then. I have to run now though and won’t be back until evening.

Actually, I’ll look, but I don’t think she took an official stand because of the lack of communication. Communication in those days was by letter and would have been extremely drawn out in delivery between the Canadian territories and Rome.

This does not account for the Residential schools. Neither does it account for the reneging on the land treaties.

You are right. We see a continuation of this process in the US. All children who are forced to enter the public school system are indoctrinated with the message of the government. They are taught that God is a myth and homosexuality is good.

As for land treaties, see my previous remark.

Wow, please give some references for his misinformation.

Please study US history, the Indians(Native Americans) fought hard for the land. They felt that the white men were invaders and in deed they were. The Indians lost the war, and have since been relegated to reservations. They are given some autonomy today, but that doesn’t make up for the thousands that were massacred by the US Army in the mid-1800’s. The governments of North America have, since the founding of their respective countries, disrespected the Native inhabitants of the land and in most cases, subjected them to abuse, neglect and torture.

There is no misinformation here, only lifetimes of hurt, hate and death. No good can come of bringing back old wounds. Though I’m sure you have heard of the “Trail of Tears”. That is where my ancestors were forcibly marched from the Appalachian mountains where they lived to Oklahoma. On this march, many succumbed to disease and fatigue. Water was unimportant, save for the soldiers. So yes, I guess there is some malice there, because the US government today continues to slight the natives every chance it gets. It has been said that they intend on eradicating the natives completely. They do this by what is known as the blood quantum. It is used to determine how much Native American(Indian) blood you have.

Here is a link for info regarding the Trail of tears.
ngeorgia.com/history/nghisttt.html

Here is a link for a history of the Native American tribes.
nativeamericans.com/

Here is a link(apparently Canadian) about Native American Spirituality
religioustolerance.org/nataspir.htm

Here is a link for treaties between the US Government and Native Americans.
yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/ntreaty/ntreaty.htm

Here is a document that should be implemented here in the US exactly as outlined.
aimovement.org/ggc/trailofbrokentreaties.html

Let us not convince ourselves that we live in a civilized society. We(our governments) put people on small reservations, break treaties and diminishe any dignity these people have left. As for this, we are all guilty for allowing it to continue. It has been said in the past that ignorance is no excuse and this is definitely true today. To force these people to assimilate against their will is wrong. They are not savages and should be allowed to live however and where ever they wish. The lands that were previously stolen from them should be returned.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

mgrobertson79:

The government does what is in it’s best interest and not that of the people.

Well that’s another thread. I was talking about what our responsibilities are as Catholics and what form peace and justice should take.

mgrobertson79:

Reparations may in fact be in order, but at what cost? I’m definitely not educated enough to figure that one out.

The land claims are the land claims. What is complicated about that?

mgrobertson79:

Our governments and it’s laws are what should be held accountable, though I’m sure neither of us are recommending holding individuals accountable(Unless those individuals are the ones in our history who perpetrated the crimes, such as Custer).

Who ran the residential schools?

mgrobertson79:

I can’t help the French screwed the natives in what became Canada. The brits did no better.

Correct.

mgrobertson79:

As far as land claims and treaties, here in the US, treaties were made with the intent of being broken, so they were and are not worth the paper they are written on.

Well, they are worth the paper they are written on. They are legal documents. Just because someone breaks the law doesn’t mean breaking the law is the correct thing to do. Why is there one law for folks of European descent and another law for First Nations?

mgrobertson79:

Please study US history, the Indians(Native Americans) fought hard for the land. The felt that the white men were invaders and in deed they were. The Indian lost the war, and has since been relegated to reservations. They are given some autonomy today, but that doesn’t make up for the thousands that were massacred by the US Army in the mid-1800’s. The governments of North America have, since the founding of their respective countries, disrespected the Native inhabitants of the land and in most cases, subjected them to abuse, neglect and torture.

I am aware of this American history in a general sense. If you have anything more that we can read online, that would be helpful. Thank you. I see that you have given links below. Thank you.

mgrobertson79:

There is no misinformation here, only lifetimes of hurt, hate and death.

There is a lot of misinformation.

mgrobertson79:

No good can come of bringing back old wounds.

As Catholics, we are obliged to struggle for justice. The residential school system had effects on the First Nations sense of community and being generations after it was ended. It is still destroying lives up here in Canada.

mgrobertson79:

Though I’m sure you have heard of the “Trail of Tears”. That is where my ancestors were forcibly marched from the Appalachian mountains where they lived to Oklahoma. On this march, many succumbed to disease and fatigue. Water was unimportant, save for the soldiers. So yes, I guess there is some malice there, because the US government today continues to slight the natives every chance it gets. It has been said that they intend on eradicating the natives completely. They do this by what is known as the blood quantum. It is used to determine how much Native American(Indian) blood you have.

Yeah, we have the same blood entitlement here in Canada. But the govt recognizes the blood lines through males not females. The First Nations up here have their lines through females.

mgrobertson79:

Let us not convince ourselves that we live in a civilized society. We(our government) puts people on small reservations, breaks treaties and diminishes any dignity these people have left.

I have no illusions.

As for this, we are all guilty for allowing it to continue.

I am not guilty inasmuch as I make efforts to inform myself and challenge the status quo for First Nations as often as I can. Especially on CAF.

mgrobertson79:

It has been said in the past that ignorance is no excuse and this is definitely true today. To force these people to assimilate against their will is wrong. They are not savages and should be allowed to live however and where ever they wish. The lands that were previously stolen from them should be returned.

OK. We’re reading from the same page then.

 

[maisua]

my apologies if this has already been posted%between%

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NYT: May 24, 2007

**Pope Concedes Unjustifiable Crimes in Converting South Americans **

By IAN FISHER
ROME, May 23 — Pope Benedict XVI tried Wednesday to quell anger in South America over his recent comments about the conversion of native populations, conceding that “unjustifiable crimes” were committed in the conquest of the continent 500 years ago.
The pope told a weekly audience here in Italian that it was “not possible to forget the suffering and the injustices inflicted by colonizers against the indigenous population, whose fundamental human rights were often trampled.”
He said in a speech last week in Brazil that native populations had been “silently longing” for the faith colonizers had brought to South America.
He said in the speech, “The proclamation of Jesus and of his Gospel did not at any point involve an alienation of the pre-Columbus cultures, nor was it the imposition of a foreign culture.”
The speech infuriated many South American leaders and indigenous groups, mirroring the broader and more violent reaction last year after the pope quoted a Byzantine emperor as referring to Islam as “evil and inhuman.” These leaders and groups cited the standard historical view that Spanish and Portuguese colonizers forced conversion by giving natives a choice between “the Cross and the sword.”
President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela demanded that the pope apologize, and one indigenous group in Ecuador said, “Representatives of the Catholic Church of those times, with honorable exceptions, were accomplices, deceivers and beneficiaries of one of the most horrific genocides of all humanity.”
But unlike his ultimate apology for his words on Islam, Benedict’s response also repeated his contention that Catholicism in South America had favorably “shaped their culture for 500 years.”
“While we do not overlook the various injustices and sufferings that accompanied colonization, the Gospel has expressed and continues to express the identity of the peoples in this region and provides inspiration to address the challenges of our globalized era,” he told pilgrims in St. Peters’ Square on Wednesday, in English.
In the public audiences on Wednesdays, the pope normally delivers a lengthy address in Italian, with summaries in other languages. The pope’s repetition of his qualification in English seemed to underscore the Vatican’s desire to soften his earlier words.
Responding to the pope, the Confederation of Indigenous Organizations of the Brazilian Amazon, of which Jecinaldo Sateré Mawé is the coordinator, said, “It is arrogant and disrespectful to regard our cultural heritage as inferior.”
In an interview with Folha de São Paulo, Brazil’s largest newspaper, Luiz Felipe de Alencastro, a prominent historian, was even more critical. “The process of colonization was one of destruction of Amerindian culture,” he said. “The missionaries were at the service of a religion that had incorporated the authoritarian and despotic elements of European monarchy.”
After the speech on Islam, and again after the Brazil trip, some critics, as well as some supporters, said the comments by the pope — whose previous career was more concerned with theology than with public policy — indicated he had a deaf ear for the political implications of his words.
His clarification on Wednesday echoed an apology the Roman Catholic Church made in Brazil in 2000 for “sins and errors” committed against native populations and blacks there over the preceding 500 years.
Larry Rohter contributed reporting from Rio de Janeiro.