Checkmate in 3 moves

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To me, they are significant points, which suggests a flaw in the way you reason. This does not give me much confidence in the rest of what you wrote.

Poor you.
I guess if I didn’t have a clue about logic, presented a slop of an argument as the OP, got called out on it, but didn’t want to admit any of it, I’d say something very much like you have.

I mean, it clearly follows that if a few of my critiques about your premises are false, then all of my objections to your argument are likewise false. Shoot…I can’t remember what rule of inference permits us to derive that…what is it called again? :rolleyes:

The fact that you presented this argument is telling, but further that you refuse to make the thing valid is quite revealing.
 
If I might be so bold, I’m sure his clarification will reduce to the variation of Kalam’s first premise: “nothing begins to exist without being caused to.”
Strictly speaking it is nonsensical that nothing **begins to exist - **in any context whatsoever. As Lear said nothing shall come of nothing… 🙂
 
Here are two challenges I think any rational person would like MM2 to meet:
  1. Tell us whether your argument is logically valid. If it isn’t, tell us why we should believe the conclusion anyways.
  2. Make the argument valid. I can help if you need, just ask.
 
Can you please desist from your continued misplaced sense of authority? This is the second
time you have insulted me in a subtle un-charitable way, in fact here we find the exact same rude and leading query…this is a public forum…why would you not PM myself…what exactly are your public motives …look here JDaniel…( just a week or so ago::

Originally Posted by FurtherSuntime…in reply to out of order, exact same question by JDaniel

I’m very comfortable as a Catholic and understand all the expectations, teachings ect. I have no quarrel with any of the teachings at all. I simply do not have a mind that can resist solving problems or what would be said to be mystery. Interest in creation is a compliment, I can’t be interested in something with…restrictions. For your information I thoroughly enjoy reading many of the nihilobstat writings and fully believe these saints would be keen on exploring the God they pray to and live for with full zest and greater insight…thats in character what these writers were…if all thats done in the belief is dance around what is already written…where is the personal belief exactly…the paradox is left un-attended to…the dialectic is void, no reconciliation as theres nothing but a robot following rules…faith is a creative endeavor…not a rule book, once the idea is accepted the journey begins…otherwise theres no merit to the will…believing with the immediate will has no value.

I don’t think by reading your posts , that you are suggesting a Catholic is not allowed to “wonder”…perhaps a thread on the essence of love and the role wonder plays is a good idea. Please do not be privy due to a public forum to create a common villain for non-constructive and so forth reasons…anyway if your intelligent, you will leave me alone or simply comment on some of my creative idea’s in a suitable way…I didn’t quote you either so what are you trying to project here anyway?..never mind the direction is non-constructive.

back to topic. Time is vastly difficult to try and understand looking forward to some well trained commentary…I fully reccomend…Paul Davies(physisist)…“about time”

JDaniel replys…this is just a week ago or so…to above

Thank you FurtherSuntime:

I am good with your explication. Just know, that we are occasionally inundated with anti-Christians who come here to beat Christians up. You, sir, sound like the genuine article! Again, thank you, and my deepest apologies if my post sounded terse.

Oh, and by the way, since I have not had the pleasure, Welcome to CAF!

God bless,

FS continuing,… please know that I do not report to yourself

PS…if your mindset was in step with these quotes you are complaining to, you would quote myself and perhaps you may learn something…try one…I will be bk later prob tom…youve upset me once again…failing that simple request, please PM with your concerns which in a public forum are leading in a negative tone, to be most sure:
FS:

I apoligize for anything that I’ve said that makes you feel upset. Why won’t you simply answer whether or not you’re “RC” stands for “Roman Catholic?” Knowing for sure certainly helps whoever feels the angst of answering you to know where you’re coming from. 😉

God bless, whether you are or aren’t,
jd
 
Haha so your of the opinion that there is a timeless potential reality instead of a timeless actual reality? This really just seems to be a word game at this point haha. Whatever was there, was there, and you get to decide whether you think it must be intelligent or not.

Haha time is merely a concept. By your reasoning the concept of “nothing” could not even exist if nothing existed. This is true in the sense that you could ask whether a concept really existed if there was no one around to think to keep the concept alive. However, since we currently are able to experience time and can understand the concept now, looking back we can understand that the principle of time would still apply if nothing existed. There would just be no way to measure how much time was passing in any meaningful way.
So why isn’t “potential” merely a concept in the same sense as time?
 
Here are two challenges I think any rational person would like MM2 to meet:
  1. Tell us whether your argument is logically valid. .
My argument is logically valid.:rolleyes:

Unless of course what you really intended to ask me was “Can you show us why you think that your argument is valid”. In which case i think i have already presented sufficient reasons. Its really not that difficult for an adult to grasp.
  1. Its not difficult to understand that out of nothing comes nothing
  2. If you accept that potentiality obviously cannot come out of nothing, then it shouldn’t be difficult to understand that potentiality cannot infinitely precede actuality. Being has to exist before any potential or possible state can come into existence regardless of the number. Therefore being has to exist before any change can exist.
  3. Its not difficult to see why it should follow from the first two premises that there has to be an absolute being, an ultimate reality that is not preceded by any potential/change, and is not itself a potential state or being, and is therefore not itself in the category of changing things.
If you don’t understand my argument, then you should not be so arrogant as to claim refutation of what you don’t in the first place understand.
  1. Make the argument valid. I can help if you need, just ask.
You are the last person on the planet that i need help from.

Thanks for the offer anyway.
 
You are now objectifying nothing by saying no logic applies to it. There is no reality in which logic is absent.
I don’t know if you really understand what it means to say “there was nothing.” A total absence of existence. In such a state, the answer to the question “does x exist,” where x is anything you like, is no. Does matter exist? No, Does space exist? No. Does time exist? No. Does the nothingness itself exist? No. Does logic exist? No.

If you play the same sorts of thought experiments that I do, when you think about what nothing would be like, you think of yourself floating through space with nothing around you. That is wrong, if you were there, you would exist and you would no longer be observing nothing. Moreover, in true nothingness there is nothing for you to float through. You cannot observe nothingness, scientists could never whip it up in the lab. If they did it would have a size and be subject to our space and time, and therefore not really be nothingness at all.

Perhaps, then, it is impossible for nothing to exist. It may contain the logical contradiction that if nothing exists, nothingness cannot exist. Therefore, it makes no sense to look for an “uncaused cause” because such a proposition supposes an impossible starting condition.
 
I don’t know if you really understand what it means to say “there was nothing.”

Since it
I never said that nothing was a real thing
Perhaps, then, it is impossible for nothing to exist. It may contain the logical contradiction that if nothing exists, nothingness cannot exist. Therefore, it makes no sense to look for an “uncaused cause” because such a proposition supposes an impossible starting condition.
There is such a thing as potential reality, potential states, and potential beings. Therefore there has to be an absolute being that cannot fail to exist and is not itself a potential being.
 
My argument is logically valid
Wow. If anyone else had said this…I’d have concluded they were trolling. Please…tell us what logical validity is. haha I’m never gonna get over this, undergrads wouldn’t say this kind of stuff.
 
  1. Out of nothing comes nothing.
MoM:

Here’s how I see your argument: “Out of nothing comes nothing.” This is simply an a priori declaration about our universe, that must obtain. Nothing more and nothing less. To say the opposite is either a statement exposing a muddled thinker, or just plain argumentative.
  1. Potentiality is dependent on actuality in-order to become a real being, and therefore potentiality cannot infinitely precede actuality, because that would be an example of actuality coming out of nothing.
This is a complex premise. It says that the closest thing that we have that can be thought of as “nothingness,” is privation. Privation is not a thing. It is an absence, quite like nothingness. Yet, we see substantial change every day. The growth of a leaf exemplifies plant cells undergoing substantial change. So, instead of exemplifying nothingness as a thing (of some sort?), it is best exemplified as the “privation of any-thing and every-thing.”

So, because privation is the absence of things in the order of matter, including, perhaps, the order of the “physical,” nothingness cannot obtain privation. That would be an absurdity. It is “privation,” i.e., the absence of any and all things AND the absence of thing-ness. Yet, as we can plainly see, substantial changes take place every day. In what, then, does “privation,” i.e, “potentiality” (in the Scholastic sense) inure? It inures, as St. Thomas makes clear, in the “matter,” or “subject.” And, since that’s the case, privation, i.e., “potentiality,” can be neither logically, nor ontologically, prior to the matter (subject) that expresses said absence. Therefore, it is, in some way, dependent upon the matter. And, since the matter is finite, it cannot be grounded in anything but the finite. (A complex, but understandable, premise - I think.)
  1. Therefore there has to be an absolute and timeless actual reality that transcends all potential states (irrespective of their number) so that its being is not preceded by any potentiality; and thus not violating the first and second premise.
In “3” you affirm the prior two premises and conclude that there must be an existing cause/maker/creator. And, that entity must exist prior to any and all acts of causation, making, creating, or even happening - including any kinds of quantum fluctuations, I presume. Everything physical, and/or material, must have a prior actual (already in actuality) real cause that is capable of presenting matter, or a subject, that expresses the nothingness of privation (potentiality). Plus, it must not only be “present,” beforehand, but also, it must be that which makes the “matter” have absence.

I didn’t have much time to give about your argument proper thought, so, please correct me where I’m off.

God bless,
jd
 
It says that the closest thing that we have that can be thought of as “nothingness,” is privation. Privation is not a thing. It is an absence, quite like nothingness. Yet, we see substantial change every day. The growth of a leaf exemplifies plant cells undergoing substantial change. So, instead of exemplifying nothingness as a thing (of some sort?), it is best exemplified as the “privation of any-thing and every-thing.”

So, because privation is the absence of things in the order of matter, including, perhaps, the order of the “physical,” nothingness cannot obtain privation. That would be an absurdity. It is “privation,” i.e., the absence of any and all things AND the absence of thing-ness.
jd
 
Wow. If anyone else had said this…I’d have concluded they were trolling. Please…tell us what logical validity is. haha I’m never gonna get over this, undergrads wouldn’t say this kind of stuff.
Read the rest of the post that you decided to leave out. Or are you incapable of aknowledging that which refutes your arrogance?:rolleyes:

Perhaps you can’t stand the idea of a Christian being more inteligent than you.
 
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