Chesterbelloc economics and other Catholic visions of economic justice?

[flameburns623]

Hi folks!

I know a couple of people who are into Distributism, frequently advocated by GK Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc. I know that Dorothy Day had her own vision of Catholic social justice. I know that most forms of Liberation Theology are out-of-bounds because they are so closely aligned with atheistic philosophies. Can anyone suggest good books and/or articles to read or good links to check out respecting Catholic economic theories of social justice? Thanks folks!

 

[GKC]

Hi folks!

I know a couple of people who are into Distributism, frequently advocated by GK Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc. I know that Dorothy Day had her own vision of Catholic social justice. I know that most forms of Liberation Theology are out-of-bounds because they are so closely aligned with atheistic philosophies. Can anyone suggest good books and/or articles to read or good links to check out respecting Catholic economic theories of social justice? Thanks folks!

On Belloc and Chesterton, interesting material may be found in G.K.CHESTERTON: RADICAL POPULIST/Margaret Canovan, and G.K. CHESTERTON AND HILAIRE BELLOC:THE BATTLE AGAINST MODERNITY/Jay Corrin. Corrin also has a good article (“Catholic Writers on the Right”) in THE CHESTERTON REVIEW, Vol XXV, nos.1 & 2, Feb/May 1999.

GKC

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Hi folks!

I know a couple of people who are into Distributism, frequently advocated by GK Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc. I know that Dorothy Day had her own vision of Catholic social justice. I know that most forms of Liberation Theology are out-of-bounds because they are so closely aligned with atheistic philosophies. Can anyone suggest good books and/or articles to read or good links to check out respecting Catholic economic theories of social justice? Thanks folks!

How about US Congress? When congress passes laws which waiver rules for business under X (dollars, employee, profits, etc) that is Distributism. A good example is employee health care, OSHA, EPA, small companies have exemption rules to operate under. Pure Capitalism has a problem with competition going until few capitalist are left but they own tremendous amounts. (See Robber Barons) So the US actually practices distributism, to some extent.

 

[flameburns623]

How about US Congress? When congress passes laws which waiver rules for business under X (dollars, employee, profits, etc) that is Distributism. A good example is employee health care, OSHA, EPA, small companies have exemption rules to operate under. Pure Capitalism has a problem with competition going until few capitalist are left but they own tremendous amounts. (See Robber Barons) So the US actually practices distributism, to some extent.

With all due respect, from what little I know of distributism, your post is entirely incorrect. You have distributism confused with liberalism, social democracy, or socialism. Among other things, distributism as it has been explained to me focuses very much on creating voluntary agrarian and cottage-industry societies which do NOT involved large federal-type governerning bodies.

I’m certain I am getting some elements of this wrongly but the few people i know who have read about or considered Chesterbelloc speculations were very clear that Chesterton and Belloc opposed the sort of centralized political powers you are suggesting are part of your understanding of ‘distributism’.

GKC: Thanks to you for your contributions. As always when you weight in–very helpful.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

With all due respect, from what little I know of distributism, your post is entirely incorrect. You have distributism confused with liberalism, social democracy, or socialism. Among other things, distributism as it has been explained to me focuses very much on creating voluntary agrarian and cottage-industry societies which do NOT involved large federal-type governerning bodies.

I’m certain I am getting some elements of this wrongly but the few people i know who have read about or considered Chesterbelloc speculations were very clear that Chesterton and Belloc opposed the sort of centralized political powers you are suggesting are part of your understanding of ‘distributism’.

GKC: Thanks to you for your contributions. As always when you weight in–very helpful.

Well fell free to reject if desired however consider :

“agrarian” these guys lived when agriculture was 90% of the economy. Their objective was not to have land owned by government nor capitalist (plantations). This is done as mentioned eariler by personal tax exemptions for X acres of land, then high taxes are placed on non-exempt land. Example 40 acres a person; so a family of 5 can be tax free up to 200 acres.

"cottage-industry societies " means small company

 

[flameburns623]

Well fell free to reject if desired however consider :

“agrarian” these guys lived when agriculture was 90% of the economy. Their objective was not to have land owned by government nor capitalist (plantations). This is done as mentioned eariler by personal tax exemptions for X acres of land, then high taxes are placed on non-exempt land. Example 40 acres a person; so a family of 5 can be tax free up to 200 acres.

"cottage-industry societies " means small company

My understanding is that distributism opposed our current systems of taxation. At least, the people who I know who have read a bit on distributism oppose all forms of income tax or real estate taxes, favoring things such as import taxes and natiional sales taxes instead.

Their vision of distributism would entail the abolition of large cities, large corporations, large factories, large centralized governments, large systems of banking and so forth.

We’d live in villages where most people would support themselves and their communities in some sort of quasi-self-sufficient manner.

Rather like Amish, minus the absolute allergy to any sort of modern technology. Such a system would be LESS technological than our current system, but we would not consciously reject all forms of technology out-of-hand.

 

[GKC]

With all due respect, from what little I know of distributism, your post is entirely incorrect. You have distributism confused with liberalism, social democracy, or socialism. Among other things, distributism as it has been explained to me focuses very much on creating voluntary agrarian and cottage-industry societies which do NOT involved large federal-type governerning bodies.

I’m certain I am getting some elements of this wrongly but the few people i know who have read about or considered Chesterbelloc speculations were very clear that Chesterton and Belloc opposed the sort of centralized political powers you are suggesting are part of your understanding of ‘distributism’.

GKC: Thanks to you for your contributions. As always when you weight in–very helpful.

You are very welcome, and thank you…

And you are correct about Distributism. OTOH, there were, as discussed in some of the stuff I mentioned, other sorts of RC social action programs related to Distributism.

DIstributism is the portion of Chesterton and Belloc that interests me the least.

GKC

 

[Texas_Roofer]

My understanding is that distributism opposed our current systems of taxation. At least, the people who I know who have read a bit on distributism oppose all forms of income tax or real estate taxes, favoring things such as import taxes and natiional sales taxes instead.

Their vision of distributism would entail the abolition of large cities, large corporations, large factories, large centralized governments, large systems of banking and so forth.

We’d live in villages where most people would support themselves and their communities in some sort of quasi-self-sufficient manner.

Rather like Amish, minus the absolute allergy to any sort of modern technology. Such a system would be LESS technological than our current system, but we would not consciously reject all forms of technology out-of-hand.

Well again you can dismiss the infrmation if you would like but again I think you are confusing the time period with the philosophy. Example national income tax ~1940 (after their writings) proir to that people believed import taxes improved your economy by keeping out competition and raising free money.

 

[flameburns623]

You are very welcome, and thank you…

And you are correct about Distributism. OTOH, there were, as discussed in some of the stuff I mentioned, other sorts of RC social action programs related to Distributism.

Distributism is the portion of Chesterton and Belloc that interests me the least.

GKC

Thanks, GKC.

I am stone ignorant of the details of what Chesterton or Belloc believed, apart from a number of discussions with people who have read them and endorse them, and apart from a wikipedia article or two on the subject.

Unfortunately, certain elements within Roman Catholicism have identified so closely with one partisan wing of the American political spectrum that they reject anything which does not underpin and endorse that wing of the political spectrum. And, the pundits on that side of the spectrum unfairly and persistently confound political liberalism, social democracy, socialism, and Marxism as though each of these political ideologies are synonymous one with another. I suspect that these same people would put the distributism theories in the same basket.

I try to be a little more nuanced and careful with things. I must confess to being at least somewhat interested in the subject at the moment. One of things that may startle some of the critics who have already weighed in is that the friends I know who have explored these ideas consider themselves social and religious conservatives (and traditionalist Roman Catholics in some cases), and think that distributism could by a system which would affirm and support conservative Christian values and beliefs.

 

[GKC]

Thanks, GKC.

I am stone ignorant of the details of what Chesterton or Belloc believed, apart from a number of discussions with people who have read them and endorse them, and apart from a wikipedia article or two on the subject.

Unfortunately, certain elements within Roman Catholicism have identified so closely with one partisan wing of the American political spectrum that they reject anything which does not underpin and endorse that wing of the political spectrum. And, the pundits on that side of the spectrum unfairly and persistently confound political liberalism, social democracy, socialism, and Marxism as though each of these political ideologies are synonymous one with another. I suspect that these same people would put the distributism theories in the same basket.

I try to be a little more nuanced and careful with things. I must confess to being at least somewhat interested in the subject at the moment. One of things that may startle some of the critics who have already weighed in is that the friends I know who have explored these ideas consider themselves social and religious conservatives (and traditionalist Roman Catholics in some cases), and think that distributism could by a system which would affirm and support conservative Christian values and beliefs.

Your last sentence is so correct that some scholars class the whole movement as on the Right.

To me, it is mainly a dead end idea that drained Chesterton of much of his vitality and funds (along with making G.K.'S WEEKLY a house organ for the movement).

GKC

(Added)

OTOH, Corrin’s article (which I just glanced over, it not being a favorite topic of mine) in THE CHESTERTON REVIEW, cited above, makes the distinction between the Right-leaning Distributists, who followed Belloc, and the more liberal ones who were more Chestertonian. Nothing is simple.

GKC

 

[Brigadoon]

radioromancatholic.com sometimes has programs that discuss Distributism.