Chewing gum

[twoangels]

I have a few questions on gluttony. Is gluttony a mortal or venial sin and do we have to confess every time we eat a tasty meal. Can someone help me understand how seasoning your food is evil and sinful?

New Advent: “Gluttony is in general a venial sin in so far forth as it is an undue indulgence in a thing which is in itself neither good nor bad. Of course it is obvious that a different estimate would have to be given of one so wedded to the pleasures of the table as to absolutely and without qualification live merely to eat and drink, so minded as to be of the number of those, described by the Apostle St. Paul, “whose god is their belly” (Philippians 3:19). Such a one would be guilty of mortal sin.”

I want to know what happened between St. Gregory the Great listing the capital sin as lust (just behind gluttony) and the teaching about lust that :"Every such criminal indulgence is a mortal sin, provided of course, it be voluntary in itself and fully deliberate. " This characteristic that every indulgence of lust is gravely sinful seems unique to this vice only. Where as Pride, envy, wrath, etc require much more criteria to weigh out the gravity of the moral situation. It can be argued that sexual sin is unique because it is so closely related to the creation of human persons and would need to reflect the sacredness of human life itself. Whereas gluttony does not.

My husband, who is a big fan of medieval history, said that it was taken that of the grave sins most people go to Hell for, it is sin resulting from lust, but it is the outer boarder. The more grave sins become, the less people there are who were guilty of it. So for instance, Dante’s inferno describes the Hell for the lustful as an outer ring of Hell, whereas in the center of Hell there is simply the devil eating Judas. Certainly Dante’s inferno isn’t to be taken as Canonical, but there seems to be a distinct shift in attitudes which really confuses me. Maybe its only an apparant contradiction and not an actual contradiction.

But, yeah, I have a very hard time swollening the idea that seasoning your food is sinful. Certainly, you don’t want to use too much salt because its bad for you. But then that’s another thing. Christ calls us the salt of the earth. He called as that because back then salt preserved food. But the comparison today sounds odd since the message is today is “Avoid salt.”

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I know what the seven deadly sins are not acts of sin. However, acting on them is sinful, so you’re still missing the point.

Obviously…

I haven’t seen any examinations of conscience that asks “did I chew gum”.

My first response to you was that you can tell if something is sinful is by seeing if any of the ten commandments were broken, you replied if I were denying that the 7 deadly sins were sins.

If someone is gluttonous, he/ or she would be more apt to break the Commandments that deal with stealing or coveting.

If someone struggles with lust, they’d be more apt to break the commandments dealing with coveting and adultery. If you check the examination of conscious regarding the 6th and 9th commandments, all are still considered mortal sins…

The catechism really doesn’t speak much about gluttony except for listing it as one of the Capital sins.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The Divine Commedy, especially the Inferno has specific political undertones, more so than a theological reference.

In the innermost circle of hell, he has Judas, but also Brutus and Cassius. He places the betrayal of Jesus at an equal level as the betrayal of Julius Caesar.

The Lustful were in the second circle of hell, the gluttonous in the 3rd. It has been said it was a reflection more of himself…Dante was a bit of a lustful fellow, in fact he faints after hearing the tale of Paolo and Francesca.

Why does he faint? Well because Paolo and Francesco were reading a romance before they started their affair. The romance novel ignited the spark, “Quando legemmo del desiato riso” Dante faints for guilt, because he was a writer, and perhaps his writings could have caused lust.

He didn’t want to give himself a very deep penalty.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Chewing gum in church is definitely wrong. I think it also breaks the fast, correct?

But the issue wasn’t chewing gum in church – the OP had to do with the possible sinfulness of chewing gum** at all**. Ever. Anywhere. Which seems by some to now be equated with the sin of gluttony, God knoweth how.

 

[garn9173]

I have a few questions on gluttony. Is gluttony a mortal or venial sin and do we have to confess every time we eat a tasty meal. Can someone help me understand how seasoning your food is evil and sinful?

Seriously? If this were to be true, Catholics with Italian descent would quite literally be in the confessional after every single meal (I single out Italian’s only because of their known love of food & cooking).

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Seriously? If this were to be true, Catholics with Italian descent would quite literally be in the confessional after every single meal (I single out Italian’s only because of their known love of food & cooking).

Well as an Italian, we appreciate food!

We prepare it with love.

God gave us all the ingredients, the fruits the veggies, the meats. How would preparing a good and tasty meal, especially for others (I cook for my family for guests, when I’m alone It’s can of soup, leftovers, lean cuisine) be gluttonous?

I think it’s appreciative to God for the food to prepare it the best way possible.

What was drummed into my head by my Nonna, “wasting food offends Il Signore”

My Nonna lived through 2 World Wars. Sometimes dinner was bread and boiled chicory. Always, “Signore, ti ringrazio per questa bella mangiata” “Lord, I thank you for this lovely meal.”

 

[twoangels]

Obviously…

I haven’t seen any examinations of conscience that asks “did I chew gum”.

My first response to you was that you can tell if something is sinful is by seeing if any of the ten commandments were broken, you replied if I were denying that the 7 deadly sins were sins.

If someone is gluttonous, he/ or she would be more apt to break the Commandments that deal with stealing or coveting.

The 10 commandments gets at the core of objectively immoral behavior and tends to highlight in your mind mortal sins. Focusing on the 7 deadly sins can draw your attention to more venial sins and moral imperfections. This gets into the area of doing actions that may be morally good or neutral, but which are motivated by vice rather than virtue. This is ultimately where we face the reality that we sin everyday, and that God often only reveals only some of our sins, for if we saw them all we’d likely all fall into dispair.

I had several periods in my life (in fact, its mostly constant) where I can say no to every question on those examination of conscience sheets. I’m very good at being motivated to behave well out of a sense of spiritual pride. In fact, when I do commit other sins, I typically have to trick my mind into believing at least temporarily that its not sinful. This makes examining my conscience for other sins difficult because I can’t tell if I’m deceiving myself or being overscruplous.

My husband says, when he commits a grave sin, he just decides for that moment that he doesn’t care. Aahh!! I have too much spiritual pride not to care. Deception is my only route. So then my question becomes “Wait then if I do this, this can’t be a mortal sin because of removed my capacity to give full consent of the will.” But then I dwell on the fact that the greatest sin is Pride anyway so I’m a far more sinful person than the people I can tend to think I’m morally superior to. If I go to Hell, it’ll be pride. I’ve got the vice the Pharisees had. But the nice thing about the 7 deadly sins is that its easier to identify my true motivations than it is just objectively look at my behavior. I’ve had several people come up to me and tell me “If you’re not going to Heaven, no one is.” Aahh…do you have to build up my spiritual pride? Where is that litany of humility?

I have confessed having fantasies of being canonized. Its absolutely horrible. And then when I do commit other sins that I can’t deny as sinful, I freak out. One time I simply felt that because I didn’t deserve Heaven, I should make it so that I can’t go. It was the only time I actually committed what are typically considered the typical greivious acts (I didn’t have a single desire to do them other than to punish myself) and I did it specifically because I thought God was crazy for loving me and I needed to motivate Him to stop.

Now how exactly do the ten commandments fit into examining that sort of conscience?! Huh?

 

[twoangels]

Seriously? If this were to be true, Catholics with Italian descent would quite literally be in the confessional after every single meal (I single out Italian’s only because of their known love of food & cooking).

Not everything saints write is infallible. The Church upholds the categories of the seven deadly sins, but since the seven deadly sins are based upon a perversion of natural desires, I think its very easy to confuse aspects of the natural desire with the vice. You throw the baby out with the bath water.

I also think that when you are an individual habitually caught up into such sins in a specific category, its very easy to get frustrated with the good aspects of your drive. For instance, my last post was about how prideful I am. Well, I also have a lot of false humility and for years considered it immoral to “pride” myself in anything. This allowed me to deceive myself into believing I was humble.

My husband tells me that Aquinas loved eating to a fault and often ate while composing the Summa. So if you imagine a guy who loves food so much that he gets grumpy and rude to people for interupting his tasty enjoyment of all the spices and seasonings on his food that he will just adore, you can see where he might realize at least for himself gluttony can find an expression in season of food. But this would be distinct from someone who seasoned food in a balanced manner while putting their heart into it. This person not struggling with gluttony in this way may be friendly and socialable while eating.

Listening to their statements can be like listening to an acoholic talk about how sinful it is even to touch alcohol.

Still, I do not know if Aquinas acknowledges such distinctions. He seems to just say such things violate right reason.

 

[twoangels]

The Divine Commedy, especially the Inferno has specific political undertones, more so than a theological reference.

In the innermost circle of hell, he has Judas, but also Brutus and Cassius. He places the betrayal of Jesus at an equal level as the betrayal of Julius Caesar.

The Lustful were in the second circle of hell, the gluttonous in the 3rd. It has been said it was a reflection more of himself…Dante was a bit of a lustful fellow, in fact he faints after hearing the tale of Paolo and Francesca.

Why does he faint? Well because Paolo and Francesco were reading a romance before they started their affair. The romance novel ignited the spark, “Quando legemmo del desiato riso” Dante faints for guilt, because he was a writer, and perhaps his writings could have caused lust.

He didn’t want to give himself a very deep penalty.

I still think you’re ignoring the fact that St. Gregory the Great listed the seven deadly sins in a hierachy with lust being the least grave. Like I quoted previously though, he got the list from another person who had gluttony the least grave with lust being the second least grave.

Perhaps it is that for centuries people just didn’t want to penalize themselves, but our world today seems to obsess about lust while it almost as good as ignores gluttony. It seems to be very strange to me that expressions of lust could never be venially sinful. I’m not talking about fornication, masturbation, pornography and the specific lists the Church clearly defends. I’m just talking about the general statement that all actions motivated by lust are gravely sinful. Sinful yes, but all gravely. The logic of why they’d be sinful seems to fall under why seasoning food could potentially be sinful.

I’ve also noticed that obsessing about sexual sins often makes it harder to see the sins in other areas. I let myself off the hook for being a picky eater, for spending too much time on CAF and facebook, I harbor a sexual thought in my mind for a minute longer than it takes to push it aside, and I’m in mortal sin? As a teenager, I’m waking up gradually from a full night’s sleep in the middle of a sexual dream. Waking up isn’t sudden and once I’m fully awake I start wondering “When did I have use of my will? Did I wait too long to stop it? I think I may have laid in bed for a minute longer before I decided I needed to get out of bed to stop the dream.” How many times did I confess it as “I’m not sure about full consent of the will but just in case, this is what happened.”

Meanwhile look at these forums. Look at the dominant topics. Its all sex. Its rarely about the morality of expressing wrath toward your spouse. No one is going around insisting that harboring an angry thought is mortally sinful. Even if people are like “Oh well you fought it as evidence that you only harbored it for a minute. You’re being overscruplous” of which topics are people dissecting the sins and circumstances down to the smallest details?

We should be thinking about the rest of the 6 capital sins. We should be constantly seeking to educate our consciences of all of them rather than acting like sexual pleasure is the more morally corrupting power on the planet all while pointing to the Theology of the Body as evidence that we’re not. Maybe JPII wasn’t, but maybe we are. Maybe the actual Church teaching is well balanced, but we’re not and how we learn our faith is imperfect no matter where we grow up or what era we grow up in.

 

[LemonAndLime]

This thread is STILL going?

…

 

[andrewstx]

I agree lemon, this whole thread has scruplosity written all over it.

 

[cynic]

I fail to see why God would make eating (sensually) enjoyable if that enjoyment is gluttony.

 

[Bookcat]

Gum chewing can be reasonable and without any sin (can be without any gluttony).

It can be for the purpose of “recreation” (which is important for our life…can even be fore your breath --a good social thing) etc etc and can also assist in other aspects of life.

Individual acts of overeating…intemperance (gluttony in this sense) are “ordinarily” a “venial matter” for venial sin…

(though it can be grave such as when one is getting drunk where one looses ones reason is mortal for example (or if it leads to other mortal sins)…or uncorrected habits of eating in a way that will “seriously harm ones health or life” --at least in the “short term” that is…)

As Paul noted everything created by God is good, and is not to be rejected but received with thanksgiving ( see 1 Tim 4:3)…but we are to live in “moderation”…

We need to seek to grow in the virtue of temperance…

Catechism:

1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: "Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart."72 Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: "Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites."73 In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought "to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world."74

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm#I

 

[Bookcat]

Gum chewing can be reasonable and without any sin (can be without any gluttony).

It can be for the purpose of “recreation” (which is important for our life…can even be fore your breath --a good social thing) etc etc and can also assist in other aspects of life.

Individual acts of overeating…intemperance (gluttony in this sense) are “ordinarily” a “venial matter” for venial sin…

(though it can be grave such as when one is getting drunk where one looses ones reason is mortal for example (or if it leads to other mortal sins)…or uncorrected habits of eating in a way that will “seriously harm ones health or life” --at least in the “short term” that is…)

As Paul noted everything created by God is good, and is not to be rejected but received with thanksgiving ( see 1 Tim 4:3)…but we are to live in “moderation”…

We need to seek to grow in the virtue of temperance…

Catechism:

1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: "Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart."72 Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: "Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites."73 In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought "to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world."74

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm#I

 

[manualman]

I fail to see why God would make eating (sensually) enjoyable if that enjoyment is gluttony.

It’s not the enjoyment of food that make a glutton, it is the disordered attachment to it.

IMO, gluttony almost always has physical symptoms. If you ain’t fat, ain’t unhealthy and ain’t puking up food to stay that way, you probably aren’t a mortally sinful glutton.

On the other hand, I DO have a bit of overhang on my belt, so I’m not spotless and pure either.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I fail to see why God would make eating (sensually) enjoyable if that enjoyment is gluttony.

I think the general rule is that if you’re eating deliberately too much - e.g. as much as you can eat at a buffet, or wanting to have more slices of cake than anyone else, you might be guilty of it.

I don’t think being overweight means you are guilty of gluttony. Not every overweight person is fat purely because they eat too much. Portion sizes are only one part of it - you can still eat “healthy” portions of “unhealthy” food and gain weight.

 

[manualman]

I’m not qualified to speak for others. But I can for sure say that my overhanging gut is a symptom of a bit of gluttinousness on my part. There’s an awful lot of empty Chips Ahoy packages in landfills somewhere standing ready to accuse me if I were to try to claim otherwise…

 

[twoangels]

You do realize that I’m asking “why it isn’t” not “is it”?

 

[Catholic90]

Seriously?

 

[Bookcat]

You do realize that I’m asking “why it isn’t” not “is it”?

Could there be an overindulgence in chewing gum. Sure like other things.

Is simply chewing gum per se gluttony – not per se. It can be for various good reasons including helping in ones recreation etc as noted. That is one reason why.